Utopia Clone #3 Perfecting Nirvanha

Bite me.

I'm perfectly willing to sacrifice a virgin if it means I don't have to listen to you know who on the 26th.

PTN

Put a sheeeet load of holes throughout and that will minimize any cr@p coming out of cb's mouth.....

K.I.S.S - Keep It Simple Stupid

paulthenurse said:

Any fluid/hydraulic engineers out there?

I'm planning on cutting (or drilling) channels (or holes) in the new manifold. It occurred to me that it might make sense to put the majority of the cuts away from the middle and have fewer in towards the center so the the fluid collected at the periphery doesn't stagnate at the end of a long line.

I'm probably not making myself clear, let me try again. If instead of an octagonal shape the manifold were a straight line would it be wise to have more cuts at the outer end of the line? It seems to me that if I have an equal number of cuts evenly spaced the ones closest to the point where the wort goes up and out would have an easier time moving the liquid along and fluid would 'back up' towards the end.

So should I have relatively more cuts in the areas like the dead end spurs and along the periphery and less as I approach the center area. I plan on stopping an inch or so away from the 45* fittings so I'm not as likely to draw down the sides and channel wort than way.

Or should I just have a gazzilion cuts/holes everywhere and it will all be a moot point?


PTN

Click to expand...

I think you are right that it will tend to pull more towards the center. I'd do it like you're thinking, more holes as you move away from the center.

Ok... here are my 100% honest, not-trash-talking opinions...

1) I think you're over thinking it. Just put a ton of holes everywhere. The LAST thing you want to do is SUCK wort into that manifold in any significant way. You want the manifold to collect wort as it naturally settles to the bottom and the wort should settle in a relatively uniform way if the "sparge arm" on top is anything other than a firehose drilling the returned wort straight into the mash. if you start sucking wort into the manifold, that's when you start compacting the mash.

2) The idea of the manifold "sucking" wort in is what I see as the huge problem here. What is the total grain bill weight? 130 lbs?? Something like that? I don't see how you're going to possibly circulate wort (via HERMS) through 130 lbs of grain with a two foot diameter at the base of the tun. The volume of wort you're going to need to circulate (draw in through the manifold) in order to keep that temp up (spray foam insulated or not) is going to be significant.... and as soon as you come remotely close to the flow volume you're going to need you're going to start sucking wort in and that grain bed is going to turn into a block of cement.

It's not a matter of how big the manifold is... (1/2 inch vs 3/4)... or how many holes you put in it. It is a function of how many gallons you need to circulate versus how many gallons will naturally flow through that grain bed over a given period of time.

If you need to pump 5 gallons per minute in order to keep the temp up... and the wort will only naturally flow through 130 lbs of grain in a two foot diameter tun at half a gallon per minute... you're going to be sucking the wort and mash down and again... it will turn into a block of cement.


Now for my trash-talking summary...

I am in a no-lose situation here. If I'm wrong and this ridiculous plan of yours works... great... I get good beer. If I'm right... screw it, I don't care about the beer. It'll be YEARS of making fun of you mercilessly. I'll let you guess which one I'm rooting for more.

I think back with a certain longing to the days twenty five years ago when I didn't know any other homebrewers and it wad just me, a pot and some rusty cans of stale malt extract. Now the ingredients are way better but the reverse side of that coin is you and Yeager. Ting and Yang, good and bad, blessings and curses. And so it goes.

PTN

... counting down the days.

I'm excited to learn from the country's foremost expert on HERMS mashing. I mean, just look at the massive body of experience you have!

Should be great.... very enlightening for us dolts.

Cape Brewing said:

Should be great.... very enlightening for us dolts.

Click to expand...

If there is a God in heaven he'll send down a bolt of lightening to smite you dolts.

PTN

Like I keep saying boss... you better be going to bed every night only after dropping to your knees and praying for an hour to God almighty that this thing doesn't stick or ANY other problems arise from your little creation. I mean the "I swear I'll never touch myself again" type of praying.

You think your eff up on the consecretion clone gets a lotta air time?? Ohhhhh man... this will DWARF that.

2) The idea of the manifold "sucking" wort in is what I see as the huge problem here. What is the total grain bill weight? 130 lbs?? Something like that? I don't see how you're going to possibly circulate wort (via HERMS) through 130 lbs of grain with a two foot diameter at the base of the tun. The volume of wort you're going to need to circulate (draw in through the manifold) in order to keep that temp up (spray foam insulated or not) is going to be significant.... and as soon as you come remotely close to the flow volume you're going to need you're going to start sucking wort in and that grain bed is going to turn into a block of cement.

Click to expand...

Could you just put an IC in the mash and circulate hot water through it to maintain temp? Then lauter/sparge into a grant, etc.

you could... sure. and I'm sure that is a back up plan that Captain Disaster here has in the back of his mind.

My only concern with that is still the size of this grain bill and the fact that he hasn't (nor is he going to) test this thing before just loading it up with 130 lbs of grain for a beer he really wants to come out right.

I think (just my opinion) that the mass of this mash is going to be tough to heat with an IC. Think about it this way... Think about how many gallons of jsut wort he's gonna have in this thing... what is it Paul??? 40 or something that you're boiling down to 15?

Just think how long it would take you to CHILL 40 gallons a few degrees with a small IC (which is what he's got). Now add the mass of 130 lbs of grain. You would have to have that IC pumping, basically, boiling water and then you would have to be stirring the mash like a fiend... if not... you've got the small amount of mash just touching the IC getting scorched with the rest turning cold.

But... I could be way off... I have no idea how this is going to work out. We'll see.

As a side note though... and this is in my non-trash talking voice... dontcha think it makes more sense to just use multiple rigs that have been used and therefore tested a number of times instead of saying, "HEY!!! I'm gonna take a mash that I've ALREADY stuck on my regular rig, double the grain bill and mash it in a new piece of equipment that I've never used before!!"? I know I'm a dolt and all but that doesn't seem like the best approach.

The hot-water-in-an-immersion-chiller idea would probably work OK with a thin mash (like 2qts/pound), but the sheer amount of grain that's involved likely makes that an impossibility. What kind of water-to-grain ratio are you targeting, Paulie?

EDIT: 'course, with a thinner mash, most of these problems (sticking the mash, maintaining temp) would be much less of an issue across the board.

You forget, young Jedi, you have class C stock with NO vote. Stop trying to enlist the rest of the unwashed masses to your jihad .

I'll get back to you on the other thing, timing sucks with our trip coming up and me out of work.

PTN

Who said I was voting? I'm just explaining to other curious onlookers why your plan is a disaster waiting to happen.

We ARE webcasting this thing right???

This is a brewing trainwreck in the making that would be a sin to withhold from the rest of the brewing world.


yeah... i had a feeling you were gonna say that... hence the PM. Just lemme know cause if you want out I'll ask around.

the_bird said:

The hot-water-in-an-immersion-chiller idea would probably work OK with a thin mash (like 2qts/pound), but the sheer amount of grain that's involved likely makes that an impossibility. What kind of water-to-grain ratio are you targeting, Paulie?

EDIT: 'course, with a thinner mash, most of these problems (sticking the mash, maintaining temp) would be much less of an issue across the board.

Click to expand...

We can hole all the grain and waterat just over 1.5. We also plan on using at least two IC's in series. If anyone has extras we can use we'll take em

PTN

pfft.. pfft...

Yea I was just thinking out loud I guess, I've never brewed HERMS/RIMS or anything like that. But I wasn't suggesting to heat the mash with the IC, just maintain a mash temp. But again, I brew in Florida and never have to deal with kind of cold you guys get.

EDIT: if those IC's in series are in the mash, why wouldn't you run them in parallel? In series, it seems the second IC will be pretty much at mash temp (after being cooled by the mash in the first IC) and doing nothing except restricting flow.

Oh it's not a bad idea Spanish... Like Bird was saying though (and I agree with Bird)... given the size of this mash and the fact that it is going to be February in New england (to your point), we're skeptical that it'll work. Hope I'm not putting words in your mouth Bird.

It's ok though...(and i'm switching my trash talking voice back on)... Paul's grand solution is to plumb up a couple ICs "in series"... which'll be great since by the time the water has run through the first IC, it'll have already transferred all its heat and therefore the second one will do... ummm... nothing.

ORRRRRRR He could run multiple pumps off of multiple boil pots so each one of the ICs he's somehow planning on fitting in this tun... along with stirring the mash non-stop like I was saying before.... in order to keep EACH IC hot.

... you know... cause that makes more sense than simply using multiple rigs.

If needed, we can use my keggle and pump as an HLT, I just don't have an IC anymore (might be able to fix my old one, it split in the garage last winter but I think I have the pieces to fix it).

Just outta curiousity Pauly...

how many ICs you think you're getting in this thing??

Meh, you should be able to rib-cage three of them in there, if you needed to.

Oh don't encourage him Bird. Remember... you have a bottle on the line with this batch.

Oh sorry, I forgot my fourth grade basic electric science. Series vs parallel. ExCUSE MEEEEEE!

PTN

Ohhh... so you're just going to run more pumps and more pots than you would if you were just using multiple rigs... all of the sake of using a plastic mash tun with no lid and some spray foam on the sides.

GOT IT... sorry... I was giving you the benefit of the doubt and were assuming you weren't actually thinking THAT.

Heck with just webcasting. I'm video taping this as well. I can see the million hits on Youtube now.

Who said we don't have a cover? Chicken Little aka Cape Brewing?



Just cut the slots, plenty towards the periphery, less towards the center, plenty of slots in any case. This should work well. I hope to da schweet baby Jeebus.



PTN

Were you having seizures while cutting that??

Here... just had to fix that pic quickly...


That's better

Listen, Courtney might tell you that she is satisfied with your little Daisy air pop gun, but don't think for a minute she really means it.

PTN

Please tell me you are going to Photoshop that and make more tee shirts.

PTN

Cause I got a camera too, Brother.

Just saying.

PTN

BTW, It's 'Mega Tun.' The T on the Tun is capitalized and the rest of the letters are not

PTN

Whatever you say MegaTun.

Maybe this year I'll make you up a T-shirt to look like a super hero's chest with a big "MT" in the center like Superman's "S"... we'll get you a cape... you can pretend to fly around.

"Ohhhh no!!! I'm not getting the efficiency I thought I was going to get!!! I wish there there was someone who could help me!!!"

DAAAAAANT DAAAAANT DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH!!!!!

"HAVE NO FEAR!!!!! MEGATUN IS HERE!!!!!!"

Lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We've apparently been hanging out too long. That's hilarious. I wrote my post before I read your three quick ones.

ok, enough fun for today. I gotta bah I gotta hit.

I didn't want to post this pic but Babalu begged me to do it this afternoon while I was there.

PTN

I dont get it.

I think Paulie's threatening to pipe bomb you.

I've got my $3, when can I get my MegaTun shirt? Seems like it should be more Transformers than Superman, though.

Just as a bit of explanation for those of you who don't live up here, my boy Cape Brewing has built a monstrosity of a brew rig in his garage. We've already burned up entire forests chronicling the building of this Rube Goldberg maching. Babalu87 nickenamed Brian's brew rig "Peace in the Middle East" because they were both about as likely to happen in our lifetime.

Anyways, Mr Mouth leaves this hunk of metal, that would leave Andy Warhol scratching his head, in his garage, full of water.

Here.

In Massachusetts.

Over the winter.

BTW, the average temp around here this winter has been just slightly colder the far side of the moon. Approaching the average temperature of my ex's heart. Yes, it's been THAT cold.

And then Captain Genius invites everyone in the club over to his house for his "RhinouserouseEmuDuckbBilledPlatypusThreeToedSlothSeaCucumer" Brew Day. And then he stands there, all confused, when his brew rig starts spraying water like its a WWII submarine movie and the Germans are dropping depth charges.

This pic documents 1/100th of the carnage.

"Captain Cape Brewing, we're reaching hull crush depth!!!! Do something!!!!!"

PTN

"Scotty, can you give me more power?"

"Aye Cap'n, I'm trying but those cut rate dilithium crystals you bought can only do so much!"

"Give it all you've got, Scotty, or that barstid PTN will hit us while our shields are down. We CAN"T LET THE TRUTH GET OUT!!!!!!!!"

"Aye Skipper!"

PTN

paulthenurse said:

We can hole all the grain and waterat just over 1.5. We also plan on using at least two IC's in series. If anyone has extras we can use we'll take em

PTN

Click to expand...

I can bring my plate chiller and pump to help cool. I also can bring my immersion chiller and my LT but like cape said.....

Oh I get it! Yeah. Lemme translate "paul" for everyone else.

I have a 45 gal HERMS system that, other than my FIRST run on it has worked perfectly. I make crappy beer but I don't think that is the rig's fault. That and when Paul was trying to learn how to build HIS current rig... Ask him who he came to visit for suggestions. I'll give you a hint. It was me.

So yes, I invited guys over for a stuffed pig which Paul has complimented a number of times for it's shear awesomeness (there is a thread on HBT where he does it). We were all supposed tobrew that day and yes, I left some water in the hard plumbed areas of my rig and it DID freeze up. Did I split any pipes? No. Did I have leaks? Yes. A few of my solenoids had their rubber gaskets pushed out by the ice so yes, I had drips. I ended up not brewing because it was too much of a PITA to defrost everything. That and I had a pump problem (yet another thread. Look up "march 809 losing prime")

So 1) Paul's split pipes pic was NOT of my rig 2) he's really chubby 3) he's simply trying to deflect attention from his own insanely stupid "megaton" idea