Bretts are slow and strong, but how strong?

Premise:
Two weeks ago I brewed a strong Belgian blond (1.082) and it didn't go so hot (no pun intended). I was planning on mashing around 149-150F, and by also adding a pound of sugar, I was planning it to be on the dryer end. Anyway, I was using a new floating thermometer for the first time, since my previous one broke, and I was very disappointed when I realized it was totally bogus. There is no way that the temperature it was giving me was right (it was saying my mash was 100F when just feeling the temperature by hand indicated that it was blatantly wrong). Before I even thought about that, I was trying to correct with hot water, and when I realized what was happening I had to start correcting in the other direction with ice. This is a good lesson on checking new thermometers before brewday!

I was going to dump it since I really had no solution at this point, but figured, what the hell, what if I was lucky enough to fall at a somewhat decent temperature and get enough enzymatic activity that I'd get reasonable fermentability? What's a few dollars in hops and a few more hours work when I've already committed myself to this?

So it's been in the fermenter for two weeks and the fermentation is more or less finishing off around 1.062. I'm open to accepting process anomalies and all, but I wasn't going for a 2.5% barleywine here you guys!

Possible solution:
Throw some brettanomyces at it and see if the bretts can eat up the massive amount of "unfermentable" sugars. Supposedly bretts can eat up any sugars you throw at it, even after the primary yeast has fermented the simple sugars. I've only brewed one beer with bretts (and it was amazing), but it was used more conventionally. This seems a bit goofier.

Anyone familiar with brettanomyces behavior and how it would fair in such an environment? I'd rather dump it than anxiously watch the carboy for 6-12 months to no avail.

Thanks! And I'm open to any other radical weird ideas, too!

Brett will metabolize a small spectrum of higher sugars that standard brewers yeasts won't, but I would be very surprised if it did much to help you here. You could always try pitching some alpha amylase/beano directly to see if it breaks down further.

You could also pitch some sour dregs, Jolly Pumpkin's work really well and taste great, or one of the sour blends from WL or WY. The enzymes produced by pedio really let the brett attenuate. And a sour blond sounds really good.

Pitch some Turbo that will drop the gravity and dry the hell out of it......my.02

MalFet said:

Brett will metabolize a small spectrum of higher sugars that standard brewers yeasts won't, but I would be very surprised if it did much to help you here. You could always try pitching some alpha amylase/beano directly to see if it breaks down further.

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Yup. I'd say this is your best option right here.

Brett will ferment sugar fine, but what probably happened to you is you extracted the sugar from some caramel malt or other steeping grain, and all your base malt is still left as extracted starch. Bacteria will break it down over a long period, but brett by itself is unlikely to do much to it.

beaksnbeer said:

Pitch some Turbo that will drop the gravity and dry the hell out of it......my.02

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Not when there's no sugar to ferment.

Wow thanks guys, this thread turned into a great excuse for me to drink that Jolly Pumpkin Baudelaire IO I've got lying around.

I'll toss in a dreg of that, some brett lambicus, and in a few days some alpha amylase. Anyone have any insights that could serve as a source of objection?

navethechimp said:

Wow thanks guys, this thread turned into a great excuse for me to drink that Jolly Pumpkin Baudelaire IO I've got lying around.

I'll toss in a dreg of that, some brett lambicus, and in a few days some alpha amylase. Anyone have any insights that could serve as a source of objection?

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I'd toss the amylase in first. Right now, there's likely not much for the brett to metabolize, and likewise it will probably just floc out as soon as you pitch it.

id add the amylase now, otherwise you'll be waiting a very long time for brett to cut thru that.

dwarven_stout said:

Brett will ferment sugar fine, but what probably happened to you is you extracted the sugar from some caramel malt or other steeping grain, and all your base malt is still left as extracted starch. .

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starch doesn't effect a gravity reading, its insoluble.

dcp27 said:

starch doesn't effect a gravity reading, its insoluble.

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Wrong on both counts.

dwarven_stout said:

Wrong on both counts.

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umm nope. " Starch is a polysaccarid (very large chains of glucose) which is insoluble in water "

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/The_Theory_of_Mashing

so you're saying that you'd have the same OG whether you had conversion or not?

There's starch, and then there's starch. Anything more than a di-saccharide is usually considered a partially hydrolyzed starch (also known as a dextrin). Maltodextrin is a good example- it has between 3 and 15-20 glucose groups.

The reason that you can use an iodine test to see if your mash has converted is because these lower starches are soluble. Whether or not you had the same OG with a starchy wort compared to a sugary wort depends on your extraction efficiency, which is an entirely different question that asking whether or not what you got is actually fermentable.

MalFet said:

I'd toss the amylase in first. Right now, there's likely not much for the brett to metabolize, and likewise it will probably just floc out as soon as you pitch it.

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+1 Add a couple tablespoons and watch it kick back off!

dwarven_stout said:

There's starch, and then there's starch. Anything more than a di-saccharide is usually considered a partially hydrolyzed starch (also known as a dextrin). Maltodextrin is a good example- it has between 3 and 15-20 glucose groups.

The reason that you can use an iodine test to see if your mash has converted is because these lower starches are soluble. Whether or not you had the same OG with a starchy wort compared to a sugary wort depends on your extraction efficiency, which is an entirely different question that asking whether or not what you got is actually fermentable.

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oh well you can understand my confusion, i thought u meant starch not starch

dcp27 said:

umm nope. " Starch is a polysaccarid (very large chains of glucose) which is insoluble in water "

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/The_Theory_of_Mashing

so you're saying that you'd have the same OG whether you had conversion or not?

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(adding to what dwarven_stout said...)

Potentially, yes. Unfortunately, the HBT wiki is wrong on this. A great deal of the apparent "insolubility" of starch is just limitations on gelatinization. When starch is in an organized structure, water can't get access to the inside of the granule and the starch doesn't easily dissolve. With time, heat, and agitation, that all changes. Amylose and amylopectin are, when properly gelatinized, soluble.

With very wrong temperatures, you could definitely get a mash product with very high gravity without significant enzymatic action by amylase. In other words, you could have the same OG without conversion. It's hard to say for sure of course, but my guess would be that this is exactly what has happened here: the bulk of his gravity comes from unconverted starch.

beaksnbeer said:

Pitch some Turbo that will drop the gravity and dry the hell out of it......my.02

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And make it taste like ass, too. Better to pitch a large, well-aerated starter of an alcohol tolerant ale yeast

Four months later...

I took a sample of this after letting it sit without being touched for four months. It's been tartin' up with the dreg of Jolly Pumpkin's Baudelaire IO Saison (amazing beer by the way). Thank you pohldogg for that suggestion and the others for your insights. It's still little young, but it's not tasting too bad at all. Definitely funky (almost chemically awkward, like shoe shine), with a moderate sharp tartness, not quite to the level it should be, but I think in a few months it'll be quite nice (especially with that whole carbonation thing).

But for the thread's sake, it's down to 1.002!!!