OFFICIAL Kate the Great Russian Imperial Stout Clone

My efficiency kinda sucked too. About 1.089 with a 75 minute boil. Next time I'll bump it up to a 90 minute boil.

bottlebomber said:

What kind of system do you have? I've found that you need to take a huge preboil off these huge grainbills and do up to a 120 minute boil to get what you need from them...

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Rectangular Igloo cooler mash tun with a homemade manifold, and I batch sparge. This was my biggest batch ever and definitely my worst efficiency ever. The mash tun had more than enough space, but, for some reason, the brewing gods weren't with me.

I also had horrible efficiency 51%, added some dme to bring me up to a SG of 1.096, going to rack to secondary tomorrow and get my first taste, very excited after all the rave reviews this recipe has gotten.

For those who had low efficiency, did you batch sparge? The more I read on HBT, the more I think that is the culprit here. I'm now thinking of doing this next time as a hybrid AG-extract batch. Do AG with only 10 lbs. of pale malt (and all those other malts), and then add 6 lbs. of pale LME to the boil.

The reason for low efficiency on big beers when we batch sparge is that we have more strike water, less sparge water (less rinsing). If we sparge more and boil longer I would bet we would get better efficiency.

Just mashed this one in. Gonna let it sit over night. Smells great already.

I second larger boils if you batch sparge. I did a barleywine that i added another couple gallons to my sparge water and I actually got around 9 points better efficiency than i normally do. Ended up with a 1.122 OG....

It's not really about batch sparging or fly sparging. It's about water volumes and solubility.

Think of it this way - You've got a pint glass of warm water (this represents your total water volume - mash+sparge). Take 2 tablespoons of brown sugar and dissolve it in that water. If you work at it, stir it, let it sit, stir some more, you can most or just about all of it in solution. That represents a smallish beer, say 4% abv. Now take another pint glass of warm water and dump a 1/2 cup of brown sugar in it and try to dissolve it.

You'll dissolve a lot more in that second glass just because of the greater volume of sugar, but you will leave far more undissolved brown sugar in the bottom of that pint glass. That's efficiency (or lack thereof). How would you get that extra sugar in solution? You'd add a whole bunch more hot water, that's how. You may or may not remember learning about solubility in elementary school, but at a given temperature, water will only accept a finite amount of dissolved solids. Since we can't really mash or sparge at higher temperatures, we've got a hard ceiling for SG at 170 degres. I'd guess it's somewhere around 1.085 judging by the first runnings coming off most beers.

Fly sparging can get you a couple extra points just by the way of dilution over time, but overall if you are making a BIG beer like a Barleywine or RIS, etc, you need to increase sparge water to give the sugar somewhere to go. This of course, results in a longer boil to get rid of all that excess water.

For the guys who tried this on nitro - would you recommend it or just sticking with CO2?

Also, what are people waiting on average to serve? I am trying to decide if I should let this rest for months, or dive into it (brewed mine on 11-13-2011 and just racked it off this weekend).

I didn't get my OG because I dropped my hydrometer, but I think I was super low on efficiency. I used math to figure 80% attenuation and therefore I think OG 1.090 and FG 1.020 (FG was actual, OG was estimated)

One thing I did not have was the dehusked carafa. So I added the some about of dark malt matching the SRM, but only put it into the mash after the first batch sparge. Hopefully that doesn't screw too much up.

From the orininal post:
"Put into conditioning for about 5 or 6 months and you'll have an amazing imperial stout."

I'd say this beer needs to sit.
I brewed around the same time as you did, and I have it in secondary, on Port soaked toasted oak cubes, and I don't plan to bottle it for a couple of months. Then a couple of months in the bottle.....

gingerdawg said:

From the orininal post:
"Put into conditioning for about 5 or 6 months and you'll have an amazing imperial stout."

I'd say this beer needs to sit.
I brewed around the same time as you did, and I have it in secondary, on Port soaked toasted oak cubes, and I don't plan to bottle it for a couple of months. Then a couple of months in the bottle.....

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When I took a sample to taste it did have strong pronounced flavors so i figured I was in for some down time. But was hoping for some anecdotal experience that told otherwise. Looks like this will be sitting for a while!

I didn't see the addition of oak cubes and porter on the original recipe. Was this specified later on in the thread? I read quite a bit, but not all of the thread, and must have missed it.

Are you guys using medium toast, or something else specific. I made 11G so I am thinking that I might try one keg with the oak and port.

dcp27 said:

I'm pretty sure this is at least partially aged in port barrels so you may want to add some port-soaked oak into the secondary. Weird that he didn't mention any brown sugar, he mentioned it when talking about Kate in the past.

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I went with this, the 22nd post in the thread.
I didn't do anything with brown sugar.

vacax said:

From what I understand, the normal version of KTG is aged on port soaked oak spirals.

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And this, post #31

Cool thanks. Luckily I have some medium toast oak spirals left over and some port as as well. Looks like I will have to get them into my cornies where this brew is aging.

Thanks!

I let my oak cubes soak for the entire 3 weeks KTG was in primary. Then I racked onto them in secondary.

Brewing a batch of this as we speak! Preboil S.G.: 1.093. Oh yeah.

Damn... Kicking myself for not getting a bottle of this when I swung through Portsmouth. Thoughts on using 1728 Scottish ale yeast on this? I was going to brew up the BC Porter using that yeast and put this on the cake... I used it for the BBP porter so I'm thinking it'll probably be okay.

Also, any detailed tasting notes for this clone? or is everyone still aging?

gingerdawg said:

I let my oak cubes soak for the entire 3 weeks KTG was in primary. Then I racked onto them in secondary.

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you olny racked the cubes and none of the port wine they were soaking in right?

Looks like I am going with a combo of medium, medium plus and heavy toast because that is what I had lying around. Looks like now I need to grab a little more too, because I only have enough spirals for 8 gallons.

I'm at 8 months with my KTG clone and it keeps getting better and better. I transferred it out of the primary to a corny keg after about 2 weeks, added the port soaked(1 month) oak chips and left them for a good 6-8 weeks. Then cold crashed and bottled with a counter pressure bottle filler, and have been cellaring since. It tastes very similar to the real stuff. I used all the exact malts, except I used Weyermann Pale Ale malt as a base, used all the suggested hops and pitched a healthy third generation Cal ale slurry. This is a dead nuts recipe, just perform the proper process and feed it a very healthy, big yeast pitch and it will come out good. I have a good number of bottles aging quietly next to an authentic 2007 KTG, this beer is designed to be aged and is so worth it!

CidahMastah said:

you olny racked the cubes and none of the port wine they were soaking in right?

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Erm, no, the juice went in too.

So, I just finished sending my KTG clone to the fermentor with about 7L worth of starter. O.G. 1.105. In case anyone is considering brewing a Russian Imperial Stout, let me offer you a piece of advice. BREW THIS ONE.

Obviously I won't know for sure until I crack the first bottle, but the hopped wort was so rich and spicy I already know this will be one helluva brew. In case anyone is interested in my numbers:

18 lbs 2-row
12 oz Wheat
12 oz Special B
12 oz Flaked Barley
10 oz Aromatic Malt
8 oz Roasted Barley
8 oz Crystal 60L
4 oz Black Patent
4 oz Dark Crystal 120L
4 oz Chocolate Malt

I didn't have access to Carafa 3 Special DH, and since it only adds colour (as far as I can tell), I just left it out. The colour is dark enough (for my money) without it. Preboil O.G 1.083.

Hops:
75 mins: 1.9 oz Magnum (10% AA), 0.75 oz Perle (9.2%), 0.75 oz Goldings (5.9 %)
15 mins: 0.25 oz Centennial (10.8% AA)
0 mins: 0.5 oz Goldings (5.9%), 0.5 oz Willamette (5.2%), 0.4 oz Palisade (7.5%)

Thanks so much for posting this recipe!

gingerdawg said:

Erm, no, the juice went in too.

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Haha - I think I will toss in the spirals and set the port aside and add it in to taste so they both get the same amount.

I'm planning on doing this this weekend perhaps. I'm a little worried about efficiency, and I don't have DME, nor am I going to order any. If I use table sugar or brown sugar, how do I decide how much to add to boost my OG?

elproducto said:

I'm planning on doing this this weekend perhaps. I'm a little worried about efficiency, and I don't have DME, nor am I going to order any. If I use table sugar or brown sugar, how do I decide how much to add to boost my OG?

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If you have beersmith you can take a reading when you are adding to fermenter, and then use beersmith to approximate how much you fell short.

i.e. put in 5g batch and add 2 row until you get the same value as your actual brew. Then add sugar until you get to your intended gravity. That should be close enough.

Good idea.. thanks!

acuenca said:

Damn... Kicking myself for not getting a bottle of this when I swung through Portsmouth. Thoughts on using 1728 Scottish ale yeast on this? I was going to brew up the BC Porter using that yeast and put this on the cake... I used it for the BBP porter so I'm thinking it'll probably be okay.

Also, any detailed tasting notes for this clone? or is everyone still aging?

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Don't kick yourself too hard...you wouldn't have found any. This beer is released in March at the brewery, and then bottles ( by scratch ticket lottery ) about a month later. After that you need to know someone who has one, attend a special event at the brewery, or go on ebay.

Just shy of 2 weeks on my ferment so I'm taking a reading tonight. I have oak spirals that have been soaking in port for about 4 weeks. They are going into the keg for 5-6 weeks. Do those of you who keg carbonate fully while on the oak spirals/cubes or just enough to seal the keg? I'm thinking of just sealing the keg then carbonating it after I remove the spirals. What do you think?

elproducto said:

Good idea.. thanks!

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er... I never have done that before... honestly!

That is actually really helpful with home fruit wines too, if you just want to guess about how much sugar to add based on read sugar from the natural fruit to up to your desired value.

elproducto said:

I'm planning on doing this this weekend perhaps. I'm a little worried about efficiency, and I don't have DME, nor am I going to order any. If I use table sugar or brown sugar, how do I decide how much to add to boost my OG?

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For what it's worth, I'd strongly recommend against doing this, especially if you're adding more than a pound or two of sugar. Large sugar additions would (in my opinion) destroy this beer, both in mouthfeel and taste. It'll come out thin and with a large alcohol burn to it. I'd rather have it severely under gravity than ruin the end product entirely.

stevo155 said:

They are going into the keg for 5-6 weeks. Do those of you who keg carbonate fully while on the oak spirals/cubes or just enough to seal the keg? I'm thinking of just sealing the keg then carbonating it after I remove the spirals. What do you think?

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I definitely wouldn't carb on the oak; you want to be able to remove it once the flavor hits the profile you're after. I let mine sit on 1.5oz of cubes for ~1-2 months, then racked it into another keg for conditioning. I only hit it with enough CO2 to flush and seal; I'll probably draw off a sample from time to time to see where the flavor's at, but I don't expect to put it on tap for a good couple more months from now.

stevo155 said:

Don't kick yourself too hard...you wouldn't have found any. This beer is released in March at the brewery, and then bottles ( by scratch ticket lottery ) about a month later. After that you need to know someone who has one, attend a special event at the brewery, or go on ebay.

Just shy of 2 weeks on my ferment so I'm taking a reading tonight. I have oak spirals that have been soaking in port for about 4 weeks. They are going into the keg for 5-6 weeks. Do those of you who keg carbonate fully while on the oak spirals/cubes or just enough to seal the keg? I'm thinking of just sealing the keg then carbonating it after I remove the spirals. What do you think?

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Just don't over carbonate this beer, its not very carbonated, think I put in like 7-8psi before bottling. This beer really should find its way into a bottle so it can be aged, just make a homemade counter pressure filler out of a cheap bottle filler, rubber bung and connect it to a cobra head tap.

BCastine said:

Just don't over carbonate this beer, its not very carbonated, think I put in like 7-8psi before bottling. This beer really should find its way into a bottle so it can be aged, just make a homemade counter pressure filler out of a cheap bottle filler, rubber bung and connect it to a cobra head tap.

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I actually have a beer gun for when I do bottle it. I am going to age it on the cubes in the keg for a few weeks then transfer to bottle and hide them in the basement. I'll do mostly 22 oz bottles and a few 12 oz bottle so I can test one once in a while.

Thanks for the psi suggestion.

So I added in the oak last night and man, the port I was soaking hte spirals in took on a lot of flavor just from overnight soaking. I had about 8-10oz of the port left over after I tossed in the spirals (8-10 oz would be divided into two kegs, so 4-5oz per keg). I think that I will be adding the port in, but haven't decided yet. I do think it would be a shame to lose all that flavor. Worst case I could drink the port as it is.

stevo155 - carbing it on the oak won't hurt anything. No different getting at the oak when it is carbonated than when it is flat IMO. I put mine in muslin sacks to ease grabbing them out down the road.

22's are the way to gob for a brew like this. I don't always bottle, but when I do, I use 22's

I wanted to chime in on this....I brewed mine in early June. Focusing on the aging, I added Bourbon Soaked Oak Cubes (Soaking for 3 weeks) into the beer. They have been on the oak since June 28th?

This beer has amazing complexity at this point. The oak cubes spiked around 2 months and have been slowly melting into the beer better and better.

Also this is currently in a keg. I started around 1.100 and finished (at 2 weeks with transfer) at 1.018. Currently I am at 1.010 and every couple days I still purge the keg a little.

Now I am left in a questionable situation. I plan to keg 2 gallons and serve when needed and bottle the rest. I know I do not have much gravity left, so should I add priming sugar? Or just let the beer naturally carb. Honestly, I would not mind if the beer was one the flatter side.

Any comments on pitching this recipe on a yeast cake of

YEAST STRAIN: 1028 | London Ale™

A rich, minerally profile that is bold and crisp with some fruitiness. Often used for higher gravity ales and when a high level of attenuation is desired.

Origin:
Flocculation: Medium-Low
Attenuation: 73-77%
Temperature Range: 60-72F, 15-22C
Alcohol Tolerance: 11%ABV


VS the recommended :

YEAST STRAIN: 1056 | American Ale™

Very clean, crisp flavor characteristics with low fruitiness and mild ester production. A very versatile yeast for styles that desire dominant malt and hop character. This strain makes a wonderful “House” strain. Mild citrus notes develop with cooler 60-66°F (15-19ºC) fermentations. Normally requires filtration for bright beers.

Origin:
Flocculation: Medium-Low
Attenuation: 73-77%
Temperature Range: 60-72F, 15-22C
Alcohol Tolerance: 11% ABV

I've got a batch of black pearl going and was thinking about re-using the cake for KTG.

Thanks,
Steve

lewybrewing said:

I wanted to chime in on this....I brewed mine in early June. Focusing on the aging, I added Bourbon Soaked Oak Cubes (Soaking for 3 weeks) into the beer.

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So you left out the bourbon when you tossed in the cubes?

My question is, why soak for 3 weeks and then not toss in the soaking liquid. Basically you are oaking the bourbon / port liquid then tossing the liquid.

Also curious why people are soaking for 3 weeks. The wood is fully saturated within 24hours. You are only losing your oaking ability at that point.

I bet if you didn't soak for three weeks your oaking would have happened a lot sooner. When I have used the spirals in the past on wine I often pull them around 3-5 weeks max.

CidahMastah said:

So you left out the bourbon when you tossed in the cubes?

My question is, why soak for 3 weeks and then not toss in the soaking liquid. Basically you are oaking the bourbon / port liquid then tossing the liquid.

Also curious why people are soaking for 3 weeks. The wood is fully saturated within 24hours. You are only losing your oaking ability at that point.

I bet if you didn't soak for three weeks your oaking would have happened a lot sooner. When I have used the spirals in the past on wine I often pull them around 3-5 weeks max.

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No I tossed all of it in, but I did soak for 24 hours and dump, then add more bourbon. Why 3 weeks? Well I got the cubes when I got the recipe. Brewed it in the morning and soaked the cubes at night. Added them right around the 3 week mark when the beer was ready and in the keg for aging.

lewybrewing said:

No I tossed all of it in, but I did soak for 24 hours and dump, then add more bourbon. Why 3 weeks? Well I got the cubes when I got the recipe. Brewed it in the morning and soaked the cubes at night. Added them right around the 3 week mark when the beer was ready and in the keg for aging.

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Ok that makes more sense for the liquid (adding it in). I think I am going to toss it in tonight, but was leary because I didn't want to add too much port in there. But now that I think about it, that is such a small amount that I bet the original Kate the Great gets more porter in it. Every whiskey barrel I have ever gotten or seen that is fresh has whiskey still kicking around in it. I bet the same is true of those port barrels. (they might even add in a certain amount of port to taste, I bet they do.)

whats everyone been averaging for a FG?

I got 1.012 on my first batch, and still need to measure FG for this batch I started 3 weeks ago.

1Mainebrew said:

I got 1.012 on my first batch, and still need to measure FG for this batch I started 3 weeks ago.

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Wow, that dry? and how was the taste and body? I figured at 1.106 and 11% (from the website) ~1.022 give or take ... Im interested to hear how it is ....