BCS 460 Tell me all about it.

So, it looks fancy, the website speaks in a language that I cannot comprehend...

So, do you use the BCS? How does it physically interface with your laptop? With your SSRs?

What do you use for your temperature probes?

Is there any portion that is wireless?

It is interesting to me on my new build, but I am comfortable with standard PID control because that is what I have used.

Does the BCS PID control also allow for MANUAL mode for a BK?

EDIT: After reading some of the BCS wiki... I am getting more info, but if you use this, Id like your input.

you can make it wireless by installing a wireless bridge

A good place to start may also be the forum on their site: http://forum.embeddedcontrolconcepts.com/

I think a lot of people use the BCS to automate heating, mashing, sparging, and fermentation more so than boiling. While you certainly could do it, there really isn't much point since temp control while boiling isn't needed.

I spoke to some guy on here that uses one and he says he will put his strike water in his HLT before work then log into his controller from work (as it basically acts like a web server) and has his system start heating his strike water so it is ready when he gets home. Sounds ideal to me

RiverCityBrewer said:

I think a lot of people use the BCS to automate heating, mashing, sparging, and fermentation more so than boiling. While you certainly could do it, there really isn't much point since temp control while boiling isn't needed.

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I am using it to control several brewing processes....

It wasnt clear on thier site if there was % output in the PID function, which is why I asked.

I have built electric kettles with PIDs, so I know that temp. control isnt needed, or useful in most applications. In my application it will be though as I my BK will double as a Sous Vide cooking vessel.

My BK will do much more than boil, I am not using the BCS to control a BK, I am using it to control the entire brewery.

chemman14 said:

I spoke to some guy on here that uses one and he says he will put his strike water in his HLT before work then log into his controller from work (as it basically acts like a web server) and has his system start heating his strike water so it is ready when he gets home. Sounds ideal to me

Click to expand...

I know, that is awesome.

So, it comes standard with 6 outputs that I would use for SSRs.

It has 4 temp. inputs, I would use MLT outlet, RIMS Outlet, Boil Kettle and maybe Fermentation later...

So, I could set up processes such as:

State 1: Mash Pump ON,RIMS Heater 1 ON, RIMS Heater 2 ON, Timer 20 minutes

State 2: Mash Pump ON, RIMS heater 1 ON, RIMs heater 2 OFF, BK Pump ON, BK Heater 1 ON, Timer 60 minutes

Oh, this is some crazy stuff...

6 outputs would allow me to control my 9000W RIMS heater and 9000W BK at either 4500W or 9000W by producing an output for each individually, and run the pumps off the 5 and 6 outputs...

Back up... BCS doenst have AUTOTUNE? Well, isnt that just sort of prehistoric? What good is a true PID without the ease of AutoTune?

It is sort of bad enough that there doesnt seem to be any good documentation on how to use this thing, let alone not having AutoTune?

what is auto tune?

chemman14 said:

what is auto tune?

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Where the PID learns your system so that it can program the P I and D values automatically so that you do not have to.

Here are those boards I was talking about, I had 2 of them.
If there is enough interest/demand I could make a board specifically to work with the BCS. The one on the right is attached to the logic and DI board if your wondering.

CodeRage said:

Here are those boards I was talking about, I had 2 of them.
If there is enough interest/demand I could make a board specifically to work with the BCS. The one on the right is attached to the logic and DI board if your wondering.

Click to expand...

Those boards are the switches then, for something like a low amp draw pump?

I can get a 10A SSR for $9... that is pretty cheap, right?

SO you think that the programming of the PID without autotune may not be a killer task Code? Granted, Id probably relish sitting in the garage playing with the thing... BUT at some point I want it to work as well as my old HERMS did.

Anyone using the BCS PID functionality on thier RIMS? How hard was it to program the PID?

yeah, 9 bucks is cheap and you can control the SSRs with the 5vdc signal. Sometimes though you need to use dry contacts so you can put what ever you need on them, DC or AC of any reasonable voltage.

Most industrial PIDs aren't terrible to tune. Be prepared to watch the thing run up and down a whole bunch though It can be kind of suspenseful. "Okay, man we're zooming up to the set point, please start backing off soon, yes, crap massively overshot it!"

I can't speak for the BCS PID though.

The Pol said:

Those boards are the switches then, for something like a low amp draw pump?

I can get a 10A SSR for $9... that is pretty cheap, right?

SO you think that the programming of the PID without autotune may not be a killer task Code? Granted, Id probably relish sitting in the garage playing with the thing... BUT at some point I want it to work as well as my old HERMS did.

Anyone using the BCS PID functionality on thier RIMS? How hard was it to program the PID?

Click to expand...

I brewed saturday with a PID controled 1500watt rims heater. I had the BCS monitoring mash temp. I did NOT auto tune the PID I was using and the mash maintained +/- .1F for the duration.

I am not too worried about programing the BCS PID.

I started with a digital thermometer, then wished I could change temp based on what it said so I went to a PID, then wished I could log the results and tie the whole process together... in comes the BCS.

And yes, you can directly turn outputs on and off from the interface. You can also set % output.

Ed

Ed,
It sounds like you are using the BCS for data logging, not control. Are you using a separate PID controller for that?

CodeRage said:

Ed,
It sounds like you are using the BCS for data logging, not control. Are you using a separate PID controller for that?

Click to expand...

This was my first use of the BCS. I just set it up temporarily to monitor/log (then forgot to save the log).

I plan to use the BCS for control on the new electric rig I'm working on.

Ed

Yes, Ive been using a PID for control of a RIMs heater.

Okay, just making sure I understood you correctly. Thanks

I dont mind messing and tuning it persay... but it depends on the interface, I mean... how deep into the bowels of BCS do I have to do to tune P I and D?

The Pol said:

Those boards are the switches then, for something like a low amp draw pump?

I can get a 10A SSR for $9... that is pretty cheap, right?

SO you think that the programming of the PID without autotune may not be a killer task Code? Granted, Id probably relish sitting in the garage playing with the thing... BUT at some point I want it to work as well as my old HERMS did.

Anyone using the BCS PID functionality on thier RIMS? How hard was it to program the PID?

Click to expand...

I haven't ever worked with a PID system for temp control, just motion control systems, but with a temperature-control system, I would think that you would pretty much just need to nudge the integral factor around a little here or there. P and D are typically more for keeping a profile (things like error while in a move, tuning velocity error, start-up speed, etc).

With a temperature system, I imagine that you only care about overshoot/undershoot/ringing, and that can pretty much be tuned out just using the integral factor. I'd imagine that it's pretty simple. If the system is holding just below the temperature, push up the integral value. If it's overshooting the temperature, and "ringing" from there, adjust it down. Should be amazingly easy if your system is insulated in a reasonable manner, but if not its probably still not that hard.

The integral value is just a multiplier for the value of the error integral. It takes the integral of the error over a given time (area under the error curve), and multiplies it by that value. If the multiplier is large, the system will make really big moves to respond to big errors, and still large moves to respond to small errors. If the value is too small, the system will use a small move to compensate for large errors, and thus might not keep up with things like heat loss. If you find the right value, the system will come up to the set temperature, level off and stay there. You just need to nudge the value around over a couple of runs and you'll be set to go in no time.

Thanks, that is very helpful...

Again, this would be easier for me to visualize if I had my PID manuals here that went with my old system. Since I dont, it isnt so easy to do.

I think I am pulling the trigger on (4) 40A SSRs and heatsinks tonight as well as (2) 10A SSRs to switch my pumps!

The Pol said:

Thanks, that is very helpful...

Again, this would be easier for me to visualize if I had my PID manuals here that went with my old system. Since I dont, it isnt so easy to do.

I think I am pulling the trigger on (4) 40A SSRs and heatsinks tonight as well as (2) 10A SSRs to switch my pumps!

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:rockin:

I say that you add a couple more low amps SSRs, and come Christmas time next year synchronize your lighting display with your brew. I can just see people driving by now "Oooh look, he's completed mashing, and is heating up for the boil now!"

The The P and D allows for a much more aggressive approach to the set point. With an I too large you will over/under shoot all day long. Too small and you will grow old before it gets to the set point

CodeRage said:

The The P and D allows for a much more aggressive approach to the set point. With an I too large you will over/under shoot all day long. Too small and you will grow old before it gets to the set point

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That helps... like I said, I dont mind drinking and running water tests all day long in the garage. But at some point I will want to make beer. Down to 16 gallons on hand now...

CodeRage said:

The The P and D allows for a much more aggressive approach to the set point. With an I too large you will over/under shoot all day long. Too small and you will grow old before it gets to the set point

Click to expand...

This is true too. I figured that it might not be such a big deal with a temp control; ie that it would ramp up to 100% for 90+% of the heating cycle regardless of the P-D values because the error is so large, and then ramp down and smoothly control climb to the final temperature with the I value. I guess that strong P-D values could reduce those last couple of minutes if you set them aggressively.

It doesn't look like it would be too hard to adjust the parameters. They're right there on a settings page:

http://www.embeddedcontrolconcepts....System_Settings#Miscellaneous_System_Settings

Info on their PID loop:

http://www.embeddedcontrolconcepts.com/wiki/index.php?title=PID_Implementation



It's nice that I have an I-limit setting (the integral value, since it's an integral and has memory, can quickly overload the loop, aka windup, so it's good to have an I-limit so that you can help prevent that). I'm working with this homebrew Israeli motion pedestal right now without an I-limit, everything just winds up and does not wind down. Worst. Implementation. Ever. I'm adjusting things like motor size and constants to try and control the wind-up.

Pulled the trigger on (6) SSRs and (4) Heatsinks for $80 shipped :rockin:

Thanks guys, you are making me feel better about possibly using the BCS on my new rig.

(4) 40A SSRs with heatsinks
(2) 25A SSRs with no heat sinks (for pumps)

25A is overkill for the pumps, but they were dirt cheap.

I have been working on converting kegs and trying to design the power side of my electric system. On the drawings, I'm trying to keep the "Control" circuits generic enough that I can use the BCS I have or with a change to a 12v power supply use a Brewtroller instead.

In my spare, spare time I am trying to learn the BCS. You can select an MP3 file to use as an Alarm. I just found out how to make it work... the MP3 has to be available on the network. These little things drive me up the wall and with out a manual, well I'll figure it out eventually.

Ed

The BCS will actually save me money...

Over building a full control panel
Buying a bunch of switches
Water tight switch covers
Silk Screening the panel

All in all... having complete control to turn on and off elements and pumps in the BCS will save me money. Nice... I like that.

The Pol said:

The BCS will actually save me money...

Over building a full control panel
Buying a bunch of switches
Water tight switch covers
Silk Screening the panel

All in all... having complete control to turn on and off elements and pumps in the BCS will save me money. Nice... I like that.

Click to expand...

Yep... I bought a 16 x16 slant top box to build a control panel... Now I'm trying to think of things I can add to fill up the real estate.

With the BCS, regardless of process/state, you can turn on or off an output with a mouse click. I still plan to have selector switches for; On - Off - Controlled for each element and pump.

I don't want something to glitch the software and fry an element or something.

What does the BCS require for power?

I am actually getting pretty thrilled to have a computer/web based control so that I can have a rig with no control panel. I do hate panel builds

The Pol said:

What does the BCS require for power?

I am actually getting pretty thrilled to have a computer/web based control so that I can have a rig with no control panel. I do hate panel builds

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It comes with a 6vdc wall wort.

I really don't want a duplex outlet in my box so I'm looking for alternatives.

Is your new rig going to be in a fixed position or are you gonna have a receptacle/plug? Have you found / priced power cord & connectors?

I spent over $100 this week on 6/4 SO cord and a receptacle, not counting the plug. This crap adds up quick.

Oh, another advantage of a PC in the area... Timers... no need for kitchen timers any more

Ohio-Ed said:

It comes with a 6vdc wall wort.

I really don't want a duplex outlet in my box so I'm looking for alternatives.

Is your new rig going to be in a fixed position or are you gonna have a receptacle/plug? Have you found / priced power cord & connectors?

I spent over $100 this week on 6/4 SO cord and a receptacle, not counting the plug. This crap adds up quick.

Oh, another advantage of a PC in the area... Timers... no need for kitchen timers any more

Click to expand...

Muy rig will be moveable... it will have a 10' 50A power cord with TWO Male ends. Receptacle on the wall, receptacle on the rig... this way I can have the system on display without a large power cord attached. The 10' cord was $18. (6/4)

So, you are telling me that I need to have a 120VAC outlet wired inside my electronics bay. Well, that isnt a HUge deal.

I have the rigs power supply already since I had my other E-rig already set up here.

Not concerned with 2 male connectors and 220v? Sounds like potential death to me. Especially around liquid.

Ohio-Ed, I'd like to see what you come up with for a power supply. I asked about this a couple weeks ago, got some suggestions as to a simple circuit. I plan to go from my 24v transformer to the 6v for the BCS.

RonRock said:

Not concerned with 2 male connectors and 220v? Sounds like potential death to me. Especially around liquid.

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Not really worried no, I was supposed to have died from my last build.

The connection to the rig will be from the underside of the sculpture, completely shielded from water. You wont even be able to see the connection when the cord is not connected. VERY clean...

The Pol said:

Not really worried no, I was supposed to have died from my last build.

The connection to the rig will be from the underside of the sculpture, completely shielded from water. You wont even be able to see the connection when the cord is not connected. VERY clean...

Click to expand...

That wont save you from one of those moments after a long brew day and want to wrap thing up and unplug the brewery first and accidentally touch a blade on the connector.

Or in your excitement to get started you plug it into the wall fist and whip it around like a regular extension cord and hit your self or some one else.

aesthetic are nice but a cord with 2 male ends is a Darwin award that will eventually happen. Seriously, Get a male receptacle for the brewery or put a male pig tail on it.

Where did you end up getting the SSRs from?

Where can I find a male 50A 4 prong receptacle for the rig? Never seen one.

Honestly I dont think I am stupid enough to crawl on the floor to unplug my rig BEFORE unplugging from the wall. But to appease the masses... sure, where do I get one?

The plan for the detachable cord isnt to remove it between brew sessions, but to remove it for when the rig is on display in the house.

I see your point, but didnt figure I had an option for a 50A male 4 prong receptacle on the stand itself.

SSRs were Ebay finds

The Pol said:

Not really worried no, I was supposed to have died from my last build.

The connection to the rig will be from the underside of the sculpture, completely shielded from water. You wont even be able to see the connection when the cord is not connected. VERY clean...

Click to expand...

Pol, you may have thought this through, but I just feel the need to say the issue is with the cord having 2 male ends. The problem is exposed current if you disconnect the rig before disconnecting the the cord from the wall. When you see the male end of a cord laying on the ground it is a normal assumption that it is safe.

You would be better with a short pigtail coming out of your box if you don't want to go the twist lock / recessed receptacle route.

Enough said on that subject.

I'm thinking about opening the enclosure of my BCS and mounting it inside my box. Then I'd use a panel mount power supply... Ideally, I'd like to have one with 5,6 and 12vdc.

Where did you find a 10' 6/4 cord for $18? I paid $4.50/foot just for the cord with out a plug.

Crap I'm slow.