A IIPA with ZERO HOPS BOILED IN THE KETTLE??!?! (A hopping technique experiment)

For good or ill, I have 15 gallons of the stuff gurgling out in the garage.

First wort hopped with 1.5 oz of summit pellets. 90 minute boil, zero hops in the kettle. Flameout. Recirculated my chilled wort back on top until the kettle reached 150*F, then dumped in 6 oz summit, 3 oz amarillo and 2 oz centennial. Let the lot steep for 30 minutes, then chilled the wort into the fermentors. I'll dry hop with 2 oz summit, 1 oz centennial and 1 oz amarillo per fermentor.

Stay tuned for results in due time.

Nothing quite like 15 gallons of experimentation, eh?

I like this experiment! But to be clear, first wort hopping still results in hops being boiled in the kettle

I'm curious what brewing software predicts for your IBUs? 1.5 ounces of FWH for 15 gallons doesn't sound like a lot, and a 15 gallon IIPA with "only" 11 ounces of flameout hops doesn't sound like it'll be overly hoppy. A 5 gallon regular (non-imperial) IPA that I brewed a while back got something like 2-3 ounces at flameout (or close to it), and that was with a FWH and bittering addition. This isn't much more than that, and there was no bittering addition, and it's a double IPA. I guess if I were doing the experiment, I might have even doubled the amount in that flameout addition. But that would lead to a very expensive batch

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I wanted to get a feel for the hop-steeping technique by intentionally using less hops than I would in my typical 10/5/flameout regimen. Less hops, but possibly more flavor/aromatics? Time will tell.

As for the first wort hops, I'm aware that they were "boiled" but FWHs are rarely described as a bittering addition in spite of their lengthy boil time. For the record: my measly 1.5 ounces were 16.1% AA summit hops -- hopefully a respectable charge at the beginning of a 90 minute boil. Time will tell!

so when are you planning to do the experiment where there are "ZERO HOPS BOILED IN THE KETTLE" ????

Fair enough! Valid points all around. Make sure you keep us updated.

GarageDweller said:

so when are you planning to do the experiment where there are "ZERO HOPS BOILED IN THE KETTLE" ????

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bigbeergeek said:

As for the first wort hops, I'm aware that they were "boiled" but FWHs are rarely described as a bittering addition in spite of their lengthy boil time.

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There we go, smartypants.

double-post

Subscribed as I am interested. 15 gallons is a big batch to do a test run on. Are you a nanobrewery or something?

bigbeergeek said:

I'm aware that they were "boiled" but FWHs are rarely described as a bittering addition in spite of their lengthy boil time.

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If you're not using any other kettle hops, then FWH is your only source of bittering.

FWH offers just as much IBUs (or more) as a traditional bitter of the same amount, and they both remain in the kettle throughout the boil. The perception of smoothness is changed, but the IBUs are not vastly dissimilar.

Now if you were to mash hop and discard them after the mash, or use hop extract... and never actually boil solid hop material in the kettle, well then you could make a case for boiling IBUs and claim that you did not use any kettle hops.

kpr121 said:

Are you a nanobrewery or something?

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Quote of the day! No, just a home enthusiast who needs to keep the pipeline a-flowing. 5 gallons of it will be gifted to a co-worker.

Subscribed. I'm planning my first hopburst, and may go with a full steep if this turns out well. Please keep us updated.

Sweet! More power to you man. I hope it turns out well! It would be somewhat of an expensive mistake.

You could use (hop) extract for bittering I guess.

In the end, it seems you need to isomerize some hops to get your bitterness.

What are you trying to accomplish?

Following

bobbrews said:

If you're not using any other kettle hops, then FWH is your only source of bittering.

FWH offers just as much IBUs (or more) as a traditional bitter of the same amount and they both remain in the kettle throughout the boil.

Now if you were to mash hop and discard them after the mash, or use hop extract... and never boil actual solid hop material in the kettle, well then you could make a case for boiling IBUs and claim that you did not use any kettle hops.

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All true, sir Bob. This brew is really about the steeping technique post-boiling, not the bitterness charge. Apologies to those who might feel mislead by the post title. Certainly a couple of "hop shots" could have satisfied the title's promise, but those suckers are expensive! Stay tuned if this novel hopping technique interests you.

You'll also get some perceived bitterness from whirlpool additions, even if not in measurable IBU. I think you'll like the result. I'll be curious to see if you find it lacking in kettle hop flavor. Thanks for posting.

When I plug 1.5 oz of 16% AA Summit pellets as a first wort hops in a 15 gallon batch & 90 minute boil into Beersmith, I come up w/ 52.4 IBUs.

I think many of us are finding the thread title more than a bit misleading - you have a fair amount of hops being boiled for quite some time (much more than 'zero'!)

You are doing an 'experiment' on first wort hopping, not on zero hops, in my opinion...

TyTanium said:

You'll also get some perceived bitterness from whirlpool additions, even if not in measurable IBU.

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Depends. If you're whirlpooling below 160 F, like I do, then the hop acids from the whirlpool are not isomerizing. If anything, a large amount of Citra & Amarillo in a 160 F or less whirlpool will help to create more of a perceived juicy sweetness from an abundance of fruity, citrusy hop oils.

jammin said:

What are you trying to accomplish?

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I'm trying to isolate the flavor/aroma effects of a sub-160*F-hot-steep, independent of late-kettle/flameout additions. I've added more and more hops to my flameout additions and I'm starting to wonder if I'm wasting hops.

I know that kettle additions are part of a world class IIPA. I want to learn about other, novel hopping techniques.

bigbeergeek said:

I'm trying to isolate the flavor/aroma effects of a sub-160*F-hot-steep, independent of late-kettle/flameout additions.

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Are you also trying to isolate the flavor compounds from the early addition hops? Because despite what some people may tell you, you will still get some character from the Summit that you used early on. It is not all boiled away. Something more neutral like Magnum, Warrior, or a very neutral form of HopShot would have been a better option if flavor isolation of the whirlpool hops was your goal. Think of how different the Pliny clone would be without those huge early & middle additions CTZ HopShot and Simcoe.

bobbrews said:

Depends. If you're whirlpooling below 160 F, like I do, then the hop acids from the whirlpool are not isomerizing. If anything, a large amount of Citra & Amarillo in a 160 F or less whirlpool will help to create more of a perceived juicy sweetness from an abundance of fruity, citrusy hop oils.

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Yeah, I wasn't talking isomerization. Was more thinking tannins and other hop compounds that later interact with the yeast. Again, perceived, not measurable.

Definitely agree that big juicy hops can easily throw the balance the other way.

bobbrews said:

Because despite what some people may tell you, you will still get some character from the Summit that you used early on. It is not all boiled away.

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Definitely agree with this.

remandsager said:

You are doing an 'experiment' on first wort hopping, not on zero hops, in my opinion...

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As stated, the focus of the "experiment" is to isolate the effect of whirlpool hops in a IIPA. The bittering charge is irrelevant. If you'll sleep better tonight, just imagine I added a couple of hop shots to the fermentor.

bobbrews said:

Are you also trying to isolate the flavor compounds from the early addition hops?

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I've used FWH a time or two, but in combination with bittering hops and tons of kettle hops, so I couldn't pick out the effect of FWHs in the beer. So a secondary factor I'm playing with here is the flavor derived from FWH, yes indeedy!

bigbeergeek said:

So a secondary factor I'm playing with here is the flavor derived from FWH, yes indeedy!

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I think this is an extremely important factor in this test brew! How much bitterness does FWH really impart!? Since you have no other isomerization going on (adding whirlpool hops at <160), you’ll be able to get some sense of whether the FWH is imparting a lot of bitterness.

kpr121 said:

...How much bitterness does FWH really impart!?...you’ll be able to get some sense of whether the FWH is imparting a lot of bitterness.

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FWIW, I've found it to be somewhat equivalent to a normal 60min bittering addition, or even slightly more.

did you remove the FWH before boiling?

loball said:

did you remove the FWH before boiling?

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No sir, loose pellets in the kettle.

Very interested in the results of this. I just did 10 gallons of black ipa that used like 10 oz of flameout hops. I added the hops in 3 stages. Once directly after flameout, another at like 150 degrees, and the last at around 120. I am wondering if the addition at 120 was in particular was too cold as the hop pellets were not even dissolving right away at that temperature. I left them in for about 10 minutes at each temperature stage I was trying my best to get the same effect of a large brewery gets with their whirlpool additions.

jtejedor said:

Very interested in the results of this. I just did 10 gallons of black ipa that used like 10 oz of flameout hops. I added the hops in 3 stages. Once directly after flameout, another at like 150 degrees, and the last at around 120. I am wondering if the addition at 120 was in particular was too cold as the hop pellets were not even dissolving right away at that temperature. I left them in for about 10 minutes at each temperature stage I was trying my best to get the same effect of a large brewery gets with their whirlpool additions.

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Neat experiment! Post your results here if you don't mind!

so with your fwhing and your hopbursting at the end, what is the estimated ibus you are expecting atm?

CityOChampBrew said:

so with your fwhing and your hopbursting at the end, what is the estimated ibus you are expecting atm?

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No idea. Around 60?

bigbeergeek said:

Neat experiment! Post your results here if you don't mind!

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Well initial samples had plenty of hop flavor and aroma but with a soft edge to it. Sample was still quite a few gravity points high and I imagine the roast flavors will mellow out over the next few weeks. This beer is probably not in the same vein as yours as I did have a few additions during the boil but not really all that much compared the massive whirlpool addition. You might have mentioned it before but what kind of water profile did you use with this batch? I tend not to go crazy with the sulfates like others do with their IPAs. I tend to favor a more rounded flavor with my beers.

Any updates on this batch?

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Update from OP: kegged it today. Dry hopped for 7 days with 2 oz summit, 1 oz amarillo and 1 oz centennial. Gravity sample tasted fantastic. Smoothly bitter and with a surprisingly high level of hop flavor considering there were zero late boil additions. Should be gassed up and representing itself properly in about 2 weeks. Preliminary thoughts are that the sub-isomerization steep is a kicka$$ way to economically preserve flavor and aroma. Stay tuned...

Unless I missed it, you didn't state the O.G. For a IIPA, it should be 1.070 to 1.090, with an ABV starting at 7.5-10%, with 60-120 IBUs

I calculate 26 IBUs. With that high of alcohol, IBUs need to be up there to balance, in addition to massive late additions and dry hopping.

If it's some other category, then fine, have fun with it. But this is not an IIPA nor is it no hops in the boil kettle.

Oh, and I should state that this technique would be good for a low alcohol beer with hoppy flavor and aroma.

A IIPA is supposed to taste like it has 60-120 IBUs. It could have less or more but so long as it tastes like one then it can be considered one. The abv is a little hard to fudge though.

RichBenn said:

Unless I missed it, you didn't state the O.G. For a IIPA, it should be 1.070 to 1.090, with an ABV starting at 7.5-10%, with 60-120 IBUs

I calculate 26 IBUs. With that high of alcohol, IBUs need to be up there to balance, in addition to massive late additions and dry hopping.

If it's some other category, then fine, have fun with it. But this is not an IIPA nor is it no hops in the boil kettle.

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Style nazi alert! Chill out brudda, this beer is huge with bitterness, hop flavor and aroma. I have no idea how you calculated 26 IBUs, the gravity sample tasted more like 70 ish IBUs to me -- it's hard to nail down this early with the dry hops as fresh as they are. OG was 1.075, FG was 1.010. I assure you, the beer is a IIPA and you need to have one and mellow out a bit with the condescending "have fun with it" silliness. The "kettle hops" semantics was dealt with many, many posts ago.