Wikipedia on Mashing

I ran into the description of "mashing" on Wikipedia. There is one phrase that I think is critically wrong.

"and decoction mashing, in which a proportion of the grains are boiled and then returned to the mash, raising the temperature."

Its my understanding that boiling the grains is not good. It should read "decoction mashing, in which a proportion of the wort is removed from the mash, boiled and then returned to the mash, raising the temperature."

http://www.google.com/search?q=wiki+mash&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari#itp=open12

Right?

When you do a decoction you take the thick part of the mash(mostly grain with some water and boil it) this is done to break down the starches in non/under modified grains to get fermentable sugars. Due to modern modified malts this isn't really necessary any more but people still do it for authenticity.

Check this out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIQPQmELWPo&feature=player_detailpage#t=357s

You are completely right sir......dear GOD!!! Their use of "proportion" is absolutely obscene. Why people add to words to sound more intelligent (see NOTATED) is beyond me.

Bud is decocted, and I don't get any off flavors. i.e. Tannins.

Hmm wait a minute... come to think of it, I don't get much of ANY flavor. Great Scott you're onto something!!!!

So, it's correct that you would boil part of the mash?

I guess you learn something new every day.

On a homebrew set up with a false bottom mash tun, how would you go about pulling off a portion of the mash? Wouldn't you just end up with wort?

I'll admit I've never done a decoction, so this is new to me.

The mash is typically a mushy pile of grains. There might be a centimeter of water over a very thin mash, but it wouldn't be a problem getting a cup of wet grain.

I suggest doing a few brews before trying a decoction. It is a subtle difference that would be hard to notice if your processes aren't settled in yet.

You get a ladel/spoon/small sauce pan out and scoop out from the thickest part of the mash. This is how I've seen it done in videos.

well I was trying to just link the vid below but it won't let me. Jump to about 5:30 to see how they do it.

[ame]www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIQPQmELWPo&t=05m30s[/ame]

Watch Kaiser's videos on mashing, he uses a strainer to get mostly grain (for the "thick" part mentioned above) and then uses a pitcher to make sure there is enough wort to cover the grains before he begins the boil. Interesting videos. It's been discussed before, why you don't get tannins from decoctions, and I don't remember all of the reasons cited, but I assume pH has a huge impact on this.

berebrando said:

I ran into the description of "mashing" on Wikipedia. There is one phrase that I think is critically wrong.

"and decoction mashing, in which a proportion of the grains are boiled and then returned to the mash, raising the temperature."

Its my understanding that boiling the grains is not good. It should read "decoction mashing, in which a proportion of the wort is removed from the mash, boiled and then returned to the mash, raising the temperature."

http://www.google.com/search?q=wiki+mash&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari#itp=open12

Right?

Click to expand...

You're thinking "tannin extraction", right? Tannins get extracted only if the pH of the wort are too high and then only if the temperature is high too. Normally your wort is quite acidic so decocting and boiling the mash is no problem.

"Normally your wort is quite acidic so decocting and boiling the mash is no problem."

The main mash should be soured up before attempting to boil it. Like 5.3 pH. Sauer malz along with an acid rest, or lactic acid, are used to sour up the mash in a decoction. The liquid in the mash tun is mash water. Wort is the liquid extracted from the mash during the sparging process. Sparge is terminated when the wort goes to pH 6. If the pH of the sparge water is high, sometimes phosphoric is added. If anything, wort pH will rise during sparge. Wort "Normally" becomes more acidic in the fermenter, when the yeast does its thing.

VladOfTrub said:

"Normally your wort is quite acidic so decocting and boiling the mash is no problem."

The main mash should be soured up before attempting to boil it. Like 5.3 pH. Sauer malz along with an acid rest, or lactic acid, are used to sour up the mash in a decoction. The liquid in the mash tun is mash water. Wort is the liquid extracted from the mash during the sparging process. Sparge is terminated when the wort goes to pH 6. If the pH of the sparge water is high, sometimes phosphoric is added. If anything, wort pH will rise during sparge. Wort "Normally" becomes more acidic in the fermenter, when the yeast does its thing.

Click to expand...

Um, you don't necessarily need to to do anything to "sour up" the mash. If you pH is ithe correct mash range, as it should be whether you do a decoction or not, no additional adjustment to the pH is necessary. Wort pH will rise during a fly sparge, but typically will not rise during a batch sparge.

Denny said:

Um, you don't necessarily need to to do anything to "sour up" the mash. If you pH is ithe correct mash range, as it should be whether you do a decoction or not, no additional adjustment to the pH is necessary. Wort pH will rise during a fly sparge, but typically will not rise during a batch sparge.

Click to expand...

Right. You want the mash pH to be in an acceptable range (5.3-5.6 is optimum, but a little higher or lower is acceptable) regardless of whether you are decocting or not.

The pH in the decoction will not rise, as it's mostly grain which is more acidic. The only time you pull mostly wort (instead of mostly grain) is for the mash out decoction.

This is what I have discovered when doing the traditional tri-decoction process: My RO water is pH 6.9. I don't doctor it up with stabilizer or chemicals. Except, for the chemicals needed to match Pilsen water. I don't use black malt, nor, crystal. The recipe is simple. Weyerman light floor malt and sauer malz. I can change the color or the sweetness in the decoction kettle by adjusting the boil length. Starting with 9.5/10 gallons of cold water to dough in. The mash tun is fired to 105. It takes over 2 hours for the mash and water to drop to 5.3, using 2 pounds of sauer malz in a 23 pound grain bill at an acid rest temp of 100-105 degrees. I tried using RO without sauer malz and the pH wouldn't drop lower than 5.7 in 2 hours. Probably, with a longer acid rest it would drop. After the entire mash/water is in the pH ball park, I pull the 1st decoction, by weight, not volume. After mash out, sparging starts. I cease sparging when the pH begins to rise. With my 6.9 pH sparge water, the pH does go up after running off 16 gallons of wort. My lautertun has a slotted plate, so, I fly sparge. I guess if you go by the 1010/1012 rule you don't have to worry about pH. These, are just my observations using the grain and process I use....Maybe, with doing a modified decoction, and by using "naturally" acidic malts, like black and crystal, along with water treatment and batch sparging, things turn out differently. I'm not sure what you mean by. "If you pH is ithe correct mash range, as it should be whether you do a decoction or not, no additional adjustment to the pH is necessary." How do you get the correct mash pH? By treating the water? Treating the water, treats just the water. I let Mother Nature do her job, she's smarter than me. I let Her sour the mash and then, the soured mash will treat the mash water. It's a natural process. But, hey, to each, his own. Have a GREAT Holiday, and don't forget the drinking!!