Troubleshooting all grain brew session

Ok, my first all grain session was last Sunday. I think everything went pretty well all things considered.

I made northern brewers dunkelweizen, my gravity was slightly off their predicted.

They estimated 1.051 and I hit 1.047, I'm not worried but wondering where in my process I lost those points.

I mashed at the 154 they recommended, for one hour. Since I didn't have a HLT I opted to batch sparge. After one hour I drained my first runnings and poured in .5 gal/per pound of grain and let it sit for another 30 min. After draining that off I had roughly 6.5 gallons.

Boiled normally, ended up with a hair under 5 gallons.

Any suggestions?

Cheers

This is really nice... Cool!

Thats about a normal discrepancy in predicted OG and actual. As you dial in your system you should get to know what your expected brewing efficiency. What is stated in your kit is based on an average. If you would like to get a better efficiency here is a good place to start. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=increasing+brewing+efficiency

Also was the sample you tested at the temperature your hydrometer is calibrated to? That can lead to a perception of lost efficiency.

Yeah, the sample I tested was accurate.

What do you think of my process? The instructions for the kit don't really have instructions for batch sparging.

Thanks for the reply

Your process looks fine. Nothing wrong with batch sparging. You seem to have a similar system to mine, and I batch sparge on every brew. Some things that effect efficiency you may have had no control over. such as the crush of the grain. Was it crushed by NB or did you use your own mill? A finer crush could give you a better conversion but can clog a braid / manifold. also how hot was your water for the sparge?

Sounds like your are on track. Getting within a couple points is actually really good for a brand new system.

Also, as long as the finished beer tastes good, there really isn't anything wrong if your system ALWAYS undershoots the "standard" calculator. Every setup is going to have slight variations in efficiency compared to their standard. Just plug in your real world efficiency when you make your own recipe. Mega-brewers need to maximize their efficiency to make money. Most homebrewers can just toss in an extra half pound of grain and don't really worry about a $0.75 price difference in a batch.

I had NB crush the grain, I received it on Wednesday and brewed the following Sunday. My sparge water ended up being the same temp as the mash. Nb said to mashout at 170*, I didn't think this was right for batch sparging so I just heated to original mash temps and let it rest for another thirty.

billl said:

Sounds like your are on track. Getting within a couple points is actually really good for a brand new system.

Also, as long as the finished beer tastes good, there really isn't anything wrong if your system ALWAYS undershoots the "standard" calculator. Every setup is going to have slight variations in efficiency compared to their standard. Just plug in your real world efficiency when you make your own recipe. Mega-brewers need to maximize their efficiency to make money. Most homebrewers can just toss in an extra half pound of grain and don't really worry about a $0.75 price difference in a batch.

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Yep, if it happens again I will just pick up another pound or so of base grain and call it good. I have the tendency to over think things sometimes and wanted to try and make all grain as simple as possible the first go around.

If you look around you will find tips on higher efficiency. When I started I think I was in low sixty %. Last couple times I am in low eighties. Just keep brewing.

Mike

NB directions for sparging at 170 were correct. For one it performs the function of a mash out, and two sugars are more soluble in water that is at a higher temperature. That could possibly be responsible for some of your loss in efficiency.

When batch sparing you want to hit the grains with hot enough water to get the grain bed up to roughly 168 degrees. In my system I use about 190 degree sparge water. Not super critical to hit 168 but it stops the conversion process and helps get the rest of the sugars out of the grain. Anyway, I would suggest next time you add hotter sparge water and stir like crazy. No need to wait 30 minutes as conversion should already be done. After you stir you can vorlouf and start running off again. For slightly better efficiency split your sparge water in two and do a double batch sparge. Good luck.

I believe Denny has thoroughly exhausted multiple sparge additions and shown any increases in efficiency were negligible. He had best results with two equal runoffs, and thus he mashes very thin so there is just a runoff, then one sparge addition.

Your crush is probably the single biggest factor besides thoroughly stirring while you dough-in, and before each vorlauf.

You also dont need to or necessarily want to have a long wait during a batch sparge. You could end up extracting tannins or end up with an astringent flavor if you sparge too long or hot. I think thats right... Eh. Just dont over sparge.

Some folks split up the sparge into two batches. If you have time to do so, try that. May help with efficiency.

Imho... worrying over your efficiency too much is overrated, especially if the beer tastes good. Just keep brewing.


Sounds to me like you had a good brew day!

schmeldorf said:

You also dont need to or necessarily want to have a long wait during a batch sparge. You could end up extracting tannins or end up with an astringent flavor if you sparge too long or hot. I think thats right... Eh. Just dont over sparge.

Some folks split up the sparge into two batches. If you have time to do so, try that. May help with efficiency.

Imho... worrying over your efficiency too much is overrated, especially if the beer tastes good. Just keep brewing.


Sounds to me like you had a good brew day!

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Agreed, I'm not going to worry about it.

chumpsteak said:

When batch sparing you want to hit the grains with hot enough water to get the grain bed up to roughly 168 degrees. In my system I use about 190 degree sparge water. Not super critical to hit 168 but it stops the conversion process and helps get the rest of the sugars out of the grain. Anyway, I would suggest next time you add hotter sparge water and stir like crazy. No need to wait 30 minutes as conversion should already be done. After you stir you can vorlouf and start running off again. For slightly better efficiency split your sparge water in two and do a double batch sparge. Good luck.

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Thanks! I will try this next time.

4 points is nothing to worry about. I would use hotter water for sparging, though. But be careful, whereas chumpsteak needs 190deg water to get his grain bed to 168, I only need 180ish on my system. You don't want to get it too hot as that will extract tannins from the grains.

Controlling your mash pH is also important to avoid leaching tannins. If your pH is under control then you don't have to worry as much about getting the grain bed a little too hot.

Back when I started brewing AG efficiency was one of those things I read about. I decided in the end that as long as I was in some reasonable ballpark of my expected OG, I wasn't going to worry about it. It introduces a number of additional variables that need to be controlled, and.....I'm just not that interested. I've been doing nothing but AG for 3.5 years, and I couldn't tell you the efficiency of any of my batches. All I know is that my process is pretty boring insofar as I can hit my OG within a point or two, no matter if I'm brewing a nice light Belgian blonde or a barleywine. And the beer comes out great!

One of the really fun things about this hobby are the number of directions the homebrewer can branch out in, if such things capture one's interest: elaborate brew sculptures, fancy labels, a dedicated brew area, etc. and so forth. I guess I do none of those things, except to assiduously pursue K.I.S.S. methods. If efficiency captures the imagination, by all means, go for it!

I agree with what others have said from not worrying about it, to using more grain, and stirring more. You can also add hot mash out water before you drain your first runnings. Add just enough boiling water to bring the mash temperature up to 168, stir and let it sit for ten minutes, then drain it very slowly. Raising the temperature makes the mash less viscous and helps pull more sugars from the grain. I drain for more than 30 minutes and maybe even closer to an hour before batch sparging. I've never timed it, so I'm just estimating here.

After one hour I drained my first runnings and poured in .5 gal/per pound of grain and let it sit for another 30 min. After draining that off I had roughly 6.5 gallons.

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How did you decide on basing your sparge volume on the ratio of .5 gallon/pound of grain? Sparge volume is typically calculated based on how much more water you need to achieve your pre-boil volume. So if you got 2.5 gallons out of your first runnings, you need 4 gallons more to make your 6.5. I divide that into 2 separate sparges of 2 gallons each.

MichaelBrock said:

How did you decide on basing your sparge volume on the ratio of .5 gallon/pound of grain? Sparge volume is typically calculated based on how much more water you need to achieve your pre-boil volume. So if you got 2.5 gallons out of your first runnings, you need 4 gallons more to make your 6.5. I divide that into 2 separate sparges of 2 gallons each.

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I did 1.25 quarts per pound of grain to mash with (roughly 3.5 gal). Drained off first runnings which was about a gallon.

I read on here in one of the stickies that you sparge with a half gallon per pound which was roughly 6 gallons.

There are some complicated formulas out there to determine water to grain ratios but they didn't make sense to me.

chumpsteak said:

Controlling your mash pH is also important to avoid leaching tannins. If your pH is under control then you don't have to worry as much about getting the grain bed a little too hot.

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This. If you mash-out (add water to mash to get to 168) you will have a PH that is not conducive to tannin production. The last sparge addition(s) are where your PH is lower. There's no need to hit the grain with that hot of water at that point. You've already mashed out.