Advanced extract brewing

unionrdr said:

The difference is that I'm mashing,not steeping. And rather than add plain water,I sparge with that other 1.5 gallons to get up to boil volume with pure wort rather than water. And that 2 gallons of water is the right amount quart-wise for 5-6 pounds of grains,including base grains. But it could apply to steeping just as long as you understand the process & my intentions along those lines.

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Sorry, I meant to say I am doing mini mash's with extract I was using what the instructions refer to as steeping although I have been told it is actually more of a mash due to the type of grains hopefully this is not straying from the thread!

BxBrewer said:

Ballsy, if you sprage "rinse your spec grains". there shouldn't be a need to squeeze them. A little pressure is fine but not too hard. You don't want to squeeze and get tannins/astringent in there.

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I have read a lot of contradictory statements regarding squeezing grains. People who argue squeezing verses not squeezing grain say tannins come mainly from high pH and temperature of steep?? Anyone want to elaborate?

ballsy said:

I have read a lot of contradictory statements regarding squeezing grains. People who argue squeezing verses not squeezing grain say tannins come mainly from high pH and temperature of steep?? Anyone want to elaborate?

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There are a few threads on this already. As you mentioned, a lot of people say we just can't squeeze hard enough to release tannins, unless your using a vice or something. BIAB people squeeze all the time, and rather hard, and claim no ill effects at all. But I'm not about to vouch for them either, as ive never done it, haha. All my reading has come to it being a temp and PH issue though, with the squeezing thing being put down as one of those homebrew myths that got rather popular.

So for a recent partial boil extract brew I did, I decided to get slightly more complicated with my late extract addition. Instead of just halfing it or splitting it, i just used my handy brewing software to make sure my boil gravity was the same as if I was making a 2.75 gallon batch.

This was pretty easy with BrewTarget, all I did was just create a full-boil extract recipe, noted the preboil gravity, changed the equipment back to partial boil, and then changed the late extract addition I got the same preboil gravity.

You could easily do this estimation with the Ray Daniels gravity calculation method from Designing Great Beers.

Any thoughts on this method? I found it pretty fun, but I could not really comment on the difference between this or just simply halfing the extract or putting most in at the end.

Mordhaus said:

Another thing I took notice of when brewing my PTE clone kit from Austin Homebrew Supply is that they listed a final volume of 5.25 gallons. Then when I was using Mr. Malty to calculate my starter, their program defaults to 5.25 gallons.

Any thoughts on this? Should we be targeting a final volume of 5 or 5.25 gallons as rule of thumb or leave it up to recipe specifics?

I will say after tasting the PTE clone the other day while taking final gravity, I will definitely do some things differently from here on out.

1. Put that Stirstarter to use and make starters for every beer, big or not.

2. Like mentioned above, steep small and brew big. Fermcap S allowed me to control a 6 gallon starting boil and the tons of hop additions for the PTE.

3. Late extract addition. The Pliny called for 8lbs of LME. I added only 3lbs at the beginning of the boil and added the rest at 10 minutes before the end of the boil.

There's more, but I want to see this thread build in to an excellent tool through discussion and don't want to clutter up each post with too much information.

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Hey guys, I am new to the forums and a pretty new brewer.

In reference to the above comments, can someone help me understand the purpose of the late extract addition? Is it for color and body/taste or for fermentation?

Whoaexedge said:

Hey guys, I am new to the forums and a pretty new brewer.

In reference to the above comments, can someone help me understand the purpose of the late extract addition? Is it for color and body/taste or for fermentation?

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It reduces the darkening of the extracts. Sometimes, especially with partial boils heat causes what is called a Maillard reaction, which affects both color and flavor. In a few beers this may be desirable, but in most not. Even though I have gone to full boil, I have begun adding some of my extract late in the boil to get a somewhat lighter color. BJCP assigns a range of color acceptable for certain types of beer defined in units called SRMs. Some of my brews have been pushing the upper ends of the range. Not that I'm interested in competing, but it's nice to be within the definitions of a style.

Late extract addition has many benefits for extract. I use it when doing a partial boil of about 3.5 gallons.

When you are doing a partial boil, its all about adjusting to make sure that your partial pre-boil (starting at 3.5 gal, boiling to 2.5 and topping off) gravity is the same as if you were doing a full wort boil (starting at 7 gallons, boiling down to 5.5 or so). If you add in ALL the extract to your partial boil, you would be boiling a much higher gravity beer, which affects many thing such as hop utilization, color, potential scorching, malt profile, etc. If you wanted to make it real basic then you could just half the extract (half at start of boil, half close to the end).

I do think some people do late extract additions even when they do a full boil, I cannot speak to this directly. Big thing I have heard is that it prevents scorching and reduces the darkening of your extract in the kettle. But I am sure others could comment/critique what I am saying.

MKBoitnott said:

Late extract addition has many benefits for extract. I use it when doing a partial boil of about 3.5 gallons.

When you are doing a partial boil, its all about adjusting to make sure that your partial pre-boil (starting at 3.5 gal, boiling to 2.5 and topping off) gravity is the same as if you were doing a full wort boil (starting at 7 gallons, boiling down to 5.5 or so). If you add in ALL the extract to your partial boil, you would be boiling a much higher gravity beer, which affects many thing such as hop utilization, color, potential scorching, malt profile, etc. If you wanted to make it real basic then you could just half the extract (half at start of boil, half close to the end).

I do think some people do late extract additions even when they do a full boil, I cannot speak to this directly. Big thing I have heard is that it prevents scorching and reduces the darkening of your extract in the kettle. But I am sure others could comment/critique what I am saying.

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Thanks for the response.

I do a 3.5 wort boil and just add all the malts in the beginning. I made a double IPA that came out a bit darker than I expected or wanted. Can this be attributed to initial malt additions and boiling for the full 60 minutes?

The late add of the extract creates a lighter look and doesn't affect the flavor? I am still learning. I know what to do, but I am not always clear on the why.

As far as late extract additions, and using the 1 lb per 1 gal rule of thumb... Do you take into account the steeping/partial mash grains with the early extract, or only the LME/DME?

For example, I'm working on an American Pale Ale recipe, and I originally had the malt bill split into thirds: a partial mash of 3 lbs (1.5 lbs 2-row and 1.5 lbs specialty and crystal malts), and then I was going to do 3 lbs LME at 60, and then another 3 lbs at flameout. I'm doing a 3.5 gal partial boil, so was thinking 3 lbs LME for the 3.5 gal approximates that rule of thumb. But after thinking about it, wouldn't the wort from the mashed grains have the same effect as far as Maillard rxns and color darkening are concerned during the full boil (or do those only apply to Malt Extract for whatever reason?)? So I'm thinking instead of just adding 1 lb of LME at 60 (added to the 3 lbs already mashed, for 4 lbs extract total - still approximating the 1/1 rule for my 3.5 gal boil), and then adding the other 5 lbs at flameout...

What do y'all do?

Whoaexedge said:

Thanks for the response.

I do a 3.5 wort boil and just add all the malts in the beginning. I made a double IPA that came out a bit darker than I expected or wanted. Can this be attributed to initial malt additions and boiling for the full 60 minutes?

The late add of the extract creates a lighter look and doesn't affect the flavor? I am still learning. I know what to do, but I am not always clear on the why.

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Still learning. Me too man. Welcome to homebrewing!!! You a right about the late extract affecting flavor. How ever when you do a partial boil and add all the extract at first, you are already affecting flavor. Doing a late addition allows you to simulate a full wort boil with a small boil size.

If you put all the extract in at first then you are boiling at a much higher gravity then if you were boiling at full volume. It would absolutely make your beer lighter to do a late extract addition. Just make sure you read all the advice about how to do it on this post and others.

hi OP im a bit confused! when i think of extract brewing i think of cans of thick dark stuff (liquid malt?), is there forms of extract brewing that dont use this at all? for instance when you say in your first post "using an ultra light extract as your base and use the steeping grains for the color and flavor" what exactly do you mean by ultra light extract? would this be a very light flavored grain and hop extract so that the majority of the flavours come from the steeped grains and added hops? is this not partial grain brewing? please help!!

irishrover32 said:

hi OP im a bit confused! when i think of extract brewing i think of cans of thick dark stuff (liquid malt?), is there forms of extract brewing that dont use this at all? for instance when you say in your first post "using an ultra light extract as your base and use the steeping grains for the color and flavor" what exactly do you mean by ultra light extract? would this be a very light flavored grain and hop extract so that the majority of the flavours come from the steeped grains and added hops? is this not partial grain brewing? please help!!

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They make light or extra light extracts these days. For instance:
http://www.austinhomebrew.com/product_info.php?cPath=178_21_72_132&products_id=13367
Or
http://www.austinhomebrew.com/product_info.php?cPath=178_21_72_133&products_id=145

I just linked to AHS b/c that's where I live and shop, but there are others brands at other homebrew shops as well...

what exactly does light and extra light refer to, the flavour it imparts?

Different kinds of malt extracts are made of different combinations of malt and treated differently. They vary in terms of darkness and flavor. Many, myself included, generally prefer neutral malt extracts (such as light, extra light, and even golden light). Instead one can use specialty grains to affect the color, flavor, sweetness, mouthfeel, etc. using a process called steeping or partial mashing.

Many state (and I agree) that you get better flavor this way. A compelling advantage for me is that I only buy (for the most part) one kind of malt extract which means I go through it more quickly than I would had I bought a variety of extracts (e.g. Amber, dark, etc). That means the ingredients are fresher. In many cases, it makes it easier to buy in bulk which often yields better prices.

Other than light extracts, I keep small amounts of Munich, wheat, and Pilsen extracts to add to the light extract to adjust the character.

Hope that helps.

irishrover32 said:

what exactly does light and extra light refer to, the flavour it imparts?

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steveoc said:

Different kinds of malt extracts are made of different combinations of malt and treated differently. They vary in terms of darkness and flavor. Many, myself included, generally prefer neutral malt extracts (such as light, extra light, and even golden light). Instead one can use specialty grains to affect the color, flavor, sweetness, mouthfeel, etc. using a process called steeping or partial mashing.

Many state (and I agree) that you get better flavor this way. A compelling advantage for me is that I only buy (for the most part) one kind of malt extract which means I go through it more quickly than I would had I bought a variety of extracts (e.g. Amber, dark, etc). That means the ingredients are fresher. In many cases, it makes it easier to buy in bulk which often yields better prices.

Other than light extracts, I keep small amounts of Munich, wheat, and Pilsen extracts to add to the light extract to adjust the character.

Hope that helps.

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I use the lightest i can find for all the reasons Steve mentioned. But also consistency and better attenuation "fermentability " . I found in the past that the mixed "flavored" extracts i used were inconsistent. Is it the extract itself ? the process in how it was made ? The process after it left the plant ? All of the above ? Here is a link to better understand.

http://morebeer.com/category/morebeers-fresh-liquid-malt-extract.html

Awesome OP and thread.

I too have gone AG and settled back to PMs because I make fantastic beer in less time and with less trouble.

I DON'T use LME. I am all DME and grains.

To the confused irish rover..

The bags of extra light DME are an almost white powder.

Amber DME is amber in color.

Dark DME is dark brown.

Extra light DME presumeably contains ONLY base grain such as 2 row.

Amber and dark obviously have other ingredients, but it is anyone's guess what they are. Therefore pale DME can be used in place of base grains and otherwise you are using the ag recipe.

One thing I will add, since DME does not replicate base grain's contribution to the mash I add "some" sodium bicarbonate to any beer that is going to be darker than a blonde.

I started all-grain this year, but all of my most popular recipes are extract. Muntons extra light is the one i can get locally, so i use it amost exclusively. Cheesy demon makes a great point--I think a lot of extract brewers don't pay as close attention to water chemistry. Very important!

blakelyc said:

I started all-grain this year, but all of my most popular recipes are extract. Muntons extra light is the one i can get locally, so i use it amost exclusively. Cheesy demon makes a great point--I think a lot of extract brewers don't pay as close attention to water chemistry. Very important!

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I am convinced that PH is the CAUSE of extract "twang" claims.

I used to measure the sodium bicarbonate, but I have never had too much in a brew, so I eyeball it now with great results.

My latest stout with plenty of special B has no twang whatsoever and pleases the beer snobs.

wow iv learned so much from reading these post really appreciate the help have a pretty good basic understanding of it now

cheers!!

This is a good observation. My understanding is that bicarbonates have solid buffering capability, so that is in your favor when working with large amounts of dark malt. How are your sulfate levels? Is it your observation that it is acidic water profiles or alkaline profiles tend to cause the "twang"? I usually perceive it as being slightly metallic, so my guess would be that acidic profiles are the cause... Your experience with bicarbonate could also indicate that

cheezydemon3 said:

I am convinced that PH is the CAUSE of extract "twang" claims.

I used to measure the sodium bicarbonate, but I have never had too much in a brew, so I eyeball it now with great results.

My latest stout with plenty of special B has no twang whatsoever and pleases the beer snobs.

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Don't know if this has been brought up in this thread, but another item that must be discussed is the use of yeast nutrients. People sometimes complain that when they brew with extract, they get stuck fermentations, or that the beer attenuates poorly. I've noticed in the past that fermentation of my extract beers often take forever to start.

One reason for this is because during the process of turning freshly-made wort into malt extract, it loses a lot of the nutrients from mash. To combat this, you should use a yeast nutrient. I've been using them lately, and my fermentations take off like a rocket! They really make a huge difference.

Agreed on the yeast nutrient. I've used it in my last two starters and brews. It's too cheap not to use.

I have gotten into the practice of using yeast nutrients regularly. I also oxygenate at 1/8 LPM for about 1.5 minutes. I reused yeast for awhile, but I gave that up as my brews have 4-8 ounces of hops in general and typically have OG >1.070—less than optimal for reusing. Also, as my batches became more costly in terms of ingredients, I have been less willing to take chances.

I use dry yeast as it has a better cell count than liquid and is less fussy. I don't hesitate to throw in a few extra grams beyond the package using Mr Malty's yeast calculator. I also found an eBay seller that sells dry yeast in bundles of 5 for a good price and ships for free.

It's tough to say which one of these practices is most important, but I've been using these procedures regularly for the past few months. The batches have consistently been excellent. This isn't THE way, but it is my way. YMMV.

Agreed, I always use yeast nutrient in a starter with a wee bit of extract thrown in for good measure. My dried yeast are already up and munching when I pitch, so they take hold in the wort right away. The only brew I have had a problem with fermentation sticking, I hadn't used nutrient or a starter. So it's an easy decision for me.

Voodoogruv said:

Agreed, I always use yeast nutrient in a starter with a wee bit of extract thrown in for good measure. My dried yeast are already up and munching when I pitch, so they take hold in the wort right away. The only brew I have had a problem with fermentation sticking, I hadn't used nutrient or a starter. So it's an easy decision for me.

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I don't think what you are describing is a starter in the way other people mean it. A starter is where you take a package of yeast and make what amounts to a very small batch of beer without the hops to increase the cell count of the yeast before pitching. You probably shouldn't make a starter for dry yeast. It is time consuming and more expensive than just buying another packet of dry yeast. Dry yeast is packaged so they are ready to go. This thread explains it much better than I have.

logan3825 said:

I don't think what you are describing is a starter in the way other people mean it. A starter is where you take a package of yeast and make what amounts to a very small batch of beer without the hops to increase the cell count of the yeast before pitching. You probably shouldn't make a starter for dry yeast. It is time consuming and more expensive than just buying another packet of dry yeast. Dry yeast is packaged so they are ready to go. This thread explains it much better than I have.

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+ 1. Most packets of dry are 2-3 dollars vs liquid which are typically 6-7 +.

ballsy said:

+ 1. Most packets of dry are 2-3 dollars vs liquid which are typically 6-7 +.

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Another packet of dry yeast is less expensive than using DME to make a starter.

logan3825 said:

Another packet of dry yeast is less expensive than using DME to make a starter.

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How much DME are you using to make a starter? A pack of dry yeast is what, $3-$4? A pound of DME is $4ish.

Wait, If your using dry yeast, you just need to rehydrate it. If your using liquid, then you need a starter.

Dry yeast is processed in a way (I'll have to hunt for specific details) that it has the reserves it needs to get going. Dry yeast manufacturers discourage the use of starters. If you do make a starter with dry yeast, you should pay more attention to oxygenation and yeast nutrients (good practice anyway).

According to the Mr Malty calculator two 11.5 g packs of yeast provide enough for an OG Of 1.120. I usually brew ales with OG 1.075 and up. I generally pitch a pack of dry yeast along with a few extra grams depending on the yeast calculator recommendations.

When I work with a partial pack, I wash my hands, sanitize the scissors, and packet before opening. When done, I immediately fold up the packet with the left over yeast and store it in a ziplock bag, then throw it in a cool part of the refrigerator. Yeast manufacturers generally recommend a week maximum for storage of opened packets, but I've never had a problem with 2-3 weeks.

I have been running a small bakery on the side for well over a decade. I know that dry yeast manufacturer's recommendations are extremely conservative. That being said, beers yeast should be handled much more carefully than baking yeast.

KepowOb said:

How much DME are you using to make a starter? A pack of dry yeast is what, $3-$4? A pound of DME is $4ish.

Wait, If your using dry yeast, you just need to rehydrate it. If your using liquid, then you need a starter.

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My original response was to somebody talking about making a starter for dry yeast. Best case is that the money is a wash between making a starter and buying another packet of yeast. Add in the extra work, increased chance for contamination, and the fact that you may actually be reducing the viability of the yeast makes doing a starter with dry yeast is just bad practice.

I know some may frown on this, but I never make starters. Other than my weissbiers and the occasional Belgian, I use US-05 or Nottingham dry yeast. I just throw it in my fermenter with the yeast nutrient. I've never had a problem, and with the nutrient added it takes off really quick.

CrookedTail said:

I know some may frown on this, but I never make starters. Other than my weissbiers and the occasional Belgian, I use US-05 or Nottingham dry yeast. I just throw it in my fermenter with the yeast nutrient. I've never had a problem, and with the nutrient added it takes off really quick.

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Dry yeast don't require starters which is we documented throughout the forums....I have never used nutrients though...how truely necessary are they with regards to dry yeast? I only had one batch fail to attenuate which was 1.08 OG and makes me wonder if nutrients would have fixed this...

ballsy said:

Dry yeast don't require starters which is we documented throughout the forums....I have never used nutrients though...how truely necessary are they with regards to dry yeast? I only had one batch fail to attenuate which was 1.08 OG and makes me wonder if nutrients would have fixed this...

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id like an answer to this aswell, iv gone and bought some but now iv read articles where people are saying dont use it its only for wine and stuff? or to just add a very small bit, mine says add 1 teaspoon to a cup of water then add it to the wort. the one i bought says its for wine but also says its usable with any yeast will this be suitable?

ballsy said:

Dry yeast don't require starters which is we documented throughout the forums....I have never used nutrients though...how truely necessary are they with regards to dry yeast? I only had one batch fail to attenuate which was 1.08 OG and makes me wonder if nutrients would have fixed this...

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I read an interview of the brewmaster of Pacific Coast Brewery (a commercial extract brewpub) in a past BYO issue, and he highly recommended using yeast nutrients in extract beers. Apparently during the process of condensing wort into malt extract, it loses a lot of compounds that help promote a healthy fermentation. By adding yeast nutrients, you're adding those compounds back into your beer.

John Palmer mentions this in How To Brew as well:

http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter6-9-1.html

Chapter 6 - Yeast

6.9.1 Nutrients

Yeast cannot live on sugar alone. Yeast also need nitrogen, and amino and fatty acids to enable them to live and grow. The primary source for these building blocks is the free amino nitrogen (FAN) and lipids from the malted barley. Refined sugars like table sugar, corn sugar or candy sugar do not contain any of these nutrients. And, it is common for extracts (especially kit extracts targeted toward a particular style) to be thinned with refined sugars to lighten the color or reduce the cost of production. An all-malt beer has all the nutrition that the yeast will need for a good fermentation, but all-extract beers may not have sufficient FAN to promote adequate growth. Since malt extract is commonly used for yeast starters, it is always a good idea to add some yeast nutrients to ensure good yeast growth.

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In my own personal experience, I've noticed that my extract brews do not attenuate nearly as well as my mash brews. Since adding a little yeast nutrient to my extract beers, I've had much healthier fermentations.

Then it follows that a partial mash beer with the mash equaling 50% of the fermentables may not need these nutrients? I'd think the mash would replace them?

Would it be a waste to add the nutrients pre-boil or should it be added post boil to the wort in the primary as I assume?

Kdog22 said:

Would it be a waste to add the nutrients pre-boil or should it be added post boil to the wort in the primary as I assume?

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I was under impression it was added with roughly 5 min's left in the boil. Have never used it but ironically, ordered a packet with my next two batches.

I always like to use a few pounds of grain when I make make my extract brews. I get a couple lbs of 2 row and the rest of my steeping grain and do a mini mash, toss them in a muslin bag and drop into a pot of water brought up to strike temp, then wrap the pot in a couple towels and let it sit an hour. Then I will bring the rest of my water in my brew kettle up to 170. When the minimash is done I will dunk the muslin bag or bags into the brew kettle for 5 minutes or so then squeeze out the liquid and pour the steeped liquid from the first pot. It's worked really well for me so far.

Wow. Great thread! Just read the whole thing from start to finish. I'm pretty new to brewing. Been doing it just under 2 months now. I have 7 batches under my belt so far, all extract with specialty grains, although I'm about to try my hand at BIAB on my next batch. To say that I have been blown away by the quality of the beer I'm brewing would be an understatement. I will definitley make the jump to all-grain some day but extract brewing is perfect for me right now. 3 hour brew days from start to finish including cleanup and amazing beer as a result. It would take me all day to comment on all the great posts and comments in this thread so I'm not going to try. Just a thanks to everyone who has contributed thus far, my knowledge has grown significantly.

Adam

We're her to help each other of course. So there's no hurry to progress to the next level. Keep studying & do so when you feel you're ready. I do PB/PM BIAB,so even partial boils & partial mash work quite well. But it's still some 6 hours our so. but the end result is well worth it. Just don't be in a hurry or embarassed that you aren't AG & kegging like the folks many think are "the cool crowd". That's bullocks.