Need help, 6 (7) bad batches in a row (Long)

How odd was your guys weather this year? We had, you probably heard, extreme drought in North Carolina all summer. Talking to a couple friends last weekend on well water, they both commented their water doesn't 'taste' liek it used too.

Driving out west mid-October I remember a lady I think in Oklahoma commenting on how much rain they had had.

So I was wondering if you guys were both on wells in the SA area, but it looks like roahnski is on well water but JnJ is on muni water. And rohanski tried boiling his water and one of you tried bottled water.

I'll keep my eye open for a bug that can survive yeast onslaught and then bloom when the yeast slow down in an alcohol environment. But it would have to survive muni chlorine too, this is real fishy.

Are either of you up for trying campden tablets in your brew water 24 hours before your next brew day?

Poindexter said:

How odd was your guys weather this year? We had, you probably heard, extreme drought in North Carolina all summer. Talking to a couple friends last weekend on well water, they both commented their water doesn't 'taste' liek it used too.

Driving out west mid-October I remember a lady I think in Oklahoma commenting on how much rain they had had.

So I was wondering if you guys were both on wells in the SA area, but it looks like roahnski is on well water but JnJ is on muni water. And rohanski tried boiling his water and one of you tried bottled water.

I'll keep my eye open for a bug that can survive yeast onslaught and then bloom when the yeast slow down in an alcohol environment. But it would have to survive muni chlorine too, this is real fishy.

Are either of you up for trying campden tablets in your brew water 24 hours before your next brew day?

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Ya the weather here has been very wet this year. But I don't think it could have affected the brew unless it's something airborne.
On the current batch, the krousen (SP?) has already fallen and bubbling has slowed to a steady pace. Fingers crossed.

JnJ said:

Ya the weather here has been very wet this year. But I don't think it could have affected the brew unless it's something airborne.
On the current batch, the krousen (SP?) has already fallen and bubbling has slowed to a steady pace. Fingers crossed.

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Can you get a sample with out contaminating the rest? My current best hypothesis is a "new" to your area bug the muni plant isn't getting. A spore former that gets activated in the wort boil and then can survive in an alcohol environment. Don't have a name on the tip of my tongue.

If your beer smells, looks, _and_ tastes right today...

Poindexter said:

Can you get a sample with out contaminating the rest? My current best hypothesis is a "new" to your area bug the muni plant isn't getting. A spore former that gets activated in the wort boil and then can survive in an alcohol environment. Don't have a name on the tip of my tongue.

If your beer smells, looks, _and_ tastes right today...

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What in the world can survive 60 minutes at 212f?? I have never heard of anything like that?

kenb said:

What in the world can survive 60 minutes at 212f?? I have never heard of anything like that?

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My X SWMBO!

kenb said:

What in the world can survive 60 minutes at 212f?? I have never heard of anything like that?

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Not much, but bacterial spores can probably survive bare naked drifting planet to planet via outerspace after say getting launched by a big meteor impact. Some prions maybe, research has come a looong way on those in the last five years.

I was thinking these guys might also make up some wort and not pitch any yeast on it to help ID whatever bug it is growing in it.

rohanski said:

My X SWMBO!

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Does that mean she's really hot, or she's able to create an ice bubble around herself at will?

Either way, we'll need a pic. Hot chicks are always in vogue and the evil ones are good at hallowe'en. Evil and hot are best. Nodameen?

As poindexter said in the previous post she came from outer space. Now she is infecting my beer.

We are getting to play Quincy here, so please don't edit your posts. If you think of something tag it on the end.

I am real close to calling up a SA HBS just to ask if anybody else has been having trouble with infections. My HS physics teacher would call it a schtoomper.

Poindexter said:

Can you get a sample with out contaminating the rest? My current best hypothesis is a "new" to your area bug the muni plant isn't getting. A spore former that gets activated in the wort boil and then can survive in an alcohol environment. Don't have a name on the tip of my tongue.

If your beer smells, looks, _and_ tastes right today...

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Dude I'm afraid to F with it. I haven't had a good batch since about Feb/March..

I'm in San Antonio too and I haven't got any infections. I use a combination of bottled drinking water that comes from SA and just plain tap water. I'm also a noob so if infections were likely due to the water, I'm sure I'd be the one to get it.

Just my thoughts from another local.

neomich said:

I'm in San Antonio too and I haven't got any infections. I use a combination of bottled drinking water that comes from SA and just plain tap water. I'm also a noob so if infections were likely due to the water, I'm sure I'd be the one to get it.

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When your starting out I would be you have less chance of infection because malt is new to your house. Give a while and you have a better chance. If you have ever had a vegetable garden with tomatoes you can understand why. The first year maybe the second will be OK but eventually you will get tomato worms and nematodes. Where do they come from?

rohanski said:

When your starting out I would be you have less chance of infection because malt is new to your house. Give a while and you have a better chance. If you have ever had a vegetable garden with tomatoes you can understand why. The first year maybe the second will be OK but eventually you will get tomato worms and nematodes. Where do they come from?

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This is disturbing news. It sounds like a reasonable explanation, at least to me. Are there certain strains of bacteria that specifically target malt?

Poindexter said:

Can you get a sample with out contaminating the rest? My current best hypothesis is a "new" to your area bug the muni plant isn't getting. A spore former that gets activated in the wort boil and then can survive in an alcohol environment. Don't have a name on the tip of my tongue.

If your beer smells, looks, _and_ tastes right today...

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If it were a case of some "super" bug going around San Antonio, don't you think that there would be other adverse effects of such a bug. Like people getting sick with strange undocumented symptoms. Or pets, livestock, wildlife or plantlife also showing some signs of this bacteria. Or, other foods spoiling?

Realistically, in all likelihood, this is a problem isolated to the one, possibly two, brewers that are experiencing the problem. And, the problem is either due to an infection (Brettanomyces, Lactobacillus or Pediococcus) or a procedural step that is either being done improperly or omitted altogether.

First, replace all plastic/vinyl hoses and racking canes with new thoroughly sterilized hoses and canes. Carefully clean and sanitize all spigots. If you use an aeration systems. Replace the parts you can, and soak everything in sanitizer. Immersion chiller (though you shouldn't have to) give it a good scrub with dish soap and soak in sanitizer prior to chilling wort. If you're using a kit, purchase it from a different location and brew a fairly easy recipe such as an IPA or APA and DON'T use liquid yeast ... pitch two (one should do it but be safe) packets of Safale-05.

I would suggest eliminating all variables regarding sanitation (brew outside, use spring water, etc.) that you can think of. Elminating one variable at a time will help you to figure out exactly what went/is going wrong, but what good does it do you to know that some spigot wasn't being sanitized and in the course you lost 3 more batches. Elminate everything and establish new procedures. If you eliminate all the variables regarding sanitation then you'll know its something procedural.

JnJ said:

Dude I'm afraid to F with it. I haven't had a good batch since about Feb/March..

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OK, when did the rain start in heavy for you guys?

I am looking at genus Clostridium pretty hard right now. 100+ species, wide distribution in soil and GI tracts. Spores commonly airborne. Spores commonly survive @212°F indefinitely at one atmosphere pressure. As obligate anaerobes, spores tend to germinate in oxygen free environment. So they would start really multiplying after your primary ferment is complete.

Do you ever smell rotting stuff at your house when the wind is just right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clostridium_botulinum

Here is a reference from 1999 that isn't wikipedia:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/m86545026g0n80l3/

and in case you need a log in:

springerlink said:

Sudha Rani1 and G. Seenayya1

(1) Department of Microbiology, Osmania University, Hyderabad-7, India


Abstract Clostridium thermocellum strains SS21 and SS22, producing high yields of ethanol, were tolerant to 4.0 and 5.0% (v/v) ethanol, respectively. This is the highest ethanol tolerance so far reported by wild type strains of C. thermocellum. In the presence of added ethanol, both the strains had extended period of growth arrest. On addition of ethanol at different culture ages increase in ethanol tolerance upto 7.0 and 8.0% (v/v) by strains SS21 and SS22, respectively was observed. The optimum growth temperature for strain SS21 decreased as the concentration of ethanol in the medium increased and remained constant for strain SS22. Both the strains were tolerant to various solvents and acetic acid indicating that high ethanol tolerance of the strains is due to the general solvent tolerance of the organisms.

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Wow! Wouldn't this be a deadly poison? If not what would it taste like?

SRM775,
I have done everything you talked about including baking the carboy and boiling all of the water. As I have said my exposure time from boiling to carboy is no more than 10 minutes. I could teach classes on how to transfer it fast. The last batch in the carboy is still going so I don't know if it is good.

rohanski said:

SRM775,
I have done everything you talked about including baking the carboy and boiling all of the water. As I have said my exposure time from boiling to carboy is no more than 10 minutes. I could teach classes on how to transfer it fast. The last batch in the carboy is still going so I don't know if it is good.

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I was primarily talking to JnJ since he started the thread, but you also seem to be experiencing the same problems. Are you using liquid or dry yeast?

Also, you really have to isolate the off taste. Without more of a specific description, it's hard to tell what the problem is. Whether it's bad water, bad yeast, bad ingredients, bad sanitation or bad procedures, there are a dozen steps along the way that could be introducing off flavors. Also, what styles have you been brewing. Perhaps switching to a more forgiving style would be best until you figure it out.

srm775 said:

Realistically, in all likelihood, this is a problem isolated to the one, possibly two, brewers that are experiencing the problem. And, the problem is either due to an infection (Brettanomyces, Lactobacillus or Pediococcus) or a procedural step that is either being done improperly or omitted altogether.

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Agreed.

srm775 said:

First, replace all plastic/vinyl hoses and racking canes with new thoroughly sterilized hoses and canes. Carefully clean and sanitize all spigots. If you use an aeration systems. Replace the parts you can, and soak everything in sanitizer. Immersion chiller (though you shouldn't have to) give it a good scrub with dish soap and soak in sanitizer prior to chilling wort. If you're using a kit, purchase it from a different location and brew a fairly easy recipe such as an IPA or APA and DON'T use liquid yeast ... pitch two (one should do it but be safe) packets of Safale-05.

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I have never racked, so no racking cane, the last 3 batches were bad out of the primary meaning they have never touched a hose, cane, or anything else other than the primary. The primary for every bad batch was one of two buckets, expect for the last bad batch that was primaried in a Better Bottle. No aeration system, shake the fermentor. last few batches used bleach and sanitizer and current batch in glass carboy got baked (the carboy, not the batch). I've used kits from AHS, More Beer, and my own recipes from AHS. My bad batches include APAs, Klosh, Hefe, Irish Red, and a Bitter, all with the same taste. I have used liquid yeast and dry, mostly dry.

srm775 said:

I would suggest eliminating all variables regarding sanitation (brew outside, use spring water, etc.) that you can think of. Elminating one variable at a time will help you to figure out exactly what went/is going wrong, but what good does it do you to know that some spigot wasn't being sanitized and in the course you lost 3 more batches. Elminate everything and establish new procedures. If you eliminate all the variables regarding sanitation then you'll know its something procedural.

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I have come down to either my tap water (which was used in all the good batches prior to this problem), or the plastic fermentors. So my current batch is in a glass carboy which I have never used before. If it turns out bad, then it is the water or a bio agent sent in by the Russians to ruin my beer!!

This thread is starting to sound like "28 Days Later".

Diagnosing this stuff over the internet is nearly impossible and invites all kinds of speculation and second-guessing.

I really, really think you guys (rohanski and JnJ) should reach out to some long-time homebrewers in your area and have a face-to-face brew day.

Have someone work with you on all your proceedures (not just sanitation). I bet it will help. Contact a club or LHBS owner to find someone willing to help out.

I really wish you two the best of luck. I hope you can figure this out and get back to homebrewing as its meant to be - fun.

brloomis said:

This thread is starting to sound like "28 Days Later".

Diagnosing this stuff over the internet is nearly impossible and invites all kinds of speculation and second-guessing.

I really, really think you guys (rohanski and JnJ) should reach out to some long-time homebrewers in your area and have a face-to-face brew day.

Have someone work with you on all your proceedures (not just sanitation). I bet it will help. Contact a club or LHBS owner to find someone willing to help out.

I really wish you two the best of luck. I hope you can figure this out and get back to homebrewing as its meant to be - fun.

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Thanks. I have not posted it here, but I am in contact with a local club and they are trying to help as well.

JnJ said:

I have come down to either my tap water (which was used in all the good batches prior to this problem), or the plastic fermentors. So my current batch is in a glass carboy which I have never used before. If it turns out bad, then it is the water or a bio agent sent in by the Russians to ruin my beer!!

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One other thing, if you don't use raking canes ... how did you get the beer out of the pot? Spigot? Make sure you flush boiling water through that spigot before you begin to brew. I usually heat up a little extra sparge water in my boiling pot then just flush it through the spigot.

I think the chances of your beer being infected with outer space Botulism, E. Coli, Antibiotic-resistant Staph, Hanta virus, Ebola or whatever else everyone is saying is EXTREMELY unlikely and you either have a normal, run-of-the-mill infection or, what I suspect is the problem, you're doing something improperly, extra or not at all.

I'm still leaning to something the air because I have varied every variable with the same result. I will make my next batch in the garage apartment room and see how that turns out.
I need a friggin homebrew!

srm775 said:

One other thing, if you don't use raking canes ... how did you get the beer out of the pot? Spigot? Make sure you flush boiling water through that spigot before you begin to brew. I usually heat up a little extra sparge water in my boiling pot then just flush it through the spigot.

I think the chances of your beer being infected with outer space Botulism, E. Coli, Antibiotic-resistant Staph, Hanta virus, Ebola or whatever else everyone is saying is EXTREMELY unlikely and you either have a normal, run-of-the-mill infection or, what I suspect is the problem, you're doing something improperly, extra or not at all.

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I always broke down the spigots and sanitized them like everything else. I agree it's probably a common brewing bug but I'm about positive it is not in the process considering I had so many good batches and the process is rather simple/hard to screw up.

Just subscribing to the thread...very interesting. Looking forward to hearing results (fingers crossed).

Well four days in and the fermentation is almost done. I'll leave it in the primary then go to secondary this weekend. I don't use secondary much but this is a little more than a blonde or APA. This is about the time in previous batch that the bad smell would start showing up. So far, so good.

I want to try mine but it's kinda like not wanting to go to the doctor because your afraid of what you might find out. It doesn't smell great. What about Eastside Brewer?

rohanski said:

I want to try mine but it's kinda like not wanting to go to the doctor because your afraid of what you might find out. It doesn't smell great. What about Eastside Brewer?

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Still smelling good here. but, I do know what you mean. I get nervous every time I open the freezer to take a wiff. I will transfer on sunday and will taste it then.

Okay, I took a quick skim thorough all 7 pages, and noticed that nobody touched on this...

I've been brewing for, oh, about a year and a half or so. My first batch was in a 5-gallon bucket that came with my first "homebrew kit." Afterwards, I noticed that the bucket stunk...like vinegar or something like that. I figured it was just the smell of fermentation. I scrubbed and scrubbed, but the smell never went away. The first batch turned out great, but when it came time to brew again, the bucket still stunk. So, I bought a glass carboy...and haven't looked back. I didn't want to take the chance of making another batch in the bucket, and it tasting like that smell. It still stinks to this day, so I use it strictly for storage of all my homebrew stuff.

I have a feeling your problem will go away now that you've switched to the glass carboy. I'm curious to hear how it goes.

Ok, it's the afternoon of day five and it is still smelling good. I think we might have a keeper! Sunday it goes to the secondary.

par383 said:

Okay, I took a quick skim thorough all 7 pages, and noticed that nobody touched on this...

I've been brewing for, oh, about a year and a half or so. My first batch was in a 5-gallon bucket that came with my first "homebrew kit." Afterwards, I noticed that the bucket stunk...like vinegar or something like that. I figured it was just the smell of fermentation. I scrubbed and scrubbed, but the smell never went away. The first batch turned out great, but when it came time to brew again, the bucket still stunk. So, I bought a glass carboy...and haven't looked back. I didn't want to take the chance of making another batch in the bucket, and it tasting like that smell. It still stinks to this day, so I use it strictly for storage of all my homebrew stuff.

I have a feeling your problem will go away now that you've switched to the glass carboy. I'm curious to hear how it goes.

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The buckets have been mentioned often in this thread. And, many people use buckets for years with no problems. I had some great batches in buckets. I think the problem comes if/when you do get an infection, it's very difficult to get it out of the plastic items, including buckets. I may use plastic in the future, but if I get an infection, I will throw away all the plastic THAT came in contact with that batch. Now, my last infected batch was in a Better Bottle. I plan to soak, clean, sanitize the piss out of them, I'd hate to throw them away $$$$$$!!!!!

Rohanski, everything going great here, I am 6 days in the primary and I'm in the middle of high krausen in fermenter. I won't even go near it for another 4 or 5 days, and then I will pull a sample to check gravity. I do not go into a secondary. I have a converted keg, when active fermentation is complete I will cold crash for 2 days, bring temp back up to 68* and then dry hop for 5 days, cold crash and then transfer only 1 time to serving tank, all in closed lines pushed with co2.

I had a friend come over and help me through my cleaning and sanitizing routine and I realized that I was cleaning but forgetting to sanitize. I hope that refocusing on the cleaning routine will be the answer, I will not know for sure for another 4 or 5 days??

Eastside......

p.s. - I see you are in boerne, I was born and raised in Frederickberg, we played you every year in football.

Breaking news! Just got up the strenght to taste my last batch.....so far so good.
The gravity has a little way to go but I think it's going to be good. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

rohanski said:

Breaking news! Just got up the strenght to taste my last batch.....so far so good.
The gravity has a little way to go but I think it's going to be good. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

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Good to hear. Hope it turns out well.

I am eagerly awaiting the results of these tests. I use plastic for my fermentation, and don't use secondary any more. I have had some stinky beers my last few batches, and I am wondering if my buckets and/or tubing need to be replaced. I even had the American Wheat with the Belgian banana flavor to it, like someone above did (too many posts to recall if it was JnJ or what). I thought maybe I got some of my Duvel clone yeast in the Wheat somehow (I might have bottled them both on the same day). If glass solves it, then I might just go get a few big carboys. My last batch wasn't terrible, but it was a stout, so it has a bit more off-flvaor masking power than lighter colored beers.

rohanski said:

Breaking news! Just got up the strenght to taste my last batch.....so far so good.
The gravity has a little way to go but I think it's going to be good. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

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Congrats! Glad to hear it. I just tapped a fresh keg of Haus Pale Ale for tomorrow. Weather looks great too.

It's gonna be a great brew day!

I hate to speak to early, but it looks like we might all have our bugs beat! If so we need to setup an SA get together and drink some beers. May be after the Holidays.
If I beat this infection, then I'm going AG after the new year. Asking for a March pump and $75. gift certificate at Northern Brewer (to get the pieces parts) for Christmas!

Well transfer day wasn't so great. Remember, this is my first time with glass carboys. First I wanted to get an FG. I put the hydrometer in my wine thief. Will the wine thief would not go far enough into the carboy to get enough beer in it to read the hydro. So I put the hydro in the normal container I use, and use the thief to get enough (two fills) to measure it. I was disappointed with my FG, it was 1.018 but should have been closer to 1.013. I have had great success with SafeAle 04 previously, but not so great this time. Then I tasted the sample. It seems I might detect a slight hint of the previous off flavor. This was a little discouraging, but in the past it was very noticeable, so may be this is just green beer (it's been a long time since I tasted a green beer that was not contaminated). So next was time to transfer. In the past it was easy because I had buckets with spigots and better bottles with the valves, no siphoning. Well I have an auto siphon that came with my kit and decided to put it to work. It seemed to work ok when used to move sanitizer from a carboy. Well, it was not so good. It took forever, and I left a lot of beer in the primary. I’ve heard others complain how slow the better bottles drain, while this was as slow if not slower.
So, over all I was disappointed with the beer and the transfer. I’ll leave it in the secondary for a week or two, test it again, and then keg it if it tastes ok.

JNJ don't worry about the higher gravity, it will be fine. I also thought I had a bad batch because it was kinda sour like yours. I took some to the Brew With a Friend day and Ed and a couple of other guys tasted it and the said it tasted fine. I hadn't tasted it in maybe 3 to 5 days but now it wasn't bad at all. The kolsh out of the primary tasted great.

Coming in late, but I noticed in your original post Jnj that you use water from the hose. Garden hoses are not safe to drink out of and definitely deposit crap in your water that is not only toxic, it probably tastes bad!

rohanski said:

JNJ don't worry about the higher gravity, it will be fine. I also thought I had a bad batch because it was kinda sour like yours. I took some to the Brew With a Friend day and Ed and a couple of other guys tasted it and the said it tasted fine. I hadn't tasted it in maybe 3 to 5 days but now it wasn't bad at all. The kolsh out of the primary tasted great.

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Heard it was a good time. Sorry I missed it but the daughter came down from school for the weekend and changed our plans. Like I said, I'll let it go a week or so in the secondary and try it out again.