non decoction melanoidin developement

With October right around the corner, I'm thinking of a good German Marzen to brew, though I should have done it in march, but oh well.

I want to develop a good melanoidin profile but want to try to do it with out adding a lot of melanoidin-malts, or doing a decoction mash.

The Idea is to try to split off the first runnings and put a real long hard boil to it. I read bradsul Vienna Lagar post
Where he mentions this technique with Scottish ale, to take 4L of the first runnings and boil it down to 2l then add it back to the rest of the boil.

Any one have experience doing this, who can offer some advice, or point out some potential pitfalls for trying this as a method for melanoidin development?

The pitfall of the "Scotch Ale" technique might be an overly sweet beer, especially if any incedental carmelization occurs. There is a difference, although relation, between melanoidins and carmelization. In my opinion you want to avoid carmelization for any German style.

I think a vigorous 2 hour boil might be the best bet. Run off extra wort so that you end up at the right OG though, and try to mash low so it is quite fermentable. This should provide a drier beer with noticeable maltiness and melanoidins.

Water adjustments that balance your water towards more chlorides vs. sulfates can also accenuate this. But I wouldn't recommend that unless you are comfortable and familiar with water adjustments. It would be a minor difference anyway.

WorryWort said:

The pitfall of the "Scotch Ale" technique might be an overly sweet beer, especially if any incedental carmelization occurs. There is a difference, although relation, between melanoidins and carmelization. In my opinion you want to avoid carmelization for any German style.

...
Water adjustments that balance your water towards more chlorides vs. sulfates can also accenuate this. But I wouldn't recommend that unless you are comfortable and familiar with water adjustments. It would be a minor difference anyway.

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Yes this is a good point, Carmelization would be bad for a Marzen, so a longer boil would be a good alternative for sure.

I was considering adjusting my total alkalinity of the water to a bit less than 300 PPM, but I can take into account my Chloride to sulfide ratio into the equation as well (another good point thanks), but I have not begun truly formulating the recipe.

You said you wanna avoid "a lot" of melanoidin malts. The recent Basic Brewing Radio episode discussed a decoction experiment from the NHC. Eventhough not structured entirely the best way, my takeaway was that the experiement did show that even 4oz of melanoidin malt did add some type of decoction-like effects. Now, whether you consider 4oz "too much" is up to you...

WorryWort said:

The pitfall of the "Scotch Ale" technique might be an overly sweet beer, especially if any incedental carmelization occurs. There is a difference, although relation, between melanoidins and carmelization. In my opinion you want to avoid carmelization for any German style...

Click to expand...

I eventually got around to trying this out with the Vienna and my results totally agree. The carmelization really wrecks the flavour of the Vienna Lager. Which is not to say that it was a bad beer (it was actually quite good), but if you are after those nice clean vienna malt flavours it was very disappointing.

The time spent waiting for that first runnings boil to condense didn't end up saving all that much time anyway, I'd probably do a single decoction instead. I may try an extended boil next time though for comparison and see which one I personally like best.

If you are going to do all that boiling why don't you just take the plunge and do a decoction? I also agree with some of the previously posted thoughts that your boiling plan may not produce the same flavor and finish profile that you expect in an Oktoberfest.

Why not just boil your mash after saccharification? Melanoidins are produced at temperatures around boiling temp when a reducing sugar reacts with a free amine. The sugar is in the wort, and most of the amines are in your grains. This is why decoctions make malty flavors -- it has nothing to do with the (annoying) process of using boiling grains to raise your mash to the next temperature step.

Boiling first runnings without the grains may also create some melanoidins, but the effect will be greater in the presence of the grains.

So saccharify, boil (stirring constantly to prevent the grains scorching), then lauter as usual.