He said he would usually pitch 4 times the yeast and start fermenting in under an hour. Has anyone heard of doing this? Would this be a good idea or something to avoid?
My boss used to brew and told me this crazy idea
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dzlater
Well-Known Member
There are reasons for pitching the right amount of yeast.
Some folks say you can't over pitch in homebrewing.
Some folks would disagree with that.
How did his beer taste?
I personally think it's a waste of money.
Split a batch and over pitch in one, and see if you can tell the difference.
Some folks say you can't over pitch in homebrewing.
Some folks would disagree with that.
How did his beer taste?
I personally think it's a waste of money.
Split a batch and over pitch in one, and see if you can tell the difference.
Tombstone0
Well-Known Member
Here's a link to a basic brewing episode where they tested the effects pitching rate has on beer. They tested with the recommended amount of yeast, 1/4 that amount and 4 times that amount. The results weren't overwhelmingly conclusive but the recommended amount seemed to come out on top.
http://media.libsyn.com/media/basicbrewing/bbr11-12-09yeastpitch.mp3
I think the only way to truly answer this is through a true break down. Taste would obviously have to be taken into account but the tasting would have to be blind. I think through chemical analysis many of these theoretical facts can be proven or debunked. I would think there are certain compounds produced by stressed yeasts compared to properly prepared cultures.
I'm starting a food science BS program this semester. Maybe if I can get access to lab equipment this year I'll make a 1.070 beer split the batch and under pitch one and pitch one with triple the yeast I normally would. Then see what happens to the beer.
I'm starting a food science BS program this semester. Maybe if I can get access to lab equipment this year I'll make a 1.070 beer split the batch and under pitch one and pitch one with triple the yeast I normally would. Then see what happens to the beer.
Edcculus
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't condone pitching 4 smack packs or vials. That could get prohibitively expensive. Read up on making a starter and using the Pitching Rate Calculator to figure out how much starter to make.
If you are doing everything else right (proper aeration, proper ferm temp) slightly under pitching probably won't make a huge difference. Also, proper pitching rate might help hide under aeration or slightly warm ferm temps since you are starting out with the proper amount of healthy yeast. Off flavors come from stressed yeast, which can come from under pitching as well as other factors.
If your boss brewed a while ago, that was probably true. They didn't have access to all kinds of different liquid yeast. The yeast was also a lot lower quality. Pitching a few packs and secondaries became necessary to make good beer. Also, FWIW, the time it takes your beer to "start fermenting" isn't really an indication of how good the beer will be. If you are getting 48 hour plus lag times, think about making a starter or pitching more yeast.
If you are doing everything else right (proper aeration, proper ferm temp) slightly under pitching probably won't make a huge difference. Also, proper pitching rate might help hide under aeration or slightly warm ferm temps since you are starting out with the proper amount of healthy yeast. Off flavors come from stressed yeast, which can come from under pitching as well as other factors.
If your boss brewed a while ago, that was probably true. They didn't have access to all kinds of different liquid yeast. The yeast was also a lot lower quality. Pitching a few packs and secondaries became necessary to make good beer. Also, FWIW, the time it takes your beer to "start fermenting" isn't really an indication of how good the beer will be. If you are getting 48 hour plus lag times, think about making a starter or pitching more yeast.
OP
OP
Yeah, he hasn't brewed in a while. Thanks for the link and the thoughts, guys!
jgln
Well-Known Member
I would think the "start" of fermentation would be the same regardless of the amount. The amount may show quicker visible signs and get you fermented out faster, but the start time would be the same. Just answering to your exact statement. Now if he said it got him fermented out sooner I would buy that. Not sure for the taste though and like the others said for the expense of 4x the price I don't see much advantage, that and the taste but then again maybe 4x is good (????).
Got Trub?
Well-Known Member
If you pitch the appropriate amount of yeast they will first undergo a growth (replication) phase before starting to ferment. Overpitch and they will shorten or bypass growth and go straight into fermentation. Commercial brewers have access to more yeast than they know what to do with and they calculate how much to pitch so I will continue to use the pitch rate calculator http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html for my beers.
GT
jgln
Well-Known Member
I know they go through a growth stage (reproduction) but I thought that was in direct relationship to the yeast eating the sugars then growing in numbers thus speeding up the fermentation. You are trying to say they reproduce first then eat sugars? I don't believe so based on what I understand but I can always be wrong.
ChshreCat
Well-Known Member
I know they go through a growth stage (reproduction) but I thought that was in direct relationship to the yeast eating the sugars then growing in numbers thus speeding up the fermentation. You are trying to say they reproduce first then eat sugars? I don't believe so based on what I understand but I can always be wrong.
Yeast can live two ways. Aerobically and anaerobically. Aerobically, they consume oxygen and reproduce. This is the first phase and what we experience as "lag" between pitching and fermentation. The second state is when they live anaerobically. This time they have no more oxygen, so they stop reproducing and live off of sugars instead of oxygen.
So, we aerate our wort before pitching to assist in the aerobic reproductive phase of yeast life to build a larger number of cells to devour the sugar and create alcohol and CO2 in the next phase.
Technically, you could just skip aeration, pitch the amount of yeast cells you need to start fermentation and get right to it. But you'd be pitching multiple smack packs and/or vials and spending lots of cash. Most of us would rather just aerate and/or make a starter.
jgln
Well-Known Member
Not doubting you or science but when I start my yeast for making bread it undoubtably reacts the the small amount or sugar I add within minutes if the temp is right. So, how can the yeast in a sugary wort just "ignore" the sugars persent until they reporduce first? It is just like he/she made it sound like fermentation would not take place until reproduction. That is really what I am doubting I guess.
Consider that he might have brewed nothing but 'can and a kilo' kits, which only come with a 4 or 5g sachet of yeast, which is not 'optimal'. You do need two of those little packets or a starter, for even a moderate gravity brew, let alone a high gravity recipe.
ChshreCat
Well-Known Member
Because aerobic metabolism is easier. The yeast will go for the O2 much more than the sugar if both are present. They have to work more to convert sugar to energy.
jgln
Well-Known Member
Hmmmm.... I will have to do some reading. I was under the impression they went hand in hand, kind of like I need oxygen to breathe so I can do work and eat food. I was not aware yeast can eat O2 OR sugars; I just thought they could not eat sugars without O2 present.
I have never read a book on brewing, just followed kit directions then learned the rest from reading posts here.
ChshreCat
Well-Known Member
The yeast will use some sugar when they live aerobically, but in that chemical reaction, they oxidize the sugars completely and produce CO2 and water which would be a real bummer for your beer. Once the oxygen supply is gone they switch to anaerobic respiration which produces CO2 and ethanol which makes for much tastier beer.
northernlad
Well-Known Member
As I recall, BYO's experiment yielded evidence that under, proper, and over pitching did not show an appreciable difference in total fermentation time.
jgln
Well-Known Member
Thanks.
By the way, I always like to look at people's profile to get a feel for who I am speaking with given most of us will never meet. Are you really 81 years old? If so I am glad to see we have people involved in this hobby from all across the board.
northernlad
Well-Known Member
No, not 81. I misentered my birthday information and can't change it.
jgln
Well-Known Member
ChshreCat
Well-Known Member
Yeah, he's actually 97. But he's spry for an old dude.
jgln
Well-Known Member
I can see me doing something like brewing beer at 81; well I plan on giving it a shot anyway. I don't see myself sitting on the sofa all day complaining about how bored and achy I am. I was going to compliment him on that but did not want to insult the guy (old geezer). If you guys are still here in 31 years I will let you know how I made out with that.
Edcculus
Well-Known Member
Also, remember that your bread yeast and beer liquid culture (and even dry) yeast are two toally different beasts. Bread yeast at one point was exactly the same as brewers yeast. Bakers actually went to breweries to get their yeast. Over time, bread yeast has been selected for its ability to produce prodigious amounts of CO2 in a short period of time. While Peter Reinhard does espouse the benefit of delayed fermentation in bread making through a biga or poolish, what you are ultimately after is CO2 to lift the dough.
Most "active" or "instant" dry bread yeasts have tons of active cells packed into clumps of dead yeast cells. Their sole purpose is to produce gas, and produce a lot of it. Thats why when you proof it, you will see bubbling in minutes. We have a very different requirement for beer yeast. Just because its cranking out CO2, doesn't necessarily mean it is doing a whole lot. Like ChshreCat was saying, yeast (at least beer yeast) have several phases. Lag, log/growth and fermentation phases. In the lag phase, yeast use oxygen to build up proper cell walls. This is why oxygenation is important. If the yeast have weak cell walls, budding will not be as easy for them. If budding is not easy, you will end up with less yeast. During the log (logarmithic growth). Here, the yeast pretty much bud like crazy. This is where proper nutrients and oxygenation during the lag phase become important. Until this point, no converting sugar into alcohol, CO2 and other byproducts has occurred. This is also why "Fermentation may take up to 72 hours to show visible signs". Once oxygen has been depleted, yeast will move into their anerobic fermentation phase.
For more reading, go here
Most "active" or "instant" dry bread yeasts have tons of active cells packed into clumps of dead yeast cells. Their sole purpose is to produce gas, and produce a lot of it. Thats why when you proof it, you will see bubbling in minutes. We have a very different requirement for beer yeast. Just because its cranking out CO2, doesn't necessarily mean it is doing a whole lot. Like ChshreCat was saying, yeast (at least beer yeast) have several phases. Lag, log/growth and fermentation phases. In the lag phase, yeast use oxygen to build up proper cell walls. This is why oxygenation is important. If the yeast have weak cell walls, budding will not be as easy for them. If budding is not easy, you will end up with less yeast. During the log (logarmithic growth). Here, the yeast pretty much bud like crazy. This is where proper nutrients and oxygenation during the lag phase become important. Until this point, no converting sugar into alcohol, CO2 and other byproducts has occurred. This is also why "Fermentation may take up to 72 hours to show visible signs". Once oxygen has been depleted, yeast will move into their anerobic fermentation phase.
For more reading, go here
jgln
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the explanation and the link!
