Whirlpool Question

I am adding a whirlpool option to my new brew kettle, but i have a question for those of you who already whirlpool with a pump. My plan is to use a couple of 90 degree elbows connected to a stainless dip tube that will direct the flow. I will pump out of the bottom outlet of my brew kettle to the top inlet.

When i first read about whirlpooling the part that i liked the most was that i would be able to chill the entire volume of beer at once, rather than only the beer that was flowing out of the kettle, leaving the remaining volume sitting idle and hot in my brew kettle.

After reading a bit more, I am starting to get confused about everyone's process. Would the following process make sense?

1. Flame Out
2. Whirlpool through Plate Chiller for 10 minutes (or until the total volume of beer reaches the desired temperature).
3. Let beer sit in the brew kettle for 10 minutes to settle.
4. pump/gravity feed beer out of the brew kettle directly into fermenters.

I think my concern is having my full volume of wort sitting idle at 68ish degrees. Normally i dont care about the wort sitting around waiting to be chilled because the temperature is so high, but if i have already chilled it am i running solid risk of contamination? I will have a lid on the kettle, FYI.

Is this similar to what everyone else is doing or are you all whirlpooling hot, letting it settle, and then passing the settled wort through the chiller?

Thanks-
Holter

The only thing I'd change in your sequence is to start recirculating through your pump and chiller for 5 to 10 minutes before flame-out, to cook any critters lurking in that path. Otherwise, I do the same thing - except I'm recirculating around an IC.

If you want the cold break to settle you really do need to allow the chilled wort to rest after you shut off the pump, and 10 minutes under a lid isn't much of a risk to infection...

Cheers!

I do this on my rig. Pump through the hoses, pump, and plate chiller during the last 10 minutes for sanitation. Continue to whirlpool at flame out and begin chilling. Shut the whole thing off once I reach pitching temps and let it settle with a lid on for around 10min. Then pump into the carboys. The only thing I plan on adding is an inline O2 injector. Here's a pic of the tubes I got from bargainfittings.

Thanks a lot for your advice guys. My new gear should be showing up this week, ill follow your lead.

Thanks again.

Sanitize your lid, then put it on the kettle when the temp gets below 140F (the threshold for DMS formation). After that, I would say there's very little reason to worry, especially if you have a really good yeast pitch ready.

I used to worry about this too, but at the same time, others are leaving their wort to cool overnight and seem to do fine. There's probably more flexibility here than you might think initially.

I believe it would be better to whirlpool clockwise looking downward into the brew kettle in North America (same direction as the swirl when the toilet flushes). Also... Whirlpooling through a plate chiller would not provide adequate flow to be effective.

Not true. Whirlpool any direction you want and pumping through a shirron plate chiller works just fine. I have used it over and over with no problems.

oregonparamedic, my keggle setup looks just like yours, though i also have a SS braid over the outlet pickup to make sure no solids get through.. haven't had a problem yet..

have you checked the temperature of the beer exiting your plate chiller? mine comes out at pitching temperature so i typically just whirlpool the last 10 min, then at flameout i switch to pumping straight into my fermenter.. if yours does that it will save a couple min

From what I have read. Wouldn't it be better to whirlpool then chill? This would reduce the amount of break material/hops going through the chiller, thereby minimizing any potential for crud buildup in your plate chiller.

I whirlpool hot until cool and then let it spin down to leave hot and cold break in the pot. I haven't had any issues with gunk in my chiller but I'm also pretty anal about flushing and cleaning it. I have thought about adding a strainer to the pickup but just haven't found a need for it yet. I do use a hop spider and rarely use hop pellets which probably helps.

I whirlpool hot in the BK. I start with 10-15 mins left in the boil. My BK is a keggle, my pickup for the outlet is a 90 elbow with a close nipple sticking straight down against the BK wall. Depending on the recipe, I may whirlpool with hops after flame out. After flame out I let the whirlpool stop spinning for a few minutes and then the soilds form a cone in the middle. I drain SLOWLY and try not disturb the cone in the bottom of the BK. I leave as much of the solids in the kettle as possible. A keggle is perfect for this because of the the concave bottom. I drain through a plate chiller. I am pretty anal about cleaning too.

When i originally posted this thread I thought i was going to be whirlpooling within a few weeks, but then i decided to go a bit more complex with the new brew system and as such i only brewed on the system in the past two weeks.

For those of you that whirlpool, I am having a difficult time with this portion of my brewery and wanted to see if any of you had any input for me. First off, here is a picture of my setup for reference.

Here you can see my brew stand with my pumps in the middle and the plate chiller mounted under the main shelf of the system. The brew kettle is the one on the far left.


And here is the inside of the kettle. The pickup tube is the one on the left and the recirculation input is on the right.


The issue is this, if i fill up my brew kettle with water all the way to the 20 gallon line and hook up my outlet and inlet to the pump directly i get an excellent whirlpool. However, when i hook it up to the plate chiller I get basically nothing coming out of the outlet of the chiller. The path is this, Kettle -> Pump -> Chiller -> Kettle. This is with just water, no hops or Trub to clog it up. I have no idea why this is happening and its driving me crazy because i have seen other brewers with similar setups claim great success.

My current theories/solutions are this:

1. There is enough stuff already clogging up my plate chiller that the flow is so restricted that i cant get good flow through it. I should build an adapter from a garden hose to the inlet of the chiller or the outlet (the 1/2" beer connection) and run water through it at full strength to see if anything comes out of the plate chiller.

2. The plates just restrict the flow enough that I should use two pumps. The flow would be Kettle -> Pump 1 -> Chiller -> Pump 2 -> Kettle. My concern on this would be twofold. First, priming the second pump would be next to impossible, so i would pull wort out of the kettle and fill it into the lines. More important is that I would now be potentially restricting the flow on the input side of pump #2, putting that pump at risk.

3. Use the Therminator as a doorstop and instead use the herms coil as a chiller by filling it up with tap water and a bag of ice. That would save me a lot of water and would actually be the greener way of chilling.

Does anyone think i am missing something obvious here in my setup or does anyone have experience using a similar setup with great success or similar issues?

Start with the plate chiller and make sure it's not clogged up. I've had restricted flow from my chiller as well and it was a big hint to bake the gunk out of it. Move on to fittings and everything else after that.

Why do you want your wort to go back into the BK after the chiller?

surfingpl said:

Why do you want your wort to go back into the BK after the chiller?

Click to expand...

For whirlpooling and getting to the the final temperature.

I have a somewhat similar set-up as yours, and I'm pushing the liquid clockwise, and I've had good success doing a whilrpool even with hop pellets.

Looks like this:



The contraption at the bottom is a 1/2" piece of copper, and lies flat at the bottom of the keggle. Under it is a about 60ish 1/64" holes (I think - I'd need to verify the size of the smallest drill bit I have) that only pick up the wort and leave most of the trub/hops behind.

I go:

Copper ring -> valve -> hose -> pump -> hose -> therminator -> hose -> valve -> copper spiggot.

My copper spiggot is about 1/2 way up the keg.

I start a whirlpool manually (using a brew spoon), wait about 5 minutes, then I begin pumping (no water) to sanitize in place, then I turn on the water and let it cool down until the output of the therminator is at the temperature I am looking for.

Here's how my therminator is set-up:



Clockwise from top left: Waste water output, Water input with quick-connect and plastic ball valve, 1/2" hot wort input, 1/2" cold wort output + t-fitting + stainless steel thermal probe.

MC

surfingpl said:

Why do you want your wort to go back into the BK after the chiller?

Click to expand...

So that instead of having wort sitting around hot for 10+ minutes I am cooling the entire volume of wort at once. Typical setups just drain it out which leaves small portions getting chilled and the rest sits idle at near boiling temps.

oregonparamedic said:

Start with the plate chiller and make sure it's not clogged up. I've had restricted flow from my chiller as well and it was a big hint to bake the gunk out of it. Move on to fittings and everything else after that.

Click to expand...

Thanks. I think I will hook up the garden hose to the beer connections and see if that fixes the issue.

Misplaced_Canuck said:

I start a whirlpool manually (using a brew spoon), wait about 5 minutes, then I begin pumping (no water) to sanitize in place, then I turn on the water and let it cool down until the output of the therminator is at the temperature I am looking for.

Click to expand...

hmm... I've never thought about starting it manually. Do you think that helps?

jroot said:

I believe it would be better to whirlpool clockwise looking downward into the brew kettle in North America (same direction as the swirl when the toilet flushes). Also... Whirlpooling through a plate chiller would not provide adequate flow to be effective.

Click to expand...

Counterclockwise for all the Aussies out there

Holter said:

So that instead of having wort sitting around hot for 10+ minutes I am cooling the entire volume of wort at once. Typical setups just drain it out which leaves small portions getting chilled and the rest sits idle at near boiling temps.

Click to expand...

Maybe I am misunderstanding, but it sounds like you want to run wort through the chiller and then re-introduce the chilled wort to the the hot wort? This will make your cooling process take longer, will it not?

The way I see it, you either want your wort hot (at or near boiling) or cool (at or near pitching temp). The less time spent in between, the better. Like I said, maybe I am misunderstanding your goal?

surfingpl said:

Maybe I am misunderstanding, but it sounds like you want to run wort through the chiller and then re-introduce the chilled wort to the the hot wort? This will make your cooling process take longer, will it not?

The way I see it, you either want your wort hot (at or near boiling) or cool (at or near pitching temp). The less time spent in between, the better. Like I said, maybe I am misunderstanding your goal?

Click to expand...

That's what I do until I can get a a flow fast enough out of the plate chiller at the right temperature. I have a thermocouple + PID (to read the tempeature) at the outlet of the chiller and once it reaches 70F at the flow I want, I temporarily pause the pump, and divert the flow to the carboy.

The drawback with this method is that I'm also chilling the thermal mass of the keggle, which is apx 20 lbs worth of stainless steel.

MC

Holter said:

Thanks. I think I will hook up the garden hose to the beer connections and see if that fixes the issue.

Click to expand...

I use a spray nozzle directly in the wort input and output and blow it out for 10-15 seconds. Works great.

Holter said:

hmm... I've never thought about starting it manually. Do you think that helps?

Click to expand...

Well it certainly helps with mine. The trub/hops are already cone'd up in the center when I start the whirlpool. I'm not convinced that a 1/2" pipe + pump thru the plate chiller is enough flow to keep the whirlpool going.

MC

Maybe I am misunderstanding, but it sounds like you want to run wort through the chiller and then re-introduce the chilled wort to the the hot wort? This will make your cooling process take longer, will it not?

The way I see it, you either want your wort hot (at or near boiling) or cool (at or near pitching temp). The less time spent in between, the better. Like I said, maybe I am misunderstanding your goal?

Click to expand...

This site give some of the reasoning behind it.
http://www.mrmalty.com/chiller.php

mcl said:

This site give some of the reasoning behind it.
http://www.mrmalty.com/chiller.php

Click to expand...

Thanks for link, I have actually read that article before and I took the info into consideration when deciding how to set up my system. What I get from that article is that the author (JZ) is recommending getting your wort from boiling to lower than 140 F as quick as possible.

If you use an immersion chiller (the right one and the right way), you probably can get the wort down to 140 F in a couple minutes as the author suggests. But I just don't see that happening using this technique with a plate chiller. The wort that comes out of the chiller is just going back into a much larger volume of liquid that is at a much higher temperature.

If you want to use a plate chiller, I think you are better off just passing the wort through the chiller and into your fermenter. I wonder if Jamil is using a huge immersion chiller at Heretic? I bet he is using a plate chiller.

I am not arguing with your assumption, as I have not tried it myself. He does however address this on the linked page.

Q: Can't I do this same thing using my counter-flow/plate chiller?

A: Yes, you can. Several people have reported good results using their counter-flow devices. Just run the output from the device back into the kettle. You'll probably get less of a whirlpool effect, but the chilling should be just as good, no DMS and great hop character.

mcl said:

I am not arguing with your assumption, as I have not tried it myself. He does however address this on the linked page.

Q: Can't I do this same thing using my counter-flow/plate chiller?

A: Yes, you can. Several people have reported good results using their counter-flow devices. Just run the output from the device back into the kettle. You'll probably get less of a whirlpool effect, but the chilling should be just as good, no DMS and great hop character.

Click to expand...

I did read that. It sounds like the author of the linked article has not tried the technique with a plate chiller himself? I wonder if anybody here can report on the results they have using this technique? It seems like it would take much longer to chill to lower than 140 F. I have not tried it myself, so I can't speak from experience either. It is possible to calculate the time it would take for the wort from the chiller and the wort in the BK to reach equilibrium or 140 F, but that is pretty heady math and there are alot of variables. My guess is that it will take alot longer than a "minute or two", even if all of the variables were in your favor. Especially starting with 20 gallons of boiling wort.

I am still not sure if understand what Holter's goal is? (Your system looks bad-ass btw, Holter). I suggest:

Start your whirlpool with a few minutes left in your boil - maybe 5-10 mins. Do not whirlpool through the chiller. Flameout, add flameout hops if any. let your whirlpool slow to a stop for another 10 minutes. You should have a nice little cone (or pile) of solids in the middle of the bottom of your BK. Then drain your BK through the chiller into the fermenter.

This will basically add a few minutes to the time your flameout hops sit in near boiling wort which in theory will add bitterness at the expense of aroma / flavor. How much? Hard to say exactly (without more math that is above my pay-grade) but you can compensate for this with adjustments in your hop schedule, use of a hopback etc. Just have to brew more and experiment a little. I hope this discussion is helpful.

surfingpl said:

I did read that. It sounds like the author of the linked article has not tried the technique with a plate chiller himself? I wonder if anybody here can report on the results they have using this technique? It seems like it would take much longer to chill to lower than 140 F. I have not tried it myself, so I can't speak from experience either. It is possible to calculate the time it would take for the wort from the chiller and the wort in the BK to reach equilibrium or 140 F, but that is pretty heady math and there are alot of variables. My guess is that it will take alot longer than a "minute or two", even if all of the variables were in your favor. Especially starting with 20 gallons of boiling wort.

I am still not sure if understand what Holter's goal is? (Your system looks bad-ass btw, Holter). I suggest:

Start your whirlpool with a few minutes left in your boil - maybe 5-10 mins. Do not whirlpool through the chiller. Flameout, add flameout hops if any. let your whirlpool slow to a stop for another 10 minutes. You should have a nice little cone (or pile) of solids in the middle of the bottom of your BK. Then drain your BK through the chiller into the fermenter.

This will basically add a few minutes to the time your flameout hops sit in near boiling wort which in theory will add bitterness at the expense of aroma / flavor. How much? Hard to say exactly (without more math that is above my pay-grade) but you can compensate for this with adjustments in your hop schedule, use of a hopback etc. Just have to brew more and experiment a little. I hope this discussion is helpful.

Click to expand...

It is helpful, thanks for keeping the conversation going. What you suggest here is exactly what I did for my last batch after some troubleshooting. I started up the whirlpool through the chiller at the 10 minute mark left in the boil. I couldn't tell if anything was happening because the boil was already moving so much, but I figured it was doing something. Then I turned off the heat at 0 and waited to see the whirlpool action pickup, which I didn't. After looking around a bit I ended up disconnecting the plate chiller and then my whirlpool was screaming fast.

What I am trying to avoid is having hot wort sit for the 10 minutes while I wait for it to settle. Not to mention the additional time it takes to pass all 20 gallons through the chiller. That last gallon has been sitting hot for about 20 minutes, which I want to get away from.

My ground water is about 62 right now, so when I run the wort through the chiller it runs pretty fast and comes out at 68. I don't see how this would take a long time to chill down a full 20 gallons.

Have you ever used half of your HLT at 165+ for the mash in, then filled it back up with water for the sparge? The temp drops at least 30 degrees for me, and that is a conservative estimate with water coming into the kettle at a slow trickle through the filter. This will be a high rate at probably 72 degrees. If I can push 4gal/min through the chiller I would have exchanged all 20 gallons through the chiller in 5 minutes. Then I can turn off the whirlpool, cover the kettle and wait for 10 minutes. After 10 minutes I can open the kettle output directly into the carbon and call it a day.

That's the plan at least. The point of all of this is to not have the full volume of wort sitting around hot. If it is going to sit idle after the whirlpool I want it to be at pitching temps. I hope that makes sense.

mcl said:

This site give some of the reasoning behind it.
http://www.mrmalty.com/chiller.php

Click to expand...

WOW! I wish I had seen this earlier! I've been mucking around with my whirlpool technique for several brews at this point. I got a fancy plate chiller without doing all the research necessary to use it properly and this page answered all my questions. From now on this is what I'll do:

1. Sanitize the chiller before hooking up to the system.
2. After flame-out run the wort through the chiller as fast as possible and monitor the outflow temp.
3. When the temp has reached the propper pict temp shut off the pump.
4. Cover the kettle and whirlpool for 15 min.
5. Pump to the fermentor without pumping through the chiller.
6. Have a homebrew!

Just a quick update to this issue for any of you that are interested. Because of the issues I have had with my therminator restricting flow I changed things up tonight and used my Herms coil instead. I filled up the HLT with about 18 gallons of cold water, around 52F and filled my 26 gallon kettle up the rest of the way with ice I bought at the grocery store.

I recirculated the wort through the Herms coil and was able to get the temperature of the full volume down to about 135 in 10 minutes. I was hoping it would be quicker, but then after about 25 minutes I hit 65F and was able to drain the wort from the kettle into the fermenter.

As far as first runs go I was thrilled with this result. I was able to finally whirlpool through a chilling device and get the full volume of liquid down to temp at the same speed. Another added bonus was that this mehod wastes far less water. The water left over after the chilling process in the HLT is then used to clean out the brew system.

But of course, this was a first run and there are some obvious issues that I think I can solve next time. The first issue is that I had to buy a lot of ice. Next time I am going to freeze water bottles and fill up the HLT with those bottles. The ice should last longer that way, so hopefully that should keep the water at a good low temp for longer. Second, I want to make the process go quicker. Today I left the pump on full blast. Next time I will slow down the flow through the coil so that the wort has more contact time in the coil. I think those two fixes will make this a process that I can repeat moving forward and achieve the results that I want.

Holter said:

Just a quick update to this issue for any of you that are interested. Because of the issues I have had with my therminator restricting flow I changed things up tonight and used my Herms coil instead. I filled up the HLT with about 18 gallons of cold water, around 52F and filled my 26 gallon kettle up the rest of the way with ice I bought at the grocery store.

Click to expand...

Just out of curiosity... Are you using 3/8" fittings on the therminator? I was, and they were very restrictive. The I.D. of the fittings was way WAY small. I switched to 1/2" fittings and things are flowing fast now!

MC

Misplaced_Canuck said:

Just out of curiosity... Are you using 3/8" fittings on the therminator? I was, and they were very restrictive. The I.D. of the fittings was way WAY small. I switched to 1/2" fittings and things are flowing fast now!

MC

Click to expand...

All of my fittings are 1/2" cam locks. Ive come to terms with selling my therminator. I like the idea of using less water to achieve the same results, so I am actually happy to part ways with it.

Holter said:

All of my fittings are 1/2" cam locks. Ive come to terms with selling my therminator. I like the idea of using less water to achieve the same results, so I am actually happy to part ways with it.

Click to expand...

To be honest, I've not been impressed with mine either. I think my 3/8" counterflow was faster.

MC

I've been through the ice part. What you want is maximum surface area, one large block of ice is far less SA than a bag of ice. I've tried to break up a frozen bottle and it's a royal Pita. Is suggest finding the cheapest source if cubed ice. If you can't find that cheaply some folks have even invested in a restaurant ice maker to make cubes ice on demand.

The next thing you'll run into is recirculating the iced water to evenly distribute the hear exchange.

And even further you want to utilize non chilled water first by using ground water until your chilling .slows and then switching to your ice water.