Exactly. Yet it still can't withstand household water pressure and doesn't come with any sort of PRV built in. Why should a homebrew setup come with this equipment?
Failure of Brewha BIAC
- Thread starter jeffreybandel
- Start date
Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:
Exactly. Yet it still can't withstand household water pressure and doesn't come with any sort of PRV built in. Why should a homebrew setup come with this equipment?
since the OP is afraid of debris so had all top ports blocked, I'd suggest a home made spunding valve on co2 inlet since they can be set from 0-100 psi.
i'd then probaly ferment with just the spunding valve at 3psi to get some carbbing durring ferment.
now that we have general idea what whent wrong, this probaly back on my future equipment wish list.
jeffreybandel
Well-Known Member
Because it makes sense and would make the system safer???
The user limiting the pressure before using it makes sense to me.
As I've said previously - one person will configure this system different than the next person. BREWHA informs people of the operating pressures that the vessel is rated for, and expects that you will operate it within those pressures. If you exceed those pressures, that's your own fault. It's not a fault of the design; everything is there to allow you to prevent a vacuum or to prevent over pressurizing. You need to use one of the many options to prevent it from happening.
geoffey
Well-Known Member
This is a very interesting thread to me. I've had my eye on this product for quite some time. Not planning an immediate purchase, but in the next 12-18 months I'll probably be buying another conical and I really like the idea of this product. So that being said, I'm extremely interested in whether or not they do anything further to make things right with this customer.
There have been a number of posts indicating that the end user should have known not to do this or that. The logic behind most of these posts assumes, I believe, that an end user have a level of knowledge similar to someone running professional brewing equipment. And that's just not the level that needs to be catered to when selling to home brewers, IMHO. I could completely see myself, and many others, buying this product and not doing anything to stop the jacket from being put under more pressure than it should - because there is simply not enough information given (i.e. no written manual, etc.) to keep you from doing it. Those who have more experience or think like engineers will of course avoid these issue, while others won't.
The way I see it, it doesn't matter if this product collapsed due to water pressure or a vacuum. Both could have been avoided if the manufacturer had either given clear instructions for use or built in simple safety measures as suggested by many others in this thread. What is being sold here is a fairly complicated "system". It's not just a conical. If I cave in my conical due to creating a vacuum I can see the manufacture not replacing it for free because I'm using it outside of the intended use (i.e. cooling vs.fermentation ). But THIS product is DESIGNED to both cool and ferment. If it fails and collapses during cooling because a vacuum was formed, and there wasn't adequate instruction on how to avoid that (by keeping a valve open for instance) then that's on the manufacturer. If it collapsed because it was connected to greater than 15psi, and it isn't CLEARLY stated in the manual or on the product itself (a tag tied onto the inlet saying "do not connect to water hose greater than 15psi" or "must use a safety valve if connecting to household water system greater than 15psi") then this is also a manufacturer issue.
The point is, as HOUSEHOLD consumers, home brewers have a reasonable expectation to be given clear instructions on how to use any manufacturer's given product. Think of it this way: you buy a new washing machine and connect it to your household water system through the hoses supplied by the machine's manufacturer. It then gets destroyed completely because you didn't put a pressure relieve valve in place and the manufacturer responds saying they'll give you 15% off a future purchase... how would you respond?
There have been a number of posts indicating that the end user should have known not to do this or that. The logic behind most of these posts assumes, I believe, that an end user have a level of knowledge similar to someone running professional brewing equipment. And that's just not the level that needs to be catered to when selling to home brewers, IMHO. I could completely see myself, and many others, buying this product and not doing anything to stop the jacket from being put under more pressure than it should - because there is simply not enough information given (i.e. no written manual, etc.) to keep you from doing it. Those who have more experience or think like engineers will of course avoid these issue, while others won't.
The way I see it, it doesn't matter if this product collapsed due to water pressure or a vacuum. Both could have been avoided if the manufacturer had either given clear instructions for use or built in simple safety measures as suggested by many others in this thread. What is being sold here is a fairly complicated "system". It's not just a conical. If I cave in my conical due to creating a vacuum I can see the manufacture not replacing it for free because I'm using it outside of the intended use (i.e. cooling vs.fermentation ). But THIS product is DESIGNED to both cool and ferment. If it fails and collapses during cooling because a vacuum was formed, and there wasn't adequate instruction on how to avoid that (by keeping a valve open for instance) then that's on the manufacturer. If it collapsed because it was connected to greater than 15psi, and it isn't CLEARLY stated in the manual or on the product itself (a tag tied onto the inlet saying "do not connect to water hose greater than 15psi" or "must use a safety valve if connecting to household water system greater than 15psi") then this is also a manufacturer issue.
The point is, as HOUSEHOLD consumers, home brewers have a reasonable expectation to be given clear instructions on how to use any manufacturer's given product. Think of it this way: you buy a new washing machine and connect it to your household water system through the hoses supplied by the machine's manufacturer. It then gets destroyed completely because you didn't put a pressure relieve valve in place and the manufacturer responds saying they'll give you 15% off a future purchase... how would you respond?
JKoravos
Well-Known Member
Because there's a difference between a product for a commercial environment and consumer product. Commercial process equipment is used and installed by professional technical personnel. A 10 bbl jacketed tank will be part of a larger system and a qualified person is required to design the system and specify the equipment that will be used to ensure that the vessel operates within the stated operating limits. The same expectation is not there for consumer products. That's a fundamental assumption of consumer product design. You must make your products usable and safe for an unskilled person.
In this case the manufacturer did not even supply operating instructions for the equipment, so its difficult for me to blame the end user for anything that may have gone wrong. That's particularly true if this was a collapse due to vacuum failure, as it appears there is no mention of that issue even in the 'blog' about the equipment. Someone can correct me if i'm wrong there, as i did not read the product page blog. If there was a manual that said not to block the lid during cooling that would be a completely different story.
trimixdiver1
Well-Known Member
For the money spent a vacuum breaker/ relief and a PRV on the jacket should come standard. Brewha made this a system, as a system it should have clear warnings and or components to protect it from misuse. Dickmann has a weighted relief on the lid designed to open when pressure goes above 3 psi.
With a potential for worse to happen from misuse, why wouldn't those safety devices be installed?
If I buy a hot water tank, is it my job to install a PRV? No! It comes with it, as well as a soft spot in the tank incase of a event.
Brewha half assed this and is trying to distance themselves.
With a potential for worse to happen from misuse, why wouldn't those safety devices be installed?
If I buy a hot water tank, is it my job to install a PRV? No! It comes with it, as well as a soft spot in the tank incase of a event.
Brewha half assed this and is trying to distance themselves.
geoffey
Well-Known Member
So, just checking out their website... looks like lots of this info is is actually on there. There's a page on their site about how to keep the conical from deforming, and there's a water pressure regulator for the inlet that they sell on their website. Not sure if this info was available when the OP bought their setup or not, but it is there now.
BREWHAEquipmentCo
Member
- Joined
- Sep 8, 2014
- Messages
- 7
- Reaction score
- 8
This is Nathan from BREWHA. I fully support my products as many customers on this forum have attested.
The jackets on the BREWHA Boil Kettle and Jacketed 3-in-1 conical allow brewers to have chemical-free sanitation and reduced equipment by providing a means to chill wort after the boil is completed, right inside the 3-in-1. It also provides a convenient and easy means for regulation of fermentation temperature. With it, additional chillers are not needed which add cost, time, and increased risk of microbial contamination. These jackets and vessels are not designed to withstand high pressure. High pressure would require the use of thicker steel and require pressure certification, which would push the price of the equipment significantly higher.
I make it very clear on my website, emails sent to customers and through other marketing that the vessel pressure should not go over 3psi and the vessels exits should not be restricted in any way (other than a short blow-off hose which does not let pressure or a vacuum occur). It is the brewers responsibility to ensure that this is adhered to. If this is followed, the vessel will not deform from pressure or vacuum.
Aside from the above, the customer in this situation did not provide any proof of a blockage caused by the design or a manufacturers fault. When I asked for some evidence that I could show my supplier, I was sent a photo of a few flecks in his hand of what appears to be welding/carbon soot that he had removed from the wall inside the jacket, where it cannot be cleaned from polishing. There were no pictures or evidence provided of actual blockage that would cause pressure buildup. I asked about the possibility of a vacuum forming and he responded that a cap was resting on the port. If it was just the cap, and not sealed, air should have been permitted to enter to eliminate any vacuum so I did not conclude it was a vacuum. Twice I asked for photographs showing the brewing setup when it happened to try and understand the situation more and work towards finding a probable cause and solution, and neither time were these provided.
Based on the evidence I received, I responded to him several days ago proposing one of three courses of action. The first was for him to take the vessel to a metal repair shop such as an autobody or metal fab shop that could push the inside back out so the Mash Colander could still fit. The second was to purchase a replacement 20 gallon jacketed 3-in-1 vessel that I offered to him at below my cost. The third was to ship it all back, and I would have a shop here push it back out and refund 100% of his purchase less the cost of having the vessel fixed here.
The jackets on the BREWHA Boil Kettle and Jacketed 3-in-1 conical allow brewers to have chemical-free sanitation and reduced equipment by providing a means to chill wort after the boil is completed, right inside the 3-in-1. It also provides a convenient and easy means for regulation of fermentation temperature. With it, additional chillers are not needed which add cost, time, and increased risk of microbial contamination. These jackets and vessels are not designed to withstand high pressure. High pressure would require the use of thicker steel and require pressure certification, which would push the price of the equipment significantly higher.
I make it very clear on my website, emails sent to customers and through other marketing that the vessel pressure should not go over 3psi and the vessels exits should not be restricted in any way (other than a short blow-off hose which does not let pressure or a vacuum occur). It is the brewers responsibility to ensure that this is adhered to. If this is followed, the vessel will not deform from pressure or vacuum.
Aside from the above, the customer in this situation did not provide any proof of a blockage caused by the design or a manufacturers fault. When I asked for some evidence that I could show my supplier, I was sent a photo of a few flecks in his hand of what appears to be welding/carbon soot that he had removed from the wall inside the jacket, where it cannot be cleaned from polishing. There were no pictures or evidence provided of actual blockage that would cause pressure buildup. I asked about the possibility of a vacuum forming and he responded that a cap was resting on the port. If it was just the cap, and not sealed, air should have been permitted to enter to eliminate any vacuum so I did not conclude it was a vacuum. Twice I asked for photographs showing the brewing setup when it happened to try and understand the situation more and work towards finding a probable cause and solution, and neither time were these provided.
Based on the evidence I received, I responded to him several days ago proposing one of three courses of action. The first was for him to take the vessel to a metal repair shop such as an autobody or metal fab shop that could push the inside back out so the Mash Colander could still fit. The second was to purchase a replacement 20 gallon jacketed 3-in-1 vessel that I offered to him at below my cost. The third was to ship it all back, and I would have a shop here push it back out and refund 100% of his purchase less the cost of having the vessel fixed here.
trimixdiver1
Well-Known Member
From their site, shows that they don't understand the basic physics going on in their product
"5. Ensure that the water can exit the vessel faster than it is being put into the vessel by keeping the exit fully open and restricting inflow water. (If water is rushing/spraying out the exit, it is very likely that pressure is building up.)"
If water is leaving a vessel faster than it supplies the vessel than it will never fill up. If you filling from the bottom it has to discharge at the same rate it's entering the jacket, so that statement is incorrect
"5. Ensure that the water can exit the vessel faster than it is being put into the vessel by keeping the exit fully open and restricting inflow water. (If water is rushing/spraying out the exit, it is very likely that pressure is building up.)"
If water is leaving a vessel faster than it supplies the vessel than it will never fill up. If you filling from the bottom it has to discharge at the same rate it's entering the jacket, so that statement is incorrect
trimixdiver1
Well-Known Member
Do you understand what you are doing? You have a vessel that just pulled a vacuum and probably creased the "stainless" now your going to hammer it back out? It will be very weak to say the least. As you know, most 300 series stainless is not very forgiving to being bent like you are suggesting. Why would you not provide a safety device where needed? Now you have to explain to potential customers that they need to be an engineer and provide and spec out devices to protect their investment. I hope I'm wrong, but for the price your charging and the support you provide, Brewha is subpar in my eyes. I would be ashamed if my product did this.
Watching your video you yourself raised the outlet pressure by raising the discharge hose above the discharge point in the jacket.
Gameface
Well-Known Member
If the cap was placed on the port with a gasket between, even if it was just resting there, it is VERY possible the vacuum pulled the cap tight.
I'm leaning towards vacuum causing the failure. I've seen steel containers implode like that before due to vacuum.
I'm leaning towards vacuum causing the failure. I've seen steel containers implode like that before due to vacuum.
geoffey
Well-Known Member
Nathan, many thanks for getting involved in this discussion directly, that's awesome!
So, just a suggestion: include the water pressure regulator with your product, and think more about putting some further safety features in place like a pressure release valve and vacuum relief. Have customers who want to decline these features agree to hold you harmless if their product collapses or deforms under any conditions.
Probably easier said than done, I get it. But from a consumer point of view I'd like to have some of these safety measure's built in rather than have to go out of my way to add them on myself..
geoffey
Well-Known Member
Seems about right to me too. Wouldn't a better solution be to put a sanitary filter in place to prevent the vacuum but also avoid contamination? These can be bought for a few bucks each.
also re shoot your video's to explain why the valve on the blow off port is in open position when your cooling.
too bad OP didnt give all info on op, even gave you more info that you needed when you where trying sort this out.
nathan you should look into getting these made for the biac at 3psi
https://conical-fermenter.com/Pressure-Vacuum-Relief-Valve-15PSI-1.5-Tri-Clamp.html
would prevent vacuum damage and also allow ferment under presure, with anough time in conical even 3psi will give us naturaly carbed brew durring ferment.
trimixdiver1
Well-Known Member
i know just reiterating in case Nathan skipped a page or two.
further more ability to ferment under pressure and this would be the best brew system out there. outside of a micro brewery of course.
cause of price i'm looking at grain farther when available here, with 10g keg as fermenter with cool zone cooling jacket, so can ferment under pressure, but at this ability to biac and could change my mind.
trimixdiver1
Well-Known Member
well now that more info is available, maybe nathan will give him more options to resolve this.
What he is saying is to have less restriction on the "out" side of the vessel than you do on the "in" side. If you have a 1" inlet that's dropped down to a .5" outlet, you're going to be causing pressure buildup...pretty sure that's the point he was making.
He said make sure that it CAN exit faster, not that it IS exiting faster.
This blog post covers exactly what you're talking about, and as I said before, Nathan emailed me with links to important sections of the blog when my BIAC shipped.
http://brewhaequipment.com/blogs/brewinfo/14329765-preventing-deformation-in-your-fermentor
And I'll copy/paste details since I've already posted this link before
trimixdiver1
Well-Known Member
There should be a paper manual, not several emails pointing to a blog..... Come on.....
This is a several thousand dollar piece of equipment, my Dickmann stuff even had paper manuals. Who is going to print out blog posts to reference when brewing with this?
I have read every post in this thread, and it absolutely abhors me that Brewha is not backing their product - user error or not. If there is a possibility of a user accidentally destroying the equipment - that is on the manufacturer. It's not like he pushed it off a cliff then blamed the crumpled mass on the company. He used it in good faith, and the design should incorporate different users' techniques - that is the essence of design. It's not like it's a $70 igloo cooler that he repurposed and he is claiming design failure. It's a $5k kit - probably one of the most expensive home systems available!
Trimixdiver hit the nails on the head. Brewha should replace this BIAC with white glove service, and thank him for the testing in the process.
I have been looking at different all-in-ones, and between the FOD and breha's sh!tty handling of this issue, I would easily scratch the BIAC off the list.
-BD
Trimixdiver hit the nails on the head. Brewha should replace this BIAC with white glove service, and thank him for the testing in the process.
I have been looking at different all-in-ones, and between the FOD and breha's sh!tty handling of this issue, I would easily scratch the BIAC off the list.
-BD
It wasn't "several" emails, it was ONE personal email that had multiple links to specific blog posts. IMO this is superior to a paper manual as it has the ability for more up-to-date information.
In the end, he provides you with the information. If you decide to not look at it, or not follow the provided information, that's your own fault.
Next thing you know, you'll be saying he should make you send back a signed form saying that you've read the manual..and maybe you should have the form signed by a notary
Hope the OP comes to a satisfactory agreement or solution with Brewha.
In my opinion - I don't think it is a good "Design". They took a conical, added a fancy basket, added off the shelf pump, off the shelf temp control, and off the shelf hot water element - i'm sure shipped it to China and said build this, then charge $4000 +.....really? Or...buy a good 20 gallon conical for about $700, March pump $150, Johnson Cont $100, Hot water element $20, BIAB bags $5.00, and use immersion chiller ( All Sanitary) ...around $1000 (mind you these are retail prices also) . Atleast then when I destroy it I could build 3 more - or build 4 of them and be able to brew multiple batches.
They are hanging their hats on "sanitary", I will hang mine on "Starsan".
In my opinion - I don't think it is a good "Design". They took a conical, added a fancy basket, added off the shelf pump, off the shelf temp control, and off the shelf hot water element - i'm sure shipped it to China and said build this, then charge $4000 +.....really? Or...buy a good 20 gallon conical for about $700, March pump $150, Johnson Cont $100, Hot water element $20, BIAB bags $5.00, and use immersion chiller ( All Sanitary) ...around $1000 (mind you these are retail prices also) . Atleast then when I destroy it I could build 3 more - or build 4 of them and be able to brew multiple batches.
They are hanging their hats on "sanitary", I will hang mine on "Starsan".
Simply coincidence. The only reason I visit HBT is because it has the largest thread on the BIAC.
It's a great product with great service. I have no problem supporting Nathan as the service I've received has been nothing but outstanding.
Owly055
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Feb 28, 2014
- Messages
- 3,008
- Reaction score
- 686
The fact remains that a high dollar piece of equipment shipped without a detailed use's manual....AND.... with a known vulnerability that could have been easily remedied. There are inexpensive and simple methods to prevent over pressure and the build up of vacuum. This experience should lead to an upgrade. Nobody expects an airplane to be perfect, but airworthiness directives dictate remedial actions, as do recalls on vehicles. Nobody should condemn the manufacturer for this oversight......... but making it right with the owner is step one, and prevention is step 2............ Personally I want to hear about a prompt resolution on both fronts. This will be say more about the manufacturer than if the problem had never occurred.
H.W.
H.W.
jrtroubleshooter
Member
I to have read all these post and was in the market for one of these systems. I have been following the other thread on people's success for months. Very disappointed in the failure of both the design and Nathan's response.
I know it is new design and company if it were me I would have said send it back and I will work new improvements and get them to you to test ASAP thanks for finding a problem I am glad no one was hurt.
Sorry Nathan you seemed nice to talk with in past and seemed to have good design as a start but you will not survive in such a small market without really taking care of us and making a design that is idiot proof and backing it after the sale. Please make this right!
I know it is new design and company if it were me I would have said send it back and I will work new improvements and get them to you to test ASAP thanks for finding a problem I am glad no one was hurt.
Sorry Nathan you seemed nice to talk with in past and seemed to have good design as a start but you will not survive in such a small market without really taking care of us and making a design that is idiot proof and backing it after the sale. Please make this right!
not many items come with manuals today, usually a CD so email links and blogs not much different, we not talking some simple kettle for extract brewing, we talking very advanced equipment that requires advanced knowledge, Nathan has made all the needed info available, if some one doesn't follow instructions you cant blame the designer. yes maybe certain stuff should be on stickers on product, but the info was available. maybe Nathan could make an exception cause person didn't understand basic physics of vacuum , but he doesn't have to.
if you read all the post, Nathan tried to work with person, even refused to give nathan more proof or info so nathan could work with OP, person even insisted wasnt vacuum, that was manufacturing, but every one here confirmed was vacuum just from images.
jrtroubleshooter
Member
Jason, I do not want get internet pissing match with I read Nathans response twice and it was bull****, I would be pissed if I had one of these and that was his response. Yeah the pictures would have been nice but the fact is it failed and this failure could be prevented with a couple devices to limit pressure and vacum.
there is a port that you leave open to prevent vacuum and the OP covered it up
i'll re post what jimmy posted dont cover port is first point
In order to prevent vessel deformation, all the following steps should be observed:
1. Do not put any restriction or closure on the blow-off port in the lid of the 3-in-1 during chilling as a vacuum may form which could pull the walls in.
as said maybe Nathan should put a sticker on lid the read "Do not put any restriction or closure on the blow-off port in the lid of the 3-in-1 during chilling as a vacuum may form which could pull the walls in" but we all know human nature there will still be some one whom doesn't read it and destroys there conical
Somewhere, either this thread or the other one, I said something similar to this regarding the vacuum caution stickers. We all need little reminders about things and I'm sure many of you on this very thread have left a valve open or closed at some time. Yeah, you probably didn't implode a fermenter, I get that.
Like Jimmy, I also have a medium BIAC and I am quite happy with it. I made the decision to get rid of all the diy stuff and buy a turn key system and this is the only one on the market. Nobody: not Blichmann, not Speidel, not any of the other johnny come lately automated systems are turnkey breweries. They all need fermenters. That is why I bought mine. Yes, maybe this one is not even totally turnkey since it does not come with a pressure regulator as standard equipment.
Yes, I think Nathan could have made the decision to exchange it. I think it would have prevented this thread for sure. Maybe he still will. I feel really badly for the owner of this system. He is actually one of the people I consulted via PM before I bought mine and he was happy with it. For all the naysayers, since I'm sure you have not ever seen one of these in person, you should really not bash the quality. I assure you it is of excellent quality. As Jimmy referenced earlier with a link to a 10bbl fermenter, this can happen to any brewing equipment. As I said earlier, I took the Brewery Immersion Course and when I was brewing a real batch on a 7bbl brewery, the head brewer gave me pointers about vacuums when I was working with a 15bbl unitank. He said he has seen it happen.
done it on bottling bucket got feet wet when started transfering from fermentor to bucket.
as said now that we know better what happened maybe nathan may help person more, he doesnt have to but would be nice.
Similar threads
- Locked
