Auber SYL-2352 Overshoots mash temp by about 5 degrees.

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BrewinBigD

BrewinBigD

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Hey guys,
i just finished assembling my E brewery the other night and wanna do a full run on the system just using water to start dialing it in.
i connected my temp probes, and elements to the control panel and set the basics on the temp controller. (set probe type, temp type, etc,, and set a tatger temp of 154 degrees to see how long it would take to ramp up. the system started quiet, then as the water warmed you could hear the element fire o and off as the temp controller droe it up to set point. BOOM! 20 minutes,, mash temp. then as i think the element is getting ready to slow its on off cycle, it fires again,, and contiues to fire until about 159 degrees before it shuts off.
is this a common occurrence for new controllers? is there a way to prevent overshooting my target temps through a settings change orshouldnt the controller automatically compute the P, the I and the D?

:mug:

cheeahs drink some beeahs
 
You probably need to let the controller perform an auto-tune. The stock settings in my 2352 were far too conservative and also produced an overshoot. After the auto-tune, it was much better for my system.

Also, be sure to check your temperature probe offset against a trusted (preferably, calibrated) thermometer. I use a k-type thermocouple with a long lead and I had to dial in about 30 degrees of offset to provide a decent agreement with my NIST-calibrated reference thermometer. Do not rely on what the PID says the temperature is until this calibration is performed or use another external thermometer to assess the mash temp.
 
mabrungard said:
You probably need to let the controller perform an auto-tune. The stock settings in my 2352 were far too conservative and also produced an overshoot. After the auto-tune, it was much better for my system.

Also, be sure to check your temperature probe offset against a trusted (preferably, calibrated) thermometer. I use a k-type thermocouple with a long lead and I had to dial in about 30 degrees of offset to provide a decent agreement with my NIST-calibrated reference thermometer. Do not rely on what the PID says the temperature is until this calibration is performed or use another external thermometer to assess the mash temp.
Click to expand...

Hopefully not hijacking..

Thanks Martin,

How do we perform an auto-tune?

My RTD reads dead nuts, verified by two lab-calibrated therms.

Heating strike water is perfect: It reaches target temp, drops one degree, kicks on, bumps up to target temp, and dithers right there all day long. Nice.

Then I dough in. It drops several degrees, then overshoots like a crazed SOB. Both the temp probe and element are fully submerged, too. I have to monkey with (turn down) my target temp to get mash temp where I want it. Two brews so far.

What to do?

Thanks
 
Auto-tune is invoked by scrolling through the menu to the At spot and then you change the normally "3" setting to either "1 or 2".

RTD's are inherently more accurate than thermocouples. I've got about 6 ft of cable to the probe and that probably affected my settings. Oh well. At least its correctable.

You didn't describe where the temperature sensor is located with respect to the heating source in the flow circuit. For best performance and repeatability, the sensor needs to be as close as possible to the heat source so that there is less chance for overshoot. I have my sensor immediately downstream of the heater. I also have manual dial thermometers in my wort circuit at the inlet and outlet of the mash tun. The temps between all the measurement points can be off by several degrees when stepping up the temps, but they will tend to fall in line as the system reaches equilibrium. Having great insulation on the tun and all wort circuits helps reduce heat losses.
 
i figured it was an auto tuning type issue. them temp readings were outta the box, and was dead on with my brewmometer, which may be a few degrees off as ive yet to bring everything into work and compare it in our temp chamber.

when i firs decided to go electric, i had two CAL controls temp controllers without the autotune and i had to manually calculate the proportional, integral and derivative values. a real PITA to begin with and even more of a pain trying to do in my cold as balls garage.
 
IMHO the best way to do an autotune is slightly below the target temp and to do it in the range where the PID will be working. For example, 154F for mash.

To quote myself:

At (auto tuning): The first few times you brew the temperature may rise higher or drop lower than the temperature you set. This is normal. The PID will automatically learn the heating and cooling characteristics of your setup and tune itself over time to provide more precise temperature control. This learning can also be forced by having the PID perform auto tuning. Auto tuning only needs to be performed once. If anything drastic changes about your setup, consider performing it again. To perform auto tuning, do the following:

1. Fill your tank with water and set the PID to a typical mash temperature of around 154F.

2. Once the water is approximately 10 degrees below the 154F set temperature, set the At setting to 2. Auto tuning will automatically start after 10 seconds. For the next 10-20 minutes the PID will automatically turn the heating element on and off multiple times to see how fast temperature rises and drops in order to set the proportinal, integral, and derivative parameters automatically. The A/M light will blink during auto tuning. Once auto tuning is complete the At setting will return to the default value of 3.
Click to expand...

Kal
 
Thanks Kal, and your website is awesome too. I based my setup roughly on yours but passed on the mechanical contactors and metering hardware. So far its working great!
 
I'll have to run through the AT again...but boy am I ticked! Doing a n IPA, set mash to 153f, and heating element was cycling still at 170f. Already had thermometer offsets set...ran auto tune before, just water.

I set mash temp to 143, actual temp 160...element still firing! Set mash tem 133, actual temp 162, element still firing. Set mash temp 125f, actual temp 164f...element still firing! Set mash temp 116, actual temp 166, still cycling and firing.

If this is normal operation they need to get their stuff together... 168 and still firing...what the f!@!! I was hoping some temperature would get it under control, I turned it off...what the heck! I sure hope this is something I'm doing wrong. By the way, first brew it overshot, but got control and synched to mash temp nicely
 
Thanks for the advice, Bishop. But I just bought this pid, and put the control panel together. I'd like to get this working if possible. But I do hear you and will certainly keep it in mind.

I hope I don't have to, but if I do have to get the other controller, is it a direct swap wiring wise? Well terminals may be changed...but the rest of the wiring.

Still set in auto-tune. Set temp 153f, actual temp 197f. Hearing element is still cycling on and off. WTF!
 
wishingiwasfishing said:
Thanks for the advice, Bishop. But I just bought this pid, and put the control panel together. I'd like to get this working if possible. But I do hear you and will certainly keep it in mind.

I hope I don't have to, but if I do have to get the other controller, is it a direct swap wiring wise? Well terminals may be changed...but the rest of the wiring.

Still set in auto-tune. Set temp 153f, actual temp 197f. Hearing element is still cycling on and off. WTF!
Click to expand...

Yes, terminal assignments on the DSPR are different than the PID, but everything else in the panel stays the same. If you are using the alarms on your PID, then you probably want the DSPR300, rather than the DSPR120.

Brew on :mug:
 
The_Bishop said:
Wishing, I spent *entirely* too long trying to get a PID stable. Any change in grain bill would throw it for a loop. I know it's additional money but to me, my sanity was worth it.
Click to expand...

Can you describe to me the normal operation for a mash, with this device, and then for a boil? What downfalls does this controller have, are there any areas it doesn't do as well as the 2352 pid?

I just bought the Auber DIY-biab, with pid...I certainly don't want to regret replacing my current pid with something that also has problems of its own.

I hope you can understand my reluctance...I'll be listening.

Thanks
 
It's pretty simple. In mash mode, you set the temperature you desire and it fires the element to get you there. When it's close to the set point, it begins the 'feather' the element in short on-off pulses.

On my stand, it was almost dead-on out of the box. There are only 1-2 parameters to 'tune' but as it comes it's 90% of the way there. It does *not* overshoot.

Another benefit is in boil mode. It cycles the element at the same frequency the mains run at, so in the US it's 60hz. A PID is usually on a 2 second cycle.

Honestly, for brewing they're head and shoulders above a PID for ease of use.
 
The_Bishop said:
It's pretty simple. In mash mode, you set the temperature you desire and it fires the element to get you there. When it's close to the set point, it begins the 'feather' the element in short on-off pulses.

On my stand, it was almost dead-on out of the box. There are only 1-2 parameters to 'tune' but as it comes it's 90% of the way there. It does *not* overshoot.

Another benefit is in boil mode. It cycles the element at the same frequency the mains run at, so in the US it's 60hz. A PID is usually on a 2 second cycle.

Honestly, for brewing they're head and shoulders above a PID for ease of use.
Click to expand...


Thanks for the advice. Now, do I order one right away or wait to hear back from Auber. It does seem it would be in my own best interest to go ahead and get it. Thanks for the advice...you wouldn't believe how furious I was yesterday dealing with this thing...UGH!
 
wishingiwasfishing said:
Thanks for the advice. Now, do I order one right away or wait to hear back from Auber. It does seem it would be in my own best interest to go ahead and get it. Thanks for the advice...you wouldn't believe how furious I was yesterday dealing with this thing...UGH!
Click to expand...
Ask them to swap the units, and you just pay the difference.

Brew on :mug:
 
Okay, an update on my overheating problem



I had called Auber Ins. while I was at work and away from my panel. After some discussion I was asked to set in some parameters I=350, P=40, D=2, T=2. I was also asked to ensure that the 2352 was set in auto mode. I was pretty sure that the panel was set in auto mode as I set the temperature to various mash temperatures. When I got home I checked everything out and set the new parameters.

Bottom line, the PID was set in manual mode, while the display was showing the temperature that can be changed. It was complete user error. I still get a little bit of overshoot (few degrees) that takes a while to come down.


Previously I've used induction burners when brewing, so this is my first exposure to electric brewing, with temp control. Hopefully my mistake could help someone else just starting off in PID brewing.

thanks all for the suggestions.
 

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