Diagnosis: In need of help

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I'll go out on a limb and say you are introducing an unwanted "house yeast" somewhere in the process, most likely when you are making your starter. One thing to try would be get a couple of fresh vials and just dump them in to your fermenter and add the wort and see if you notice a difference. Seems like you got everything else pretty much squared away. Good Luck

I'd be surprised here as my cleaning and sanitizing regime is pretty good. One change i did make last brew was switching from fridge filtered water to distilled on this last batch.

Haven't seen anyone suggest that your beers might be over-carbonated. What temperature and PSI are you keeping the kegs at in the keezer?

Some beers have been more carbed than others but the ones I have in there right now arent. How much of an impact could that have on creating an off flavor as opposed to just affecting the mouthfeel?
 
Some beers have been more carbed than others but the ones I have in there right now arent. How much of an impact could that have on creating an off flavor as opposed to just affecting the mouthfeel?

It can certainly affect the flavor, I had a couple over-carbonated batches that had some strange flavors that to me at the time seemed plasticy. It can also increase the bitterness of the beer due to carbonic acid.
 
It can also increase the bitterness of the beer due to carbonic acid.

This. If I don't wait until my carbonation is balanced, all my beers have a nasty lingering bitterness immediately after carbing, but it always goes away within a week. It also depends on the hop schedule of the beer. It was hugely prominent in an ESB but unnoticeable in an IPA for example
 
Wow, that's a very interesting read. I'd be surprised if that were the case since I just got a new system in October and I take the valves off after every brew and soak in a PBW solution, but maybe it's worth at least checking out for peace of mind.

(I know a question will now come about the new system in October having an impact but I've had this off flavor on batches before that system too - which now that i think of it, may in and of itself rule out this potential diacetyl idea). But regardless, I'll look into it. Thanks for the info!

But soaking them isn't good enough. You can't clean and sanitize dirt. You gotta take those things apart and see if there is some gunk built up somewhere. When you are soaking it, you are only hitting the surface of the build-up. The nasties will live all throughout that and they will have a fertile breeding ground in-between brew sessions. As someone mentioned, you may be introducing a house yeast and a scenario such as this could be exactly how. You mentioned that you have had this problem on two rigs now. Can you recall when was the last time you had a successful batch? If I was you, I would not focus on parts of your process that have not changed. For example, if your carbonation process worked when you were brewing good beer, and you have not changed it, why would that suddenly be an issue? Since your process was nailed down previously, and you were making good beer, a more likely scenario is that another variable has introduced itself; hence the house strain theory.
 
But soaking them isn't good enough. You can't clean and sanitize dirt. You gotta take those things apart and see if there is some gunk built up somewhere. When you are soaking it, you are only hitting the surface of the build-up. The nasties will live all throughout that and they will have a fertile breeding ground in-between brew sessions. As someone mentioned, you may be introducing a house yeast and a scenario such as this could be exactly how. You mentioned that you have had this problem on two rigs now. Can you recall when was the last time you had a successful batch? If I was you, I would not focus on parts of your process that have not changed. For example, if your carbonation process worked when you were brewing good beer, and you have not changed it, why would that suddenly be an issue? Since your process was nailed down previously, and you were making good beer, a more likely scenario is that another variable has introduced itself; hence the house strain theory.

You're right. I guess I'd be surprised since it's a brand new system, good quality, etc. But faulty valves do happen. I take all the valves apart and soak and who knows what order i put them back on so I may not always have the same valve on the boil kettle too. But it's worth looking into.

I honestly have a good feeling about the water being the issue. If i remember correctly, last summer i started using more hose water more often for cleaning and sanitizing. This flavor was less prevalent (but still there) and i had made good beers before that when i was using water either out of the sink or through the fridge filter in the kitchen for sanitizing. It's gotten worse and I think this is whats going on. I'm going to focus on sanitizing strictly with a distilled (or other store bought) water mix to see if this makes a difference. If not, I'll have to start exploring some of these other options and try to isolate, starting with those valves.
 
I've made three changes in the past few months that have made noticeable differences.
1. All ball valves from brew kettle on (so bk and fermenter) are broken down completely, cleaned and sanitized every use
2. Use chlorine filter
3. Minimize all possible sources of O2 post fermentation.
 
I've made three changes in the past few months that have made noticeable differences.
1. All ball valves from brew kettle on (so bk and fermenter) are broken down completely, cleaned and sanitized every use
2. Use chlorine filter
3. Minimize all possible sources of O2 post fermentation.



Can you elaborate on the last point? I like to think my process for dry hopping and kegging to minimize O2 is pretty good but always open to hearing others processes.
 
You're right. I guess I'd be surprised since it's a brand new system, good quality, etc. But faulty valves do happen. I take all the valves apart and soak and who knows what order i put them back on so I may not always have the same valve on the boil kettle too. But it's worth looking into.

I honestly have a good feeling about the water being the issue. If i remember correctly, last summer i started using more hose water more often for cleaning and sanitizing. This flavor was less prevalent (but still there) and i had made good beers before that when i was using water either out of the sink or through the fridge filter in the kitchen for sanitizing. It's gotten worse and I think this is whats going on. I'm going to focus on sanitizing strictly with a distilled (or other store bought) water mix to see if this makes a difference. If not, I'll have to start exploring some of these other options and try to isolate, starting with those valves.

I didn't realize you were already breaking them down. If that's the case, I'm sure you're confident there's nothing built up in there. If you're going to start with the water, why not also bottle half the batch:

- If the keg and bottles are both good, woo-hoo! Problem solved
- If they are both bad, the next step would be to focus on what they have in common (brew gear, fermentation vessel, siphon)
- If the bottles are good but the keg is bad, then you'll know to focus on your kegging setup

Best of luck getting it nailed down quick!
 
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Can you elaborate on the last point? I like to think my process for dry hopping and kegging to minimize O2 is pretty good but always open to hearing others processes.

yes- all transfers under CO2 pressure. And I am going to try the ballon filled w CO2 trick when I drop the trub from the conical next go around. I am also going to either re-think dry hopping altogether (whirlpool and hop stand seem to be working well for me) or go to pellets and make it super quick.
 
I didn't realize you were already breaking them down. If that's the case, I'm sure you're confident there's nothing built up in there. If you're going to start with the water, why not also bottle half the batch:

- If the keg and bottles are both good, woo-hoo! Problem solved
- If they are both bad, the next step would be to focus on what they have in common (brew gear, fermentation vessel, siphon)
- If the bottles are good but the keg is bad, then you'll know to focus on your kegging setup

Best of luck getting it nailed down quick!

I realized after i wrote it that I worded it incorrectly. I havent been breaking the valves down, i break the system down every time and put all the valves in a PBW solution to soak. So I may have a different valve on the boil kettle than i did from the time before. So breaking down the valves themselves is still a viable option to try. Good additional pointers here too. Thanks for the ideas.
 
I am also going to either re-think dry hopping altogether (whirlpool and hop stand seem to be working well for me) or go to pellets and make it super quick.

+1
I never dry hop (concerns about oxidation and wild yeast contamination). Most people think I'm crazy, but I sleep better.
 
I understand hops are antimicrobial, but they can carry wild yeast, which can eat the normally unfermentable sugars still in the beer. I also don't open the fermenter for anything if I don't have to - microbes, wild yeast, and air can get in. And I've read lots of posts on this forum where brewers believe they have gotten a bacterial infection this way - maybe correct, maybe not. It's possible the antimicrobial properties sometimes aren't enough to offset the contamination. I admit I'm a fanatic about this, and you're not alone in thinking I'm crazy. It's one of the great things about brewing - everybody decides these things for themselves.
 
I understand hops are antimicrobial, but they can carry wild yeast, which can eat the normally unfermentable sugars still in the beer.

I've never, ever heard of a single case, anywhere, in either commercial or home brew level brewing, of anyone ever ending up with a contaminated batch that could be blamed on adding dry hops. There is simply no basis for this fear whatsoever. Hops protect the beer!

Of all the craft breweries out there dumping bucketloads of dry hops directly into their fermented beer, how come NONE of them have ever reported inadvertently spoiling the batch due to the hops?

It just doesn't happen. It's literally the opposite effect of what hops are supposed to do in beer (protect it).

I also don't open the fermenter for anything if I don't have to - microbes, wild yeast, and air can get in. And I've read lots of posts on this forum where brewers believe they have gotten a bacterial infection this way

From opening the fermenter too much? It can happen. From dry hops? Never.

maybe correct, maybe not. It's possible the antimicrobial properties sometimes aren't enough to offset the contamination.

Then how come it's never happened, anywhere, ever?

It's one of the great things about brewing - everybody decides these things for themselves.

You're missing out on fantastic hop aroma in your beers. Your loss, but don't pretend there's any scientific validity to your opinion. It's irrational. It's not an opinion, it's simply incorrect. You're free to be incorrect, but don't pretend your opinion is just as valid as hundreds of years of brewing science and experience that conclusively demonstrate the opposite.
 
I realized after i wrote it that I worded it incorrectly. I havent been breaking the valves down, i break the system down every time and put all the valves in a PBW solution to soak. So I may have a different valve on the boil kettle than i did from the time before. So breaking down the valves themselves is still a viable option to try. Good additional pointers here too. Thanks for the ideas.

If you are doing this it's just a bit more effort to get a wrench and take the valves apart to fully clean the inside. The gunk that could live in there is likely not touched by a soaking cleaning as it lives in the space between the ball and the wall. I would do this as a first step to rule out this as an issue, as in my mind it's still a high potential to be the culprit here.
 
I have 5 ball valves in my system (Herms, all electric) that I religiously tear down and soak. I'm amazed that there is still crud in there after flowing boiling wort through them.... I also pull the impeller off the pump and clean it. Again, usually some crud.

As far as keg purging is concerned, I pressure ferment so the first cubic foot of fermentation CO2 blankets the wort, the subsequent ones start forcing it out of the spunding valve (~12 psi). Once fermentation is complete I pressure transfer to a clean, cold serving keg using a floating dip tube in the fermenting keg (trub stays at bottom, well away from tube). Since I'm pushing it into the new keg via the dip tube, only the top surface of the beer sees any oxygen. I vent the 2nd keg as pressure builds. The agitation of this alone is releasing CO2 and pushing air up and out. When full, I put the keg on CO2, thus blanketing the top surface (heavier than air). A purist would want to start with the second keg full of CO2, but I have yet to see a need.
 
You're missing out on fantastic hop aroma in your beers. Your loss, but don't pretend there's any scientific validity to your opinion. It's irrational. It's not an opinion, it's simply incorrect. You're free to be incorrect, but don't pretend your opinion is just as valid as hundreds of years of brewing science and experience that conclusively demonstrate the opposite.

I agree that conventional wisdom says dry hopping will not cause an infection (Palmer, BYO's Mr. Wizard, and Brewer's Friend all agree with you). There is some disagreement (http://www.thegreatmaibockaddict.com/dry-hopping.shtml). And many infections are from unknown causes, so nobody knows for sure. The vast majority of brewers definitely should dry hop - very low risk. But I feel that anybody who is hyper paranoid about infection should consider the possible risk. It wouldn't be the first time the experts have been wrong. On the other hand, if I'm wrong, it wouldn't be the first time for that either.
 
The vast majority of brewers definitely should dry hop - very low risk. But I feel that anybody who is hyper paranoid about infection should consider the possible risk. It wouldn't be the first time the experts have been wrong. On the other hand, if I'm wrong, it wouldn't be the first time for that either.

To each his own, but just understand that what you're saying is akin to saying, "I choose to avoid Advil because I feel there's a chance it might give me a headache. I know the entire purpose of it is to CURE headaches, but you know, scientists have been wrong before, and I just don't want to take the chance."
 
So I bottled and kegged some of my most recent batch last night. Made a sanitizer solution with distilled water only. Hopefully I'll learn some things from this in a few weeks. But wont know for sure if the water is playing a factor here until next batch since I used hose water for sanitizer in the fermenter on this one.

Also, judging starts this weekend for the beers I sent off to the homebrew competition. Hopefully I'll lock this down here shortly!
 
I've posted this picture before and had people tell me that opening closing the valves should clear all the debris, but in my experience it does not. The valve pictured below is the valve on my bk whirlpool valve, after brewing and after flushing the lines while opening and closing valves. I do recirculate for the last 15 minutes of the boil to "sanitize" the valve, pumps and heat exchanger.....but if this crud was in there from the last brew I severely doubt it would get sanitized.

As far as purging kegs and oxygen. I keep a keg full of Starsan. I clean a keg with a spray ball and PBW mix then hook up a transfer tube from the outlet of the starsan keg to the outlet of the newly cleaned keg then push the Starsan from the storage keg to the clean keg. Storage keg is now purged of air (mostly there is still and always will be some in the lid and pressure relief valve) and the newly cleaned keg is the storage keg. I then transfer all my fermented beer by pushing with CO2 (conicals now but I did it with carboys too)

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I've posted this picture before and had people tell me that opening closing the valves should clear all the debris, but in my experience it does not. The valve pictured below is the valve on my bk whirlpool valve, after brewing and after flushing the lines while opening and closing valves. I do recirculate for the last 15 minutes of the boil to "sanitize" the valve, pumps and heat exchanger.....but if this crud was in there from the last brew I severely doubt it would get sanitized.

As far as purging kegs and oxygen. I keep a keg full of Starsan. I clean a keg with a spray ball and PBW mix then hook up a transfer tube from the outlet of the starsan keg to the outlet of the newly cleaned keg then push the Starsan from the storage keg to the clean keg. Storage keg is now purged of air (mostly there is still and always will be some in the lid and pressure relief valve) and the newly cleaned keg is the storage keg. I then transfer all my fermented beer by pushing with CO2 (conicals now but I did it with carboys too)

Great pics and writeup, thanks! It's crazy that kind of stuff can get in there like that. I'm planning on taking my valves apart this weekend to check. Sounds like a nice closed transfer system you have in place. Nice little brewery as well!
 
Well I finally received the results back from the competition i entered. 3 beers total. 2 double ipas entered in both the ipa category and into the double ipa category and then a saison. So 10 scoresheets total. They ranged from scores of 25-35. Some of the feedback is as follows:

Plastic, chlorophenol: This is what I suspected and was there on the saison sheet as well as a few of the IPA sheets. Also across both styles referenced a vegetal taste (celery, cabbage).
Soapy: This came back on 3 sheets
Astringent: This came back on a couple

This plastic, chlorophenol, soapy taste just muddies the character of the whole beer. I've done 2 dry hops of about 3-4 days each at 2.5 oz of hops each time (mainly cascade and centennial with small amounts of others in that family) yet the aroma doesnt push out like you'd expect. And the flavor is masked as well.

So on my next brew (brewed IPA 2 weeks ago and kegged on Sunday) I took serious measures to eliminate the use of my chlorinated tap water and garden hose. I used distilled water for brewing (like usual), bought 2 5 gallon jugs of RO water from the grocery store and bought a carbon filter for any additional water I needed. I used the RO water to make a PBW solution in the kettle which i ran through the plate chiller, followed by a filtered water rinse, followed by a RO water sani clean solution where it sat until it was drained and wort added. The only time I'm using a hose is to rinse out the mash tun and boil kettle before starting the cleaning process. And I bought an RV hose coming from water source in my garage vs using the garden hose (although this was the first brew where I used that so the prior brew I used hose water for cleaning but it had plenty of time to dry before this brew).

I may be paranoid but I feel like I was starting to get a hint of this same taste when I pulled a sample of this most recent batch before kegging. I took apart my valves and all was well. Last batch I bottled some and kegged some and no difference so it's not the kegging equipment. Maybe I need to get even more diligent with water? Is the filter not good enough to remove chlorine/chloramine? It's driving me crazy and very disappointing. I have a dunkel fermenting now (brewed a week ago) that im anxious to pull a sample of but not optimistic. Any additional thoughts given the recent competition feedback?
 
I've heard the filters can't remove chloramine, but can chlorine. I've also heard of peoples water sources randomly changing out to chloramine.

If it's not in the kegging equipment I would try some campden tablets and see if that helps.
 

Thanks for the link. I just found a 2014 water report that reports chlorine levels of 1,090 ppb. Massively high. It doesnt distinguish between free and total chlorine but I am expecting chloramine is being used as well. Jacksonville water is terrible (Has shown up on multiple Top 10 Worst Water in America articles) so i guess its possible that even if i only use it for simply rinsing it could have a profound effect regardless of if i follow it with a sanitizer solution thats been made with distilled water.

Basically it sounds like i either need to try making cleaning and rinse water with my filter and even then some campden tablets on top of that, or leave my tap water completely out of the equation and get some RO jugs for those purposes, in addition to the distilled water I brew with. Thoughts?

Also, are campden tablets fine to use for cold water application? I've seen everyone talk about using them for strike water and then brewing with but what about throwing them in 5 gallon jugs of filtered water just to rinse with?
 
My opinion - campden is cheap. Why not? I filter and use tabs for brewing water. I think the key to the filter is a relatively slow flow rate when filling strike water.
 
the potassium metabisulphite (campden tablets) reaction is a chemical one that does not require heat. If you get the tablet dissolved it will quickly get rid of the chlorine /chloramine

How are you calculating your salt additions? Maybe you have a simple error there!?
 
the potassium metabisulphite (campden tablets) reaction is a chemical one that does not require heat. If you get the tablet dissolved it will quickly get rid of the chlorine /chloramine

How are you calculating your salt additions? Maybe you have a simple error there!?

Good to know, thanks. I'll definitely try out some tablets then throughout the process next time.

I've been using Bru'n Water for awhile now and feel like i have a pretty good handle on it. Typically using about half and half of gypsum and Cacl to get the necessary calcium levels I'm looking for and then some baking soda to drive bicarbonate levels. But I'm not sure that even a large mistake with any of those brewing salts would necessarily result in the chlorophenol taste?
 
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