Moving primary to a different location

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kanddr

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I have to move my primary down to my basement to help keep the fermentation temps where I want which is in the mid 60's for my Liberty Cream Ale. I pitched 2 days ago and had a good, quick fermentation and the bubbles are currently about every 8 seconds in the airlock. Will moving my primary bucket from my upstairs down to my basement (carefully) disrupt the fermentation process such as making the krausen fall quicker than it should or anything?

I know, relax, but I'm just curious.

FYI, I'm using Safale 05 and the current temps are 68-70 and I would prefer them in the mid 60's.
 
It won't distrupt the fermentation process, but it may disrupt the airlock bubbling which is not the same thing. Stop counting your stupid airlock bubbles, it means absolutely nothing. Some airlocks never bubble, so how do you count them?

Airlock bubbles is not the same as fermentation or even rate of fermentation...it's just bubbling... Airlocks are vents not magic fermentation gauges.
 
Stop counting your stupid airlock bubbles, it means absolutely nothing.
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I have no life so it's my entertainment :)

No problem, I realize it doesnt mean that it's fermenting or not. It's my second batch so I'm still a bit anal about stuff but I'm learning though. My first batch was racked over to a secondary after a week in the primary but I'm leaving this batch on the primary for at least 3 weeks as the majority here suggest.
 
kanddr said:
I have no life so it's my entertainment :)

No problem, I realize it doesnt mean that it's fermenting or not. It's my second batch so I'm still a bit anal about stuff but I'm learning though. My first batch was racked over to a secondary after a week in the primary but I'm leaving this batch on the primary for at least 3 weeks as the majority here suggest.
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But what if it's done before 3 weeks? Or, heaven forbid, after? I wouldn't set an arbitrary timeline - use your hydrometer and taste your samples. Once the gravity readings are consistent, yeast has flocculated and the beer tastes right, either get it into a secondary or bottle/keg it. That could happen in 10 days or 30 days, depending on a whole host of variables.
 
Not much you can do about it now, but you're actually better off going the other way. At the outset, the yeast will keep themselves warm in relatively cold temperatures. As the primary fermentation subsides, warming the beer will keep the yeast active and metabolizing compounds responsible for off flavors.

If I were you, I'd keep it where it is or even warm it up for a bit to help the yeast clean up after itself. I'm still working on a temperature controlled fermentation chamber, so generally, I'll start wort off in the basement (about 62F lately) and after 3 or 4 days, move it to a bathtub filled with 70F water. That helps in two ways. First is the warming that I talked about and second is that yeast hate big temperature swings. Adding a lot of thermal mass helps even those out.
 
TTB-J said:
But what if it's done before 3 weeks? Or, heaven forbid, after? I wouldn't set an arbitrary timeline - use your hydrometer and taste your samples. Once the gravity readings are consistent, yeast has flocculated and the beer tastes right, either get it into a secondary or bottle/keg it. That could happen in 10 days or 30 days, depending on a whole host of variables.
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What? Such common sense has no place here in HBT. 4 weeks in primary bare minimum!

Seriously, though, I think your advice is spot-on, but you're liable to stir up a can of worms around here. Best middle-of-the-road advice I can give is "if in doubt, wait." For the most part, aging won't hurt, and just might help. But if you've given a month to a beer that's 1.055 or less, chances are it won't get better.
 
gr8shandini said:
Not much you can do about it now, but you're actually better off going the other way. At the outset, the yeast will keep themselves warm in relatively cold temperatures. As the primary fermentation subsides, warming the beer will keep the yeast active and metabolizing compounds responsible for off flavors.

If I were you, I'd keep it where it is or even warm it up for a bit to help the yeast clean up after itself. I'm still working on a temperature controlled fermentation chamber, so generally, I'll start wort off in the basement (about 62F lately) and after 3 or 4 days, move it to a bathtub filled with 70F water. That helps in two ways. First is the warming that I talked about and second is that yeast hate big temperature swings. Adding a lot of thermal mass helps even those out.
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Huh? Oh damn. I've got to stop taking random advice. I was told the opposite of this: that once fermentation subsides, keeping the wort in cooler temps would help with sedimentation and clearing the beer. I literally *just* moved my wort back down to the garage because it's 80 degrees out today, and I was worried the upper rooms would become too hot.

Thanks for the info.
 
gr8shandini said:
What? Such common sense has no place here in HBT. 4 weeks in primary bare minimum!

Seriously, though, I think your advice is spot-on, but you're liable to stir up a can of worms around here. Best middle-of-the-road advice I can give is "if in doubt, wait." For the most part, aging won't hurt, and just might help. But if you've given a month to a beer that's 1.055 or less, chances are it won't get better.
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Okay, I think that setting a "not before this date" schedule is probably a good thing for new brewers such as myself. You can say that yeah, the hydrometer readings are stable, but how do you know it "tastes right" if you aren't used to sampling warm flat beer that is still going to undergo a bottle-conditioning phase?

My first batch, I rushed out of the primary after 10 days. It was done attenuating for sure, but knowing what I know now, I think it would have benefited from another week or so in primary for the yeasties to do some "cleanup". On bottling day, it tasted like warm flat beer to me, so how was I to know?

My second batch, I promised myself, "not before 3 weeks". I took a hydrometer reading at 2 weeks, and it was pretty much dead-on my expected FG, and although it did possibly drop another point over the next 7 days (I'm not 100% sure the temp was consistent between readings), I'm sure I could have bottled at that point with no bottle bombs or anything. And it tasted just like warm flat beer to me. But I had promised myself I would wait, and wait I did.

I bottled it Sunday. Like I say, it had maybe dropped one more point, but if there was any further attenuation it was negligible. If I had taken a reading after 3 days I'm pretty sure it would have been the same. However, it tasted like really good warm flat beer this time. The final verdict won't be in for another 3 weeks or so, but the difference in taste from 14 days to 21 days was both noticeable and worth it.

And here's the bottom line: As a new brewer unaccustomed to tasting un-carbonated beer, I couldn't tell that it wasn't done at 14 days. I waited solely because I promised myself I would wait, not because of "common sense" or anything. And it paid off.

Once I get a few more brews under my belt, perhaps I'll be able to tell if a beer is truly "done" by tasting it. But until then, I'm inclined to set not-before dates. And I think that's the right call.
 
onipar said:
Huh? Oh damn. I've got to stop taking random advice. I was told the opposite of this: that once fermentation subsides, keeping the wort in cooler temps would help with sedimentation and clearing the beer. I literally *just* moved my wort back down to the garage because it's 80 degrees out today, and I was worried the upper rooms would become too hot.

Thanks for the info.
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No worries, y'all are likely talking about two different things. gr8shandini is likely referring to a diacetyl rest, which is done on the tail end of ferementation. The idea is to let temperatures rise in order to promote the removal of diacetyl flavors in your beer because your yeast will remove diacetyl more quickly at higher temperatures. Here is a good link for information on that:

http://***********/stories/article/indices/18-brewing-science/550-diacetyl-homebrew-science

You are most likely talking about cold conditioning. Yeast and proteins are encourage to settle out of your beer in colder temperatures, which should help both with clearing the beer and giving it a smoother flavor because, as Palmer explains, proteins often drag phenols down with them, reducing acidic tastes in your beer. Here is Palmer's discussion of that:

http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter8-3.html

So you're both right: let the temps rise or at least stay in the upper range of your yeast's optimal temperature for a couple of days towards the back end of fermentation in order to encourage the removal of diacetyl and ensure that the fermentation completes efficiently. Then, bring temperatures down for about a week in order to encourage clarity and smooth flavor.
 
The advise to let the temperature rise towards the end of fermentation is to give the yeast a boost of energy to finish cleaning up the beer. Many of the yeast will have fallen out of suspension or simply gone dormant, and raising the temperature will kick start them back to work.

onipar said:
Huh? Oh damn. I've got to stop taking random advice. I was told the opposite of this: that once fermentation subsides, keeping the wort in cooler temps would help with sedimentation and clearing the beer. I literally *just* moved my wort back down to the garage because it's 80 degrees out today, and I was worried the upper rooms would become too hot.

Thanks for the info.
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That advise you got is also true. Many refer this as 'cold-crashing' and it does help clear the beer and let the yeast drop out of suspension. You only want to cold crash once the yeast have finished converting sugar to alcohol, cleaning up the beer, and you are happy with the taste. So when your beer is ready to rack, you can cold crash for a few days. You should try to bring the temperature down to as low as freezing as possible, many people put their entire fermenter in a spare fridge. If you do not have a spare fridge, you can put the fermenter in a garbage can, large pail, or cooler, and add ice for a few days. Then you can either bottle, keg, or transfer to secondary/brite tank for additional clearing.
 
Right on Jsweet. Remember guys, this is the beginner forum and I'm on my second brew and havent even bottled my first batch yet. I have no clue what it's supposed to taste like and when it's ready to be bottled so I'm going off the advice I've read here (3 weeks in primary) as a guide to start. After a few more months and and I get a few more batches under my belt I have to rely on everybody's advice.
 
kanddr said:
Right on Jsweet. Remember guys, this is the beginner forum and I'm on my second brew and havent even bottled my first batch yet. I have no clue what it's supposed to taste like and when it's ready to be bottled so I'm going off the advice I've read here (3 weeks in primary) as a guide to start. After a few more months and and I get a few more batches under my belt I have to rely on everybody's advice.
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You have no clue what good beer tastes like? C'mon.

I'm not suggesting that you need to have a Grand Master's palate to tell when a beer is "ready." At first, your tasting may come down to a simple binary conclusion: "yum, that tastes good" or "yuck, that tastes bad." Maybe you taste it and don't know what to think - wait a couple of days and taste it again: is it better, worse or about the same?

For most average gravity ales, nothing really magical happens in the aging process, whether that's in the fermenter or in the bottle. Flavors will mellow and meld, but, for the most part, the beer will taste about the same for a long time. You'll definitely see what I mean if you taste a room temperature, uncarbonated sample right before transferring to the bottling bucket and then taste a fully carbed beer from the same batch a few weeks later. They taste the same! The only thing that's changed are temperature and carbonation, but those contribute more to the mouthfeel of the beer and less to the taste.

As with anything, you'll get better the more you do it. I fully recognize that this is a beginners' forum, but you're not a beginner at tasting things - you've been doing that your entire life!
 
I don't know what to say other than to repeat that for this pale ale I just bottled, it tasted "fine" to me at 2 weeks. Seems to me that, since there's no harm in letting it sit in the primary a little longer, it's worth it when you are just starting out to let it go longer than your own "common sense" seems to tell you it should. If you taste it again and there is no difference, no harm done. If you taste it again and there is a world of difference, then you've learned something.

Since patience is probably the #1 problem new brewers struggle with, it seems to me that setting a not-before date for your first few brews is a good idea. I know I'm glad I did -- if I hadn't, I'd have a pale ale bottle conditioning right now that wasn't as good as it could have been.

One more angle from which to contemplate this: Taste is (obviously) subjective and can be influenced by all sorts of other things going on in our minds. If it is your first or second beer and you are really eager to get it bottled and carbed so you can finally taste the finished product, you are going to be subconsciously influenced to give it a thumbs up. Maybe you'll rationalize, "Well, it's just flat, of course it doesn't taste delicious, when have I ever tasted a warm flat beer and said, 'Mmmm, yummy!'?" (That's what I was telling myself on day 14) Or maybe you'll lie to yourself, "Hmm, not as good as I would like, but this is my first batch so of course it's not perfect. This is probably as good as it's going to get."

YMMV, but I'm really glad I set a not-before date of 21 days in primary for my second batch.

Edit: I figured it was implied, but obviously a hard not-after date would be a bad idea, since you can hurt your beer (or even yourself, via bottle bombs!) by racking or bottling beer too soon. If observation and "common sense" tells you to wait longer than your target date, obviously you should. This is probably a moot point anyway, though, since how many of us were brewing our first batch and said, "Well geez, I really wish I didn't have to taste my first brew ever so soon, but the hydrometer says I need to bottle now, so I guess I'll just have to put up with it being ready to drink sooner than I wanted." Yeah, right... :D
 
jsweet said:
I don't know what to say other than to repeat that for this pale ale I just bottled, it tasted "fine" to me at 2 weeks. Seems to me that, since there's no harm in letting it sit in the primary a little longer, it's worth it when you are just starting out to let it go longer than your own "common sense" seems to tell you it should. If you taste it again and there is no difference, no harm done. If you taste it again and there is a world of difference, then you've learned something.

Since patience is probably the #1 problem new brewers struggle with, it seems to me that setting a not-before date for your first few brews is a good idea. I know I'm glad I did -- if I hadn't, I'd have a pale ale bottle conditioning right now that wasn't as good as it could have been.

One more angle from which to contemplate this: Taste is (obviously) subjective and can be influenced by all sorts of other things going on in our minds. If it is your first or second beer and you are really eager to get it bottled and carbed so you can finally taste the finished product, you are going to be subconsciously influenced to give it a thumbs up. Maybe you'll rationalize, "Well, it's just flat, of course it doesn't taste delicious, when have I ever tasted a warm flat beer and said, 'Mmmm, yummy!'?" (That's what I was telling myself on day 14) Or maybe you'll lie to yourself, "Hmm, not as good as I would like, but this is my first batch so of course it's not perfect. This is probably as good as it's going to get."

YMMV, but I'm really glad I set a not-before date of 21 days in primary for my second batch.

Edit: I figured it was implied, but obviously a hard not-after date would be a bad idea, since you can hurt your beer (or even yourself, via bottle bombs!) by racking or bottling beer too soon. If observation and "common sense" tells you to wait longer than your target date, obviously you should. This is probably a moot point anyway, though, since how many of us were brewing our first batch and said, "Well geez, I really wish I didn't have to taste my first brew ever so soon, but the hydrometer says I need to bottle now, so I guess I'll just have to put up with it being ready to drink sooner than I wanted." Yeah, right... :D
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Well, reasonable minds can differ, but I think your story is a great example of what I'm advocating! You tasted it and thought it was "fine," "not delicious." But beer is delicious, so you knew something was not right. You tried to second guess yourself, thinking that you didn't know what it should taste like, but you knew all along. After all, a week later you tasted it while it was still warm and flat and it was really good. Sounds like you're a much better judge of taste than you think! ;)

You waited an extra week because you promised yourself you would, but whether you judged it by taste or by time, it really didn't matter in your case. You said: "I'm going to wait at least 21 days." I would say "Wait until it tastes good." In your case, it tasted good at 21 days - everyone's happy. :mug:

But what if you had tasted it at 14 days and said "holy feces, that's the most amazing beer I have ever tasted at any temperature or carbonation level... and I need to change my underwear." Would you have dogmatically waited another week to bottle it, all the while ignoring the veritable army of heavenly host singing praise and playing harps to the beer you just created? I certainly hope not!

The point of tasting really is just to make sure you're not picking up something weird - like that buttery diacetyl taste or that astringent acetaldehyde taste, both of which are signs that the yeast still has more work to do. You may not be able to put your finger on it, but my guess is that 99% of new brewers out there would taste a beer that isn't done ferementing and at least be able to say "eh, something's not quite right about that one." So I say, wait a couple of days and taste it again, keep doing that until you're satisfied that it really is as good as it's going to get. The point, after all, is to make the best tasting beer possible, not a beer that is X number of days old. If you wait X number of days, that's what you get. If you keep tasting it, you'll learn and you'll more than likely be able to tell a lot more about whether your beer is ready to bottle than you think.

Sorry to harp on this - it's really not a huge deal. The take-away is this: trust your taste buds, beer tastes good, bottle good beer.
 
TTB-J said:
But what if you had tasted it at 14 days and said "holy feces, that's the most amazing beer I have ever tasted at any temperature or carbonation level... and I need to change my underwear." Would you have dogmatically waited another week to bottle it, all the while ignoring the veritable army of heavenly host singing praise and playing harps to the beer you just created? I certainly hope not!
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Sorry to disappoint you, but yes I probably would have still waited. :p Taste is just soooo subjective, it can depend so much on one's mood or expectations or whatever. And anyway, even if it was the best beer I'd ever tasted, still how do I know it wouldn't be even better in another week?

Okay, now we're meandering into potentially irresolvable philosophical issues, like the Problem of Induction, but still... With so many people saying their beer benefits from 3 weeks or more in the primary, I can't think of any way it wouldn't behoove me to try it at least once, no matter what I thought of the results I was getting otherwise, just to see.

Anyway, I'm planning on brewing a lemon wheat really soon now that I am hoping to get bottled ASAP since I'd like to have it as early into the summer as possible -- so I'll be relying on taste buds alone soon enough. I'm still glad I went by the calendar for this one... but you're right, reasonable people can disagree. :mug:
 
TTB-J, you just explained my experience to the letter. At 7 days in, my brother and I were under the assumption we'd be bottling (due to our incorrect notion that the recipe with the extract was accurate, but that's another story).

Anyway, we took our hydrometer sample and then tasted it. We looked at each other, and I don't know exactly what my brother was thinking, but I'm sure it was pretty close to my thoughts: "Well, *that's* disappointing." And in fact, so disappointed were we, that neither of us would say anything for a minute.

This is precisely where we started second guessing in *exactly* the manner you described. We said, "well, it's warm and flat, so of course it doesn't taste too good." And we said, "yeah, we have no idea what a fermenting beer should taste like, so maybe this is what it's supposed to be at this point."

You mentioned the "astringent" quality. Besides the beer tasting rather "flat" or "lacking flavor" the only other major quality I could put my finger on was after swallowing, my mouth felt really, *really* puckeringly dry.

This is the astringent quality you mention, right?

Anyway, we had enough common sense to read a little more and decided to leave it in the primary longer. It's now at 9 days. We'll taste and hydro test again at 14 days. Yes, it's on the lower scale of the time length everyone suggests, but I'd like to see if there's any difference at that point.

So, yeah, your points were pretty much spot on.
 
Well, my first brew had a pretty strong banana taste to it after 1 week so I'm leaving it in the secondary for a bit longer. Had I read earlier that I should keep it on the primary a bit longer then I would have.
So yes, I can agree with you that even though we newbies dont know exactly what to tast for we do know enough to know when something doesnt taste quite right. That is the reason I want to brew my second batch a bit cooler because I heard the banana taste could be attributed to a fermentation temperature which was slightly too high but can fade slightly with time.
 
I have similar question.
Beer (special bitter) is in primary for 10 days, on 7th day SG was 1.012 (OG- 1.044). Since room temperature is getting warmer these days, and soon will daily temp. increase above 68F I moved it in basement where is constantly 60F.

Yest is Safale S-04 and I assume that major fermentation is over but I am thinking to keep my next batches to ferment at 60F (whole 3 weeks) since I dont have any temp. controller yet.
How safe is to do that, I know that fermentation temp. is few degrees warmer but still I want to avoid bottle bombs due to possibility of yeast going dormant?
 
onipar said:
TTB-J, you just explained my experience to the letter.
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Haha - had the exact same experience with my friend with my first brew. Only problem was, we were drinking it from the bottle! That's what happens when you try to brew something on a time table (we had a party that we wanted to have the beer for), at least that's what happened to me! You're just sitting there, sipping it and thinking "if I paid money for this, I would not be a happy customer."

And yes, astringency can definitely have a puckering affect. Here is a great little rundown of different off-flavor types from Palmer's book:

http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter21-2.html
 
diS,
I recently had a bad experience using S-04 below the recommended temperature range. I pitched it to my 72 degree wort and put it in my 61 degree basement thinking that the heat from fermentation would keep it warm enough. After 48 hours, the yeast just gave up and flocculated at 1.020. Tried warming it, rousing it, but nothing woke it back up. I was going to re-pitch, but I needed my fermenter for another batch and just kegged it.

Besides, fruity esters and even a trace of diacetyl are desireable in a bitter, so from now on, I'm gonna keep my British ales at 65-68 whenever possible.
 
jsweet said:
Sorry to disappoint you, but yes I probably would have still waited. :p Taste is just soooo subjective, it can depend so much on one's mood or expectations or whatever. And anyway, even if it was the best beer I'd ever tasted, still how do I know it wouldn't be even better in another week?
Click to expand...

I like your style! A beer that is ordained from on high to be the greatest beer in all creation? Meh, I can do better than that. :D
 
TTB-J said:
Haha - had the exact same experience with my friend with my first brew. Only problem was, we were drinking it from the bottle! That's what happens when you try to brew something on a time table (we had a party that we wanted to have the beer for), at least that's what happened to me! You're just sitting there, sipping it and thinking "if I paid money for this, I would not be a happy customer."

And yes, astringency can definitely have a puckering affect. Here is a great little rundown of different off-flavor types from Palmer's book:

http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter21-2.html
Click to expand...

Thanks, I'll check that out.

Unfortunately, we *do* sort of have a time table, which is why we almost bottled last Sunday, and would really like to bottle no later than this coming Sunday. We're hoping to have the beer for Memorial weekend.

In order to have it for Memorial Day, we have to bottle after 2 weeks in primary, and let it condition in the bottle for 2 weeks.

Problem is, I *know* that's on the short side for both primary and bottle conditioning. I'd rather have a good beer late than a bad beer on time, so after we taste and hydro test again this weekend, if it's still off, I'm just going to let it go and forget about Memorial Day. :( Can always buy a case. :mug:
 
@gr8shandini
Thanks for reply. So it"s not good to keep S-04 on 60... I"ll have to make temp controller asap because in my house temp will soon be above 70F.
 

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