Need help, 6 (7) bad batches in a row (Long)

So here is the deal, I’ve had 6 (possible 7, one in the fermenter now) bad batches in a row. The first 2 were mini-mash kits from AHBS, the next two were simple extracts with steeping grains, next was an extract with steeping grains from More Beer, and the last was a partial mash recipe of my own. The biggest problem is I cannot identify the off flavor. I look at all of Palmer’s off flavors and can’t pin it down. Anyone local want to try it?
The first four would not get lower than 1.020 and I notice in batches 3 & 4 that the closet I was fermenting in was warm, about 75 degrees. So I figured the high temp was the problem and I stopped brewing at that point. Then I picked up an old freezer on Craig’s list and set it up as my fermenter cabinet. So batch 5 I maintained a temp of 68 degrees and still had the bad taste. I use “Easy Clean Cleaner/Sanitizer” from AHBS. Here is what they say about it:
“Easy Clean is a no rinse cleaner and sanitizer. It sanitizes on contact. It is an alternative to One Step at lower price. Usage: 1 tablespoon per 1 gallon warm water. 30 second contact time.”
So when five turned out bad, I eliminated the ferm temp as the problem and started focusing on the sanitizer. For batch 6 I soaked the fermenter (bucket) in bleach, then rinsed, then used the normal sanitizer. So when 6 was bad also, I decide for batch 7 to use the normal sanitizer and then rinse it with boiled water. 7 is currently in the fermenter at 10 days I checked the FG and it was down to 1.012 but the taste seemed to be bad again. I left it in the fermenter to crash cool to 32 degrees.
I ruled out the water because it’s the same water (tap from hose) that I have used for every batch and before these 6(7) I made very good beer. I typically primary in a bucket then secondary in a Better Bottle. The off taste started in the primary (I tasted it before transfer to secondary) so the last few batches I only used the primary and nothing touched the wort after cooling (it went right to the fermenter) so this rules out hoses and other equipment. I use a IC cooler that goes in with 15 minutes left in the boil so I rule that out also. This batch (7), if bad, is in a better bottle and never saw a bucket. For the next batch I will use a glass carboy to rule out my plastic stuff all together.
I brew in my garage near the open garage door and I do full boils.

Any ideas?

BTW, I’ve worked in the food safety/sanitation industry for many years so this is kind of embarrassing that I can’t figure this out……

Do you have a 6.5 gallon carboy to ferment in? I'm reaching a bit in suggesting this, as it sounds like you properly cleaned your fermentation bucket, but it seems to me that you've covered just about everything else.

Are you using an airlock or a blowoff tube?

Do you put water or liquor in your airlock?

If you use a blowoff tube, do you put the other end of it in a bucket of sanitized water?

Gotta pin down what the off flavor is, man, that's the only way to truly figure this sucker out. Any sort of description you can place on it?

There are so many variables to work out.

Sanitation (sounds ok)
Ferment temp (now ok)
Mash Temp
Sparge Temp
Steeping Temp
Chilling method
Aeration method
Primary ferment time (10 days sounds good)
Secondary time
Bottle priming method

You know, are you sure you're not just tasting green beer? What's the oldest batch you have that still tastes wrong? Have you tried one of those after refrigerating for about a week?

ohiobrewtus said:

Do you have a 6.5 gallon carboy to ferment in? I'm reaching a bit in suggesting this, as it sounds like you properly cleaned your fermentation bucket, but it seems to me that you've covered just about everything else.

Are you using an airlock or a blowoff tube?

Do you put water or liquor in your airlock?

If you use a blowoff tube, do you put the other end of it in a bucket of sanitized water?

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I have used my 6.5 gal buckets (I have two) and now my 6 gal Better Bottle.

I have used airlock on most, but twice I used a blowoff tube with the other end in sanitizer.

I use my sanitizer in the airlock.

Ó Flannagáin said:

Gotta pin down what the off flavor is, man, that's the only way to truly figure this sucker out. Any sort of description you can place on it?

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Ya, that is the most frustrating part. My notes for one of my early batches first describes it as extremely bitter or astringent. Because of this I thought maybe my thermometer was off (steeping at to high of a temp), I bought a new one and compared all my thermometers together and they were all within 1 degree… One time when I was trying a batch I had some Bridgeport ESB and Boddingtons pub ale and I thought I could taste the same taste in them but it was way stronger in mine. I’ll taste it again and try to better describe it.

Bobby_M said:

There are so many variables to work out.

Sanitation (sounds ok)
Ferment temp (now ok)
Mash Temp
Sparge Temp
Steeping Temp
Chilling method
Aeration method
Primary ferment time (10 days sounds good)
Secondary time
Bottle priming method

You know, are you sure you're not just tasting green beer? What's the oldest batch you have that still tastes wrong? Have you tried one of those after refrigerating for about a week?

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I believe sanitation is good. Fermenation temp is good. On the partial mashes my mash temp was 150. On the sparge recipes my sparge was 155-160 (depending on recipe). As stated above, I made sure my thermometers were correct. Chilling method I used an IC. Primary ferm time varied based on recipe but ranged from 10 days to 3 weeks. The batches that I used secondary the time varied from 1 week to 3 weeks. These were all keg except for the last batch, I bottle a 12er using the tabs and kegged the rest.
I'v tasted every batch and none of my 8 or so prior batches had this taste. Green beer might no taste great, but it's usually not bad enough to make you want to spit it out. I have keep some as long as 2 months and still no better. And, each batch was a different beer type, but they all had the same flavor, expect the Hefe which had the off flavor along with a little banana.

What kind of water are you using? City tap water? if so, chlorine may be the culprit. If well water, it could also be causing problems. if you have not tried bottled water...do that. It could very well be your culprit. Even if your beer was fine before these last batches, the water may have changed since then.....

JnJ said:

Ya, that is the most frustrating part. My notes for one of my early batches first describes it as extremely bitter or astringent. Because of this I thought maybe my thermometer was off (steeping at to high of a temp), I bought a new one and compared all my thermometers together and they were all within 1 degree… One time when I was trying a batch I had some Bridgeport ESB and Boddingtons pub ale and I thought I could taste the same taste in them but it was way stronger in mine. I’ll taste it again and try to better describe it.

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http://www.howtobrew.com



Astringent
Astringency differs from bitterness by having a puckering quality, like sucking on a tea bag. It is dry, kind of powdery and is often the result of steeping grains too long or when the pH of the mash exceeds the range of 5.2 - 5.6. Oversparging the mash or using water that is too hot are common causes for exceeding the mash pH range. It can also be caused by over-hopping during either the bittering or finishing stages. Bacterial infections can also cause astringency, i.e. vinegar tones from aceto bacteria.

The brown scum that forms during fermentation and clings to the side of the fermentor is intensely bitter and if it is stirred back into the beer it will cause very astringent tastes. The scum should be removed from the beer, either by letting it cling undisturbed to the sides of an oversize fermentor, or by skimming it off the krausen, or blowing off the krausen itself from a 5 gallon carboy. I have never had any problems by simply letting it cling to the sides of the fermentor.

I feel your pain, man....most of my early batches were bad, and I still have that fluke batch every now and then. My 2 cents:

1. Switch sanitizers. Go with Star-San, it is tried and trued; you will be able to eliminate this variable for sure if you mix Star-San properly.

2. How are you measuring fermenting temps? You want to know the temp of the wort itself, NOT the ambient air temp in the freezer. There can be up to a 10 degree difference during early primary fermentation. This will easily put you close to 80F, and definitely create all kinds of fusels/off flavors. Get a thermowell, or do what alot of us do: tape the probe to the fermenter itself. I noticed an immediate change in my beer after doing this.

Hope that helps!

Could be excessive hops utilization. If your efficiency is low then the amount of hops called for in your recipe could be too high. It would explain finding the taste in commercial brews. Are you hitting your target gravity?

It's been mentioned before, but take a close look at your water. Beer is mostly water and the one common denominator in all seven batches. Go to the store and pick up 7 gallons of spring water. Not distilled, but SPRING WATER check the ph to make sure you are not to high or to low(5.2-5.5 is optimum). Even if this batch turns out the same as the last 7 you will have then taken water out as a suspect. Also since now your in experimental mode trying to find a problem concider doing mini batches say of the 2 1/2 gal size till you narrow down the problem.

I dumped my first three all grain batches because of water. My water is extremely Alkaline which causes an astingency that was so harsh you couldn't drink the beer. I now use a ph adjuster, but my water still effects the taste of my beer. Not terrible mind you but still could be a bit better.

If the spring water works you have found the where the problem lies and can work from there. Depending on the water problem there are a few different options. Hope this helps you

what is your brew process like? Do you boil a concentrated wort and top off with water to get 5 gallons? If so, do you preboil your top off water. How have you been cleaning your plastic fermenters? Make sure you are not using a sponge with the rough side to clean with - it can make deep scratches in the plastic that are hard to clean. Also, are you mixing your sanitizers correctly? I think Palmer recommends when using bleach using 1 tablespoon per gallon of water and even that requires a 20 min. soak - for a sanitizer that is. I went through about 3 infected batches in a row and I ended up throwing away all plastic tubing - racking canes, etc. Take a look at the above and report back soldier.

kenb said:

What kind of water are you using? City tap water? if so, chlorine may be the culprit. If well water, it could also be causing problems. if you have not tried bottled water...do that. It could very well be your culprit. Even if your beer was fine before these last batches, the water may have changed since then.....

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It’s the same tap water I’ve used for every batch. That is why I didn’t consider it as the possible sourse. But, I guess the city water could change, so I will try bottled water with the next batch.

ScubaSteve said:

I feel your pain, man....most of my early batches were bad, and I still have that fluke batch every now and then. My 2 cents:
1. Switch sanitizers. Go with Star-San, it is tried and trued; you will be able to eliminate this variable for sure if you mix Star-San properly.
2. How are you measuring fermenting temps? You want to know the temp of the wort itself, NOT the ambient air temp in the freezer. There can be up to a 10 degree difference during early primary fermentation. This will easily put you close to 80F, and definitely create all kinds of fusels/off flavors. Get a thermowell, or do what alot of us do: tape the probe to the fermenter itself. I noticed an immediate change in my beer after doing this.
Hope that helps!

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This stuff is suppose to be the same as One-Step. So this next batch I will use glass and bottled water. If the problem still exist, then I will try Strar-San.
I have the stick on thermometer tape things and my probe in the freezer is in some water. I keep the freezer temp about 64 hoping the wort is around 69. I’ll try taping the probe to the fermenter next, But, my first 7 or 8 batches fermented in my closet at 72 – 73 degrees (Air Temp) with no problems.

Fingers said:

Could be excessive hops utilization. If your efficiency is low then the amount of hops called for in your recipe could be too high. It would explain finding the taste in commercial brews. Are you hitting your target gravity?

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My OG has always been with in .003 of target. On my two partial mash recipes I created in BS my efficiency was 75%.

Robar said:

It's been mentioned before, but take a close look at your water. Beer is mostly water and the one common denominator in all seven batches. Go to the store and pick up 7 gallons of spring water. Not distilled, but SPRING WATER check the ph to make sure you are not to high or to low(5.2-5.5 is optimum). Even if this batch turns out the same as the last 7 you will have then taken water out as a suspect. Also since now your in experimental mode trying to find a problem concider doing mini batches say of the 2 1/2 gal size till you narrow down the problem.

I dumped my first three all grain batches because of water. My water is extremely Alkaline which causes an astingency that was so harsh you couldn't drink the beer. I now use a ph adjuster, but my water still effects the taste of my beer. Not terrible mind you but still could be a bit better.
If the spring water works you have found the where the problem lies and can work from there. Depending on the water problem there are a few different options. Hope this helps you

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Ya, I will try bottled water. The 2.5 gal recipes is a great idea. I think I will cut the one I have now in half and do it twice. No problem with 2.5 gal in a 6 gal fermenter?

hopshead said:

what is your brew process like? Do you boil a concentrated wort and top off with water to get 5 gallons? If so, do you preboil your top off water. How have you been cleaning your plastic fermenters? Make sure you are not using a sponge with the rough side to clean with - it can make deep scratches in the plastic that are hard to clean. Also, are you mixing your sanitizers correctly? I think Palmer recommends when using bleach using 1 tablespoon per gallon of water and even that requires a 20 min. soak - for a sanitizer that is. I went through about 3 infected batches in a row and I ended up throwing away all plastic tubing - racking canes, etc. Take a look at the above and report back soldier.

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Did you read my first post?

JnJ said:

Ya, I will try bottled water. The 2.5 gal recipes is a great idea. I think I will cut the one I have now in half and do it twice. No problem with 2.5 gal in a 6 gal fermenter?

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If you can spare it go to your LHBS and pick up a three gallon carboy. I have two of them and they do come in handy. The reason I suggest it is because the extra 3.5 gal of headspace in the 6 gallon is quite a bit.

As a side Idea try getting a bucket from a bakery that had custard or some such in it these are a 3.5 - 4 gal food grade bucket. At my LHBS the rubber grommet for the air lock hole is only .28 cents. You can usually get the buckets cheap or even free. This will give you a inexpensive fermenter for your experimentation. Good Luck!

When you dump the bad batch whwer do you dump it? If outside which side of the house? If it's South that might be a problem because where I live we constantly have a South wind.

Bad batches went down toilet or sink...

I will not spend anymore $$ on fermenters (3 gal) til I figure this out. The 2.5 will have to go in normal carboys.

The plan, I have ingredients for one 5 gal batch of Irish red. Half I will use glass and bottled water, other half I’ll use glass and tap water. If both turn out, then it’s my plastic fermenters, if the one with bottle water turns out and the other doesn’t, then it’s my water. If neither turn out it may be my sanitizer or I may need to just quit.

Up date. I just kegged my batch that was in the fermenter. It seemed to have the same taste and smell. I decide to let my wife smell it to see if she could identify the smell. She hates beer. So she smells it and says apple cider.

Well Palmer says:
"Cidery
Cidery flavors can have several causes but are often the result of adding too much cane or corn sugar to a recipe. One component of a cidery flavor is acetaldehyde which has a green-apple character. It is a common fermentation byproduct and different yeasts will produce different levels of it depending on the recipe and temperature. Cidery flavors are encouraged by warmer than normal temperatures and can be decreased by lagering.

If it is caused by aceto bacteria, then there is nothing to be done about it. Keep the fruit flies away from the fermentor next time."

I controlled the temps better in this batch than any other so I'm thinking aceto bacteria has ruined my plastic equipment. I guess my next test using glass will tell me if I'm (or my wife) is correct.

Are your plastic fermenters scratched? If so, you might have bacteria living in the scrapes and sanitizers may not be reaching them if the cuts are deep enough.

Are you over carbonating the beers in the keg? I kegged my first ever batch and I think I did, because it has a slight acidic taste that it didn't have going into the keg. Kinda like I mixed some seltzer water in the beer.

max4677 said:

Are your plastic fermenters scratched? If so, you might have bacteria living in the scrapes and sanitizers may not be reaching them if the cuts are deep enough.

Are you over carbonating the beers in the keg? I kegged my first ever batch and I think I did, because it has a slight acidic taste that it didn't have going into the keg. Kinda like I mixed some seltzer water in the beer.

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No visable scratches. Carbing does not affect the taste of beer, just the mouth feel. If you over carb it will come out foamy. Besides, I bottle a 12er and they have the same taste.

I actually had one bad batch, and would have had more bad batches if I had not caught the first one during transfer to secondary. I had picked up an infection from the strainer I used to strain the hops and break out of the beer, despite letting the strainer sit in bleach water for 5 to 10 minutes prior to being used. I read somewhere that the construction of these mesh strainers is done in such a way that it is possible for bacteria to hide in the mesh of the strainer even if the thing is sanitized. My solution was to buy an all metal one and throw it in the boil pot at the same time I throw in my wort chiller to kill all the nasties that could be on it.

New question, will a packet of Safeale 04 be to much to pitch in 2.5 gal? This is what I normally would pitch in a 5 gal batch.

JnJ said:

New question, will a packet of Safeale 04 be to much to pitch in 2.5 gal? This is what I normally would pitch in a 5 gal batch.

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No, it will be fine

I've had a slight harshness in a couple of my all grain batches, but it has no flavor associated with it. I have come to the conclusion that the alkalinity is way too high and the pH is over 9 for the local water. I've also noticed how higher alpha hops seem to have a harsh bitterness when young, probably due in part to the water qualities. I'm pretty sure that the carbonic acid from a freshly carbed keg does affect this harshness, and does impart a taste as well but dissipates with a week or two. I'm sorry to hear about your luck and I hope the experimentation goes well and you can identify the culprit . Best of luck to you.

left field brewer said:

I've had a slight harshness in a couple of my all grain batches, but it has no flavor associated with it. I have come to the conclusion that the alkalinity is way too high and the pH is over 9 for the local water. I've also noticed how higher alpha hops seem to have a harsh bitterness when young, probably due in part to the water qualities. I'm pretty sure that the carbonic acid from a freshly carbed keg does affect this harshness, and does impart a taste as well but dissipates with a week or two. I'm sorry to hear about your luck and I hope the experimentation goes well and you can identify the culprit . Best of luck to you.

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Wow that came from left field....... get it? hehehehe. Any way, thanks I hope I figure it out soon.

do you need a new syphon hose and racking cane?

uglygoat said:

do you need a new syphon hose and racking cane?

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Nope, I have never used a racking cane and I already bought new hoses.

Ok, below is the recipe I'll use for my test batches. Wish me luck.


BeerSmith Recipe Printout - www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Töpperwein Irish Red Ale 1.2 Test
Brewer: John
Asst Brewer:
Style: Irish Red Ale
TYPE: Partial Mash
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 2.50 gal
Boil Size: 3.14 gal
Estimated OG: 1.056 SG
Estimated Color: 15.2 SRM
Estimated IBU: 18.1 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
1 lbs 4.0 oz Amber Dry Extract (12.5 SRM) Dry Extract 26.71 %
3 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 64.10 %
4.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM) Grain 5.34 %
2.1 oz Caramunich Malt (56.0 SRM) Grain 2.78 %
0.8 oz Roasted Barley (300.0 SRM) Grain 1.07 %
0.50 oz Fuggles [4.50 %] (60 min) Hops 16.2 IBU
1.10 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
2.50 gal San Antonio Water Water
1 Pkgs SafAle English Ale (DCL Yeast #S-04) Yeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 3.43 lb
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
Step Time Name Description Step Tem

I noticed somethink that nobody else (I think) touched on. Perhaps I'm looking at this with a perspective nobody else sees, or perhaps I'm just too new to the hobby to have the same insight as others but...

jnj said:

The first four would not get lower than 1.020

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That sounds a lot to me like a stuck ferment.

jnj said:

I decide to let my wife smell it to see if she could identify the smell. She hates beer. So she smells it and says apple cider.

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Perhaps also a symptom of a stuck ferment?

Anyone else think it may be possible, that cloying sweetness may be the problem?

Kevin Dean said:

I noticed somethink that nobody else (I think) touched on. Perhaps I'm looking at this with a perspective nobody else sees, or perhaps I'm just too new to the hobby to have the same insight as others but...



That sounds a lot to me like a stuck ferment.



Perhaps also a symptom of a stuck ferment?

Anyone else think it may be possible, that cloying sweetness may be the problem?

Click to expand...

I don't think they were stuck because when I shook the fermenter to restart, they wouldn't. I believe this was more likely because of the high ferm temp. It didn't taste sweet like an under fermentered beer would.

The one my wife smelled fermented out to 1.013 which is what BS predicted it would. So the oder and smell that was there in the first four, was there in the last 2(3) that did ferment out properly.

Well today is the day. I decided to do the whole 5 gal batch. I am using a glass carboy that I have never used. I filled it with bleach and let it soak for 2 hours. Then I emptied it and scrubbed it and rinsed it. Then I baked it in the oven. I am using a new stopper that I boiled (note: Do not atempt to boil a 3 piece air lock, it will melt ). The air lock and funnel will be soaked in sanitizer as well as the carboy. If this batch turns bad, then it can only be my water or sanitizer.
Wish me luck, I'm going in.

Godspeed, grasshopper.

Good luck this morning! Be sure to wash your hands too!

Didn't see any reference to it. Do you rack to secondary and condition before bottling?

bentk said:

Didn't see any reference to it. Do you rack to secondary and condition before bottling?

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I never rack. My primary buckets have spigots and my better bottles are ported with spigots. Some of the bad batches were transfered to secondaries, but some were not. Some went from kettle to bucket never touching anything else.......
Todays brew went uneventfully and it has already started bubbling, though slowly. Fingers crossed.

Well, I think a very real potential source of contamination is the spigot. After you sanitize the primary, that spigot is just hanging out there. Maybe just this time try racking. It might fix your problem.

YooperBrew said:

Well, I think a very real potential source of contamination is the spigot. After you sanitize the primary, that spigot is just hanging out there. Maybe just this time try racking. It might fix your problem.

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This time I used a glass carboy, so I will have to rack.
But, I sanitized my spigots and the bad batches were bad in the primary before ever going though a spigot...

John I guess it's just you, me, and the chickens. I baked my carboy at 220 and did the whole thing outside. It's bubbling great but it has a real pungent smell kinda like hydrochloric acid. It's been so long since I have done a kolsh that came out good I don't know if this is the way it's supposed to smell or not. For some reason I get the feeling it's coming from outside.

On a brighter note I cleaned out a spot in the garage so my next brew will be in the garage.

I have forgot to mention, I'm out of beer! This is a state of emergency!

Well the batch is moving well, about 2 inches of foam on top and steady airlock activity. Not to excited so far because the others all started well and smelled fine until the fermentation slows, then the off oder starts. Fingers crossed.
If I continue to have problems I think I'll start doing 3gal AG batches, thats much cheaper than doing PM and I have all the equipment I need for a small batch size like this.