Belgian dark strong recipe check

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strat_thru_marshall

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Planning to brew this tomorrow, any recipe critiques would be appreciated!

OG - 1.101
Target FG - 1.022
ABV 10.47%
Color - 19 SRM
Bitterness - 34 IBUs

77% Pilsner Malt
8% Table Sugar
5% Amber malt
3% Caramunich
3% Aromatic
2% Biscuit
2% Special B

Magnum hops @ 60 mins to 34 IBUs

repitcing a HUGE slurry of WLP500 Trappist Ale from a Belgian Blond

Any thoughts?
 
Ditch the specialty malts, except the Special B. The best dark strongs I've made were just pale, special B, and D2 dark candi syrup.
 
Ditch the specialty malts, except the Special B. The best dark strongs I've made were just pale, special B, and D2 dark candi syrup.

What is it about the other specialty malts that you didnt like? I'm assuming from your post that you have made dark strongs with both complex grain bills and simple ones? What can I expect the difference to be?
 
Simple grain bills, when handled well, will create more perceived complexity in the finished product than a complicated grain bill would.

Complexity of grain bill crowds out complexity of individual ingredients. From your picture, I assume you're familiar with stringed music theory. Every note has a first harmonic, second harmonic, third, etc. You strike a note, and you hear the principal clearly, you can hear the octave, and you can faintly hear the perfect fifth. Start playing a chord, and you lose the complexity of the individual notes. Sometimes notes work together well, sometimes they don't. Sometimes a simple G major is better than a G7th augmented 11th.

If I'm going to build a beer, I go about it like building a chord. I have a clear idea of what I want it to taste like, and I have specific reasons for adding an ingredient, a clear idea of what it brings, and how it will interact with the other ingredients.

With the recipes you have written, you will be able to pick up the "principal" tastes of each ingredient, but the different principals competing for "flavor space" will crowd the subtler "harmonic" flavors of each ingredient.

Also, without the proper candi syrup, you won't get 'true-to-style' flavors.

Westvleteren Abt 12 uses only pils and pale malt, plus various types of sugar. St. Bernardus 12 has pils, one "black" malt for aging stability, plus light and dark sugars. Rochefort 10 uses pils and one caramel malt, and light and dark sugar. You would describe those as "complex" beers, no?

I have tried complex recipes and simple recipes, and, from my experience, the best results are pils/pale, dark candi syrup, some "character" sugar like turbinado, and a touch of special B.

Here is a link to the best beer I've ever made. Leave out the oak chips, and you've got a very good Belgian dark strong.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f74/belgian-barleywine-contest-tested-212251/
 
Second the opinion to ditch the specialties. I do a bit of caramunich with pils malt and d2 syrup. It's fantastic (and long gone), don't remember the yeast last time - maybe trap high grav? Oh yeah - used 4lbs of syrup in a 12G batch, and no way was it too much....
 
I saw go for it. This is almost the same recipe as my XMAS beer. I would use D2 in lieu of the sugar though. I disagree with those that say keep it simple. Belgians are very complex beers. They are made with more than 2 or 3 ingredients. Just look at the recipes in Brew Like A Monk...
 
While I am usually in favour of a simple grain bill, I think that with a BDSA can be done well with more specialty malts. I think with the OP's recipe, I would ditch the biscuit but other wise it looks good. I have brewed Jamil's BDSA twice, which uses alot of specialty malts, and it is fantastic. If you have time, listen to the Jamil show podcast about BDSAs he talks about the complexity of the grain bills for BDSAs and what Stan Heironymus thought about his recipe. Its a good listen.
 
While I am usually in favour of a simple grain bill, I think that with a BDSA can be done well with more specialty malts. I think with the OP's recipe, I would ditch the biscuit but other wise it looks good. I have brewed Jamil's BDSA twice, which uses alot of specialty malts, and it is fantastic. If you have time, listen to the Jamil show podcast about BDSAs he talks about the complexity of the grain bills for BDSAs and what Stan Heironymus thought about his recipe. Its a good listen.

I listened to that episode twice last week!!

I know that I could get good results by using Jamil's exact recipe, but I really love the challenge of creating someting on my own. That show was the primary guidance I was going by when writing the recipe.

After looking at it again and thinking about some of the comments you guys have given me, maybe it would be appropriate to drop the Amber malt and bump up the Special B to 5% and the Cane Sugar to 10%?

My thoughts are that the cane sugar is there to help achieve a nice dry finish, the Caramunich and Special B are there to provide dark caramel and raisin-y dark fruit type notes, the Aromatic and Biscuit are there to bolster the malt character. I chose Magnums for bittering to balance the sweetness only and contribute no/very little hop character and Trappist yeast because it should do some interesting things on it's own to bring the malt bill together.
 
I disagree with those that say keep it simple. Belgians are very complex beers. They are made with more than 2 or 3 ingredients. Just look at the recipes in Brew Like A Monk...


http://www.brewlikeamonk.com/?p=35
Since you are at this site you probably know I wrote a book about brewing Trappist and abbey style beers. And if you read the book you know that I came back from Belgium pounding my fist – on the desk, on corked bottles, on old brewing texts, just about anywhere – about the simplicity of Trappist recipes.

And the importance of sugar.

During my trips to many of those breweries, I keep finding its pils/pale-sugar(s) for many beers.
 
Planning to brew this tomorrow, any recipe critiques would be appreciated!

OG - 1.101
Target FG - 1.022
ABV 10.47%
Color - 19 SRM
Bitterness - 34 IBUs

77% Pilsner Malt
8% Table Sugar
5% Amber malt
3% Caramunich
3% Aromatic
2% Biscuit
2% Special B

Magnum hops @ 60 mins to 34 IBUs

repitcing a HUGE slurry of WLP500 Trappist Ale from a Belgian Blond

Any thoughts?



Why not use candi sugar instead of table sugar?

Putting the table sugar in the boil will invert it but it could also darken up the color of your final product. You can invert the sugar prior into candi syrup/sugar, add it at flame out, and keep the color lighter than if you boiled it.
 
Also forgot to add/ask,

What was the ABV of the batch you're repitching the yeast from? Belgians are usually higher which is why I am asking as you may be pitching some pretty exhausted and spent yeast.

Also with the fruity esters you may want in a Belgian may not arise if your yeast slurry is too large. The fruity esters come from the reproduction if I remember correctly and having an overly large pitch rate might inhibit these subtle flavors from developing.
 
Also forgot to add/ask,

What was the ABV of the batch you're repitching the yeast from? Belgians are usually higher which is why I am asking as you may be pitching some pretty exhausted and spent yeast.

Also with the fruity esters you may want in a Belgian may not arise if your yeast slurry is too large. The fruity esters come from the reproduction if I remember correctly and having an overly large pitch rate might inhibit these subtle flavors from developing.

The batch I'm repitching from is a 7% ABV blonde, 90% pilsner and 10% table sugar. I am going to follow proper pitching rates, not just dump the entire slurry or pitch onto the yeast cake.

It seems like there are lots of varying opinions about recipe formulation for this style. Thats pretty interesting and I am sure contributes to the unique-ness of all the different Belgian style brews that are out there.
 
The batch I'm repitching from is a 7% ABV blonde, 90% pilsner and 10% table sugar. I am going to follow proper pitching rates, not just dump the entire slurry or pitch onto the yeast cake.

It seems like there are lots of varying opinions about recipe formulation for this style. Thats pretty interesting and I am sure contributes to the unique-ness of all the different Belgian style brews that are out there.

Yeah that doesn't seem like too high of an abv to repitch. I'd add some yeast nutrient to the starter just to make sure it starts out healthy since it went above 5% abv in your last batch though.

I'm getting most of my questions/suggestions from what I've been reading and listening to on podcasts, not experience, yet, so take it as you will. Just trying to help you vet your recipe and apply what I've been learning :)
 
I added the cane and beet sugars on the 3rd day of fermentation. I read that this allows the yeast to work on the more complex sugars first then they can work on the late added simpler sugars. Apparently they get lazy and start working on the simple sugars first if both are present. Mine finished @ 1.015 from OG 1.070. Very nice beer.
 
Why not use candi sugar instead of table sugar? Putting the table sugar in the boil will invert it but it could also darken up the color of your final product. You can invert the sugar prior into candi syrup/sugar, add it at flame out, and keep the color lighter than if you boiled it.
Huh? Boiling does not invert sugar. A bit of acid is needed. You will not darken the sugar by boiling it in all that wort. You can always add the sugar at the end of the boil if that's your concern.
 
You will not darken the sugar by boiling it in all that wort.

Same recipe(s)<same amount & brand of grain -amount of sugar> brewed over the past few yrs proved to me that the timing of adding the sugar does indeed affect the color of the resulting wort.

sample pics:
Notice the difference in colors >




Last 20min along with the whirlflock gives the best results>
 
A higher gravity wort will almost always darken more than a lower gravity wort when boiling, all other things being equal, and sugar will increase that gravity just like malt, so adding sugar will most certainly darken the resulting wort more than not adding sugar. That fact is attibuted to combining sugars with amino acids and forming melanoidins (a process commonly called caramelization even though it is actually a Malliard reaction since it is heat and the amino acids in combination and not just the heat which also caramelizes some of the wort). Additionally, adding sugar pre-boil, during boil, and post-boil will all have that same reaction; darkening wort quite a bit, some, and basically none. Houblon's beer sort of makes that point very clear. There are some books that go into this subject; some oversimplify the subject, others go too in-depth, but the info is out there. Also, I am positive there are references online that will be just as good for purposes of homebrewing!

Additionally, worts brewed with 100% malt and no sugar will have the same relationships. If you brew a wort with, say, 10lbs of malt and one with 15lbs of malt, keeping the batch size, malt type, the boil time, etc equal, the wort with 15lbs of malt will be darker for the same reason as listed above.

On the other point, invert sugar, there are those that claim to taste the difference in finished beer between invert and "regular sucrose" and I won't go there. The process of boiling AND the acidic nature of wort does invert sugar. Some of those bonds will break. How much is up for debate until someone does a study on it. I will say that a lot, if not most Belgian breweries use plain sugar in their worts and not invert sugar if they use sugar in the recipe; I've seen this with my own eyes. And clear candi rocks are pure sugar, not invert sugar, fyi. Most, if not all, commercially available invert sugars are liquid.

Personally, I'm more concerned about flavor contributions than color. If you're looking to make a more interesting beer and it can fairly dark, like a Dark Strong or even a Porter or something unexpected, I would add the sugars early. If you were making a Golden Strong or Blonde, I'd probably add them later. Again, that's my personal opinion so you may think differently. :)
 
I see your points but I still believe that boiling sugar in wort will not breakdown the sugar (sucrose) into glucose and fructose (invert). The yeast will do it but it takes a little longer. When you invert on your stove top you are using a lot of sugar and very little water along with the acid. Just not enough acid in the wort to convert. That's why they make inverted sugar. Otherwise, why bother.
 
I see your points but I still believe that boiling sugar in wort will not breakdown the sugar (sucrose) into glucose and fructose (invert). The yeast will do it but it takes a little longer. When you invert on your stove top you are using a lot of sugar and very little water along with the acid. Just not enough acid in the wort to convert. That's why they make inverted sugar. Otherwise, why bother.

Wouldn't normal wort, usually at a Ph around 5, act as the acid to invert the sugar during the boil? That was the impression I was under and how I assumed you could get table sugar, a disaccharide, to be fully fermentable.
 
I see your points but I still believe that boiling sugar in wort will not breakdown the sugar (sucrose) into glucose and fructose (invert). The yeast will do it but it takes a little longer. When you invert on your stove top you are using a lot of sugar and very little water along with the acid. Just not enough acid in the wort to convert. That's why they make inverted sugar. Otherwise, why bother.

As I said, I have no idea how much will be inverted but some has no choice but to be. It is just chemistry at work. Acidic wort plus boiling temps will break down some of those bonds. It may be less than 1%, it may be 100%, but I have no idea and I really think someone should do some research to figure out how much. :off: I'd be interested to do it with the right equipment, time, and funding! I think that may be a great thesis project, actually. Inversion rate as plotted against acidity, time, wort gravity, etc. You could actually make it pretty in-depth if you wanted. But you could be more or less correct and the inversion may be basically approaching 0%. No idea.

As for your second point, why do they make invert sugar; I think it is simply a matter of consistency. If sugar inversion / conversion were 1% one batch and 5% the next and then 20% followed by 2%, you can easily see that a batch might take several hours or even a day less to ferment completely depending on how many bonds were broken and how many weren't. Large breweries survive based on knowing almost to the hour how long a ferment will take so they can have the next batch ready to put into the fermenter (an empty fermenter isn't making them any money and one taking too long to ferment is a lot of tied up capital for one thing). If that schedule isn't pretty much spot on or if it took a day longer to ferment, they might be thowing out an entire batch of wort due to a non-finished beer still being in the fermenter. Not that I think that happens since I'm sure they check the gravity but piece of mind and consistency are things most companies are willing to pay a little extra for.
 
... and how I assumed you could get table sugar, a disaccharide, to be fully fermentable.

Yeast can break those bonds, as well. :) Polysaccharides, not so well, though, at least for most normal brewing yeasts.
 
lots of great info in this thread, thanks everybody. My plan is to brew this batch with specialty malts as listed some night this week, then to do some further reading and research on Belgian styles (read brew like a monk for sure) and then brew another dark strong using candi sugar and pils to compare the flavor profiles. I'll post results when this is in my glass in a few months!
 
lots of great info in this thread, thanks everybody. My plan is to brew this batch with specialty malts as listed some night this week, then to do some further reading and research on Belgian styles (read brew like a monk for sure) and then brew another dark strong using candi sugar and pils to compare the flavor profiles. I'll post results when this is in my glass in a few months!

Good stuff. I would be VERY interested to hear your comparison. Please come back and do it!!! People always say they are gonna come back and compare and never do (myself being guilty many times). I'm very interested in this one. :ban:
 
Good stuff. I would be VERY interested to hear your comparison. Please come back and do it!!! People always say they are gonna come back and compare and never do (myself being guilty many times). I'm very interested in this one. :ban:

UPDATE:

This beer went from an OG of 1.097 to a FG of 1.012 in one month in primary!!! :eek::eek::eek::eek:

That puts it at about 11.5% ABV. The taste from the hydrometer sample is rich, malty, complex with some notes of dark plum and raisins. There was no alcohol burn. I cant wait to see how this turns out after a month of cold conditioning.
 
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