De-alcoholizing beer (Belgian Wit)

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
lordbeermestrength said:
Making an Eisbock the traditional way also falls under regulation. Nobody will do anything about it, but it IS illegal unless you have permits.
Click to expand...

Freezing alcohol to remove the water is NOT illegal since it's not concidered distillation. There's no still involved and it doesn't incorporate heat.
 
Suthrncomfrt1884 said:
Freezing alcohol to remove the water is NOT illegal since it's not concidered distillation. There's no still involved and it doesn't incorporate heat.
Click to expand...

+1

I was just listening to a basic brewing radio where the host did just this with a barley wine. After a lot of listeners questioned the legality of what he had done he also contacted the TTB to determine the legality of the process and the response he got was that it did not violate any federal statutes. Local regulations may be a different story though
 
aplus01 said:
+1

I was just listening to a basic brewing radio where the host did just this with a barley wine. After a lot of listeners questioned the legality of what he had done he also contacted the TTB to determine the legality of the process and the response he got was that it did not violate any federal statutes. Local regulations may be a different story though
Click to expand...

This!

Eisbier is legal by federal law but I'm pretty sure there are a couple states that have outlawed it.
 
Suthrncomfrt1884 said:
Freezing alcohol to remove the water is NOT illegal since it's not concidered distillation. There's no still involved and it doesn't incorporate heat.
Click to expand...

It really doesn't matter if there is no "traditional" still involved. If you can explain to me how legally you would not be considered a distiller if you freeze distill a beer, I would be very interested to hear it.

TITLE 26 > Subtitle E > CHAPTER 51 > Subchapter A > PART I > Subpart A > § 5002
(4) Distiller
The term “distiller” includes any person who—
(A) produces distilled spirits from any source or substance,
(B) brews or makes mash, wort, or wash fit for distillation or for the production of distilled spirits (other than the making or using of mash, wort, or wash in the authorized production of wine or beer, or the production of vinegar by fermentation),
(C) by any process separates alcoholic spirits from any fermented substance, or
(D) making or keeping mash, wort, or wash, has a still in his possession or use.

Keep in mind the verbiage "any source or substance" and "by any process."

I don't see how if the gov't wanted to crack down on you they couldn't. The bottom line is, whatever you do they won't care. But if they changed their minds, they have legal justification to shut you down.
 
If you plan on using your freezer for making an eisbock, as ludicrous as it sounds, you need to register it to stay within the confines of the law:

TITLE 26 > Subtitle E > CHAPTER 51 > Subchapter B > § 5179
(a) Requirements
Every person having in his possession or custody, or under his control, any still or distilling apparatus set up, shall register such still or apparatus with the Secretary immediately on its being set up, by subscribing and filing with the Secretary a statement, in writing, setting forth the particular place where such still or distilling apparatus is set up, the kind of still and its capacity, the owner thereof, his place of residence, and the purpose for which said still or distilling apparatus has been or is intended to be used (except that stills or distilling apparatus not used or intended to be used for the distillation, redistillation, or recovery of distilled spirits are not required to be registered under this section).
 
lordbeermestrength said:
(B) brews or makes mash, wort, or wash fit for distillation or for the production of distilled spirits (other than the making or using of mash, wort, or wash in the authorized production of wine or beer, or the production of vinegar by fermentation),
(C) by any process separates alcoholic spirits from any fermented substance, or
(D) making or keeping mash, wort, or wash, has a still in his possession or use.
Click to expand...

This is an interesting thread and first I've seen on this forum where people were um, "passionate" about their views.

That said I'd like to understand something. The intent of the above points under regulation is for distilling to make "spirits".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distilled_beverage

"The term spirit refers to a distilled beverage that contains no added sugar and has at least 20% ABV."

If you look at point B, it refers to "production of distilled spirits".. I do not believe this is the same thing as beer, wine or hard cider. Also, as a home brewer if you did not intend on making distilled spirits then how does this regulation fall under a homebrewer say making an eisenbock?
 
If you want to use Wikipedia to bolster your legal case, go ahead. If you actually read the definitions in CHAPTER 51 > Subchapter A > PART I > Subpart A > § 5002 you'll see this gem:

(8) Distilled spirits
The terms “distilled spirits”, “alcoholic spirits”, and “spirits” mean that substance known as ethyl alcohol, ethanol, or spirits of wine in any form (including all dilutions and mixtures thereof from whatever source or by whatever process produced).

This means it is WHATEVER they want it to be. All I am saying is that you will not be able to find a legal recourse if the BATF wants to hammer you.
 
repomanz said:
Also, as a home brewer if you did not intend on making distilled spirits then how does this regulation fall under a homebrewer say making an eisenbock?
Click to expand...

The difference between an eisbock and any other "fermented beverage" is that an eisbock has had the alcohol "separated" by the means of an "apparatus." (these all being legal terms, lawlz)

I would be willing to bet large sums of money that no one will care a whit or prosecute you if you make an eisbock. However, in the off chance that the BATF busts into your house because they mixed up your neighbors illegal gun manufacturing with your address, they will find you guilty of distilling. The law is written so vaguely that they can call whatever you are doing a crime and they would technically be correct.
 
so i read thru the first several pages and stopped after seveal pages of alcohol/pregnancy debate, so forgive me if this was mentioned and i missed it....

what about freezing the beer? normally people do it to concentrate the alcohol, which ends up in the liquid part of the frozen beer, and discard the ice chunk.

but what if you froze maybe 2 gallons, and only retained the solids. i dont know if most of the flavor would remain in the liquid alcohol mix (seems plausable), but you could then do your 180* distillation on that concentrate (in a large shallow pan so it is able to evaporate), which should make distilling alcohol off even easier as its a more concentrated soloution, and then recombine the two.

i would think that would atleast get you a lower ABV then your orig method of just heating the beer. but putting a beer in the freezer is actually illegal in CT, as its "distilling", so do so at your own risk.
 
Thinking out loud:

I wonder how necessary the fermentation step is at all. Water is 1.000, a dry-ish beer is 1.008. Could you possibly steep some ingredients, a little bit of hops, and if you were doing a wit plenty of orange and coriander, and then force carb it in a keg?
 
HokieBrewer said:
Thinking out loud:

I wonder how necessary the fermentation step is at all. Water is 1.000, a dry-ish beer is 1.008. Could you possibly steep some ingredients, a little bit of hops, and if you were doing a wit plenty of orange and coriander, and then force carb it in a keg?
Click to expand...

While I think this is very possible, I doubt it would taste much like beer. It might make a nice malt soda though.
 
Seltzer water tastes similar to some NA beers. If we're trying to get reasonably close, I think I'd still try going that way.
 
I skipped out on this thread for a few days for obvious reasons. Boiling his beer to drive off alcohol is no different that cooking with wine. He could be making a belgian wit syrup for icecream (sounds good eh?) or boiling down some apple cider to make an apple syrup. It's no different. Any police dept that decided that prosecute on that due to vague language would be plain stupid or from Alabama.

The tricky thing with boiling the alcohol off in order to make a low alcohol version of the beer is the heat damage to proteins and other flavor compounds in the brew. Also while ethanol boils at 178 (I forget exactly and don't want to look up), other alcohols boil at higher temps. So while you won't really be concentrating them they will still be there and those alcohols may be more detrimental to health than plain ole ethanol. So the boiling might not remove enough hazards for your time invested.

I'm not saying to not do it, I'm just saying that I wouldn't spend the time to boil the beer. Now if I can get a brewery and also get a license to distill I will look into that sort of thing.
 
lordbeermestrength said:
It really doesn't matter if there is no "traditional" still involved. If you can explain to me how legally you would not be considered a distiller if you freeze distill a beer, I would be very interested to hear it.

TITLE 26 > Subtitle E > CHAPTER 51 > Subchapter A > PART I > Subpart A > § 5002
(4) Distiller
The term “distiller” includes any person who—
(A) produces distilled spirits from any source or substance,
(B) brews or makes mash, wort, or wash fit for distillation or for the production of distilled spirits (other than the making or using of mash, wort, or wash in the authorized production of wine or beer, or the production of vinegar by fermentation),
(C) by any process separates alcoholic spirits from any fermented substance, or
(D) making or keeping mash, wort, or wash, has a still in his possession or use.

Keep in mind the verbiage "any source or substance" and "by any process."

I don't see how if the gov't wanted to crack down on you they couldn't. The bottom line is, whatever you do they won't care. But if they changed their minds, they have legal justification to shut you down.
Click to expand...


You are not separating the alcohol. You are removing a portion of the water, reducing volume and dilution, which concentrates the ABV. Distillation is the evaporation of alcohols into vapors, and then condensing them back into a liquid to have concentrated alcohol. Say I have a 10% ABV beer, and freeze concentrate it to 20%. How is that any different than fermenting a beer to 20% abv, other than adding more water with the 10% beer, then removing it at a later time. With the 20% fermented beer you're just adding less water, concentrating the sugar. Nevermind volumes, I am talking about process.
 
lordbeermestrength said:
It really doesn't matter if there is no "traditional" still involved. If you can explain to me how legally you would not be considered a distiller if you freeze distill a beer, I would be very interested to hear it.

TITLE 26 > Subtitle E > CHAPTER 51 > Subchapter A > PART I > Subpart A > § 5002
(4) Distiller
The term “distiller” includes any person who—
(A) produces distilled spirits from any source or substance,
(B) brews or makes mash, wort, or wash fit for distillation or for the production of distilled spirits (other than the making or using of mash, wort, or wash in the authorized production of wine or beer, or the production of vinegar by fermentation),
(C) by any process separates alcoholic spirits from any fermented substance, or
(D) making or keeping mash, wort, or wash, has a still in his possession or use.

Keep in mind the verbiage "any source or substance" and "by any process."

I don't see how if the gov't wanted to crack down on you they couldn't. The bottom line is, whatever you do they won't care. But if they changed their minds, they have legal justification to shut you down.
Click to expand...


Interestingly enough, James Spencer from BBR wondered the same thing y'all are debating...so he called up the TTB.

According to the TTB, freeze distilling is concentrating and not distilling and therefore not illegal for unlicensed people. The TTB has no interest in homebrewer's that freeze distillate. They're only concern is taxing the alcohol in it if you're commercial.

So, that's from the horse's mouth.

Now, one could argue that only applies to federal issues. Ok, that's fine, let's move on to state. I can logically reason that my state, Georgia, does not consider freeze distilled alcohol as alcohol since I can purcahse eisbocks at beer only stores (stores that do not have the license to sell liquor).

Finally, scientifically, freeze distilling is concentrating, not distilling. It is a misnomer. In a court of law you would win because the law is written for distillation which is very easily defined.
 
jmhart said:
Interestingly enough, James Spencer from BBR wondered the same thing y'all are debating...so he called up the TTB.

According to the TTB, freeze distilling is concentrating and not distilling and therefore not illegal for unlicensed people. The TTB has no interest in homebrewer's that freeze distillate. They're only concern is taxing the alcohol in it if you're commercial.

So, that's from the horse's mouth.

Now, one could argue that only applies to federal issues. Ok, that's fine, let's move on to state. I can logically reason that my state, Georgia, does not consider freeze distilled alcohol as alcohol since I can purcahse eisbocks at beer only stores (stores that do not have the license to sell liquor).

Finally, scientifically, freeze distilling is concentrating, not distilling. It is a misnomer. In a court of law you would win because the law is written for distillation which is very easily defined.
Click to expand...

Look, all I'm saying is be aware of the possible legal conflicts. I have personally "freeze distilled" myself before. And, like I said multiple times, they won't care if you do. All I am saying is that the was the law is written, all the feds have to do is interpret it differently.

And it's not the TTB that will bust you, it's the ATF. The TTB only cares if you sell, the ATF will bust you if they have the inclination. The 4th amendment doesn't apply to these guys. If you doubt it, talk to someone who has dealt with them before. They told a guy who designed a butt stock for 10-22's that it was legal, but after he spent hundreds of thousands building more of them they reversed their previous position and he lost everything.

I just think people need to be aware of potential gray areas. Perhaps the State of Georgia finds a distinction between freeze distillation and heat distillation. That doesn't mean the feds do. (Besides, I'm not convinced they are necessarily "true" eisbocks and instead just "freeze conditioned" or concentrated prior to fermentation.)

Just one more point. No one is saying the law makes sense. For example: (this is true in Oregon) If you own a meadery and you decide you would like to make a braggot, legally you magically become a brewery and are taxed and regulated differently simply because you have malted grains on the factory floor. Hell, I've seen cops write tickets for complete BS items like "failing to put a seatbelt on prior to putting keys in the ignition." If the judge goes along with it, you're screwed.

BUT- I don't care if you freeze your beer. The state you live in doesn't care. Uncle Sam doesn't care. NO ONE CARES.

(Unless they change their mind)
 
audger said:
but what if you froze maybe 2 gallons, and only retained the solids. i dont know if most of the flavor would remain in the liquid alcohol mix (seems plausable), but you could then do your 180* distillation on that concentrate (in a large shallow pan so it is able to evaporate), which should make distilling alcohol off even easier as its a more concentrated soloution, and then recombine the two.
Click to expand...

Anyone try this? I like this idea. You'll get some of the alcohol in the ice you freeze off, but if you brew a ~3% beer there shouldn't be much. With a chest freezer you could probably eliminate >80% of the alcohol this way. That would get you down into the <0.5% NA range.
 
lordbeermestrength said:
Look, all I'm saying is be aware of the possible legal conflicts. I have personally "freeze distilled" myself before. And, like I said multiple times, they won't care if you do. All I am saying is that the was the law is written, all the feds have to do is interpret it differently.

And it's not the TTB that will bust you, it's the ATF.
Click to expand...

The ATF hasn't had that responsibility since 2003, unless you are transporting your concentrated beers over state lines.
 
brewdog in aberdeenshire scotland have produced some bloody ridiculous "beers" through freeze distilation33%41%and even59%...

hardly alcohol free,i admit......heres a link to their website on the page for sink the bismark their 41% efforthttp://www.brewdog.com/sink_the_bismark

if you look through their website tell me are you reminded of certain american breweries?

most of their normal stuff is top notch though:mug:

they did a 1.1% alcohol hop bomb called "nanny state" after they were critisised for making high abv beers
 
lordbeermestrength said:
Look, all I'm saying is be aware of the possible legal conflicts. I have personally "freeze distilled" myself before. And, like I said multiple times, they won't care if you do. All I am saying is that the was the law is written, all the feds have to do is interpret it differently.

And it's not the TTB that will bust you, it's the ATF. The TTB only cares if you sell, the ATF will bust you if they have the inclination. The 4th amendment doesn't apply to these guys. If you doubt it, talk to someone who has dealt with them before. They told a guy who designed a butt stock for 10-22's that it was legal, but after he spent hundreds of thousands building more of them they reversed their previous position and he lost everything.

I just think people need to be aware of potential gray areas. Perhaps the State of Georgia finds a distinction between freeze distillation and heat distillation. That doesn't mean the feds do. (Besides, I'm not convinced they are necessarily "true" eisbocks and instead just "freeze conditioned" or concentrated prior to fermentation.)

Just one more point. No one is saying the law makes sense. For example: (this is true in Oregon) If you own a meadery and you decide you would like to make a braggot, legally you magically become a brewery and are taxed and regulated differently simply because you have malted grains on the factory floor. Hell, I've seen cops write tickets for complete BS items like "failing to put a seatbelt on prior to putting keys in the ignition." If the judge goes along with it, you're screwed.

BUT- I don't care if you freeze your beer. The state you live in doesn't care. Uncle Sam doesn't care. NO ONE CARES.

(Unless they change their mind)
Click to expand...

First off, I am not worried about it being illegal, I couldn't care less if it was, I just want to clarify it is NOT distilling. Let me reiterate...

ODaniel said:
You are not separating the alcohol (the only possible grey area in their description, however, it seems pretty black and white to me). You are removing a portion of the water, reducing volume and dilution, which concentrates the ABV. Distillation is the evaporation of alcohols into vapors, and then condensing them back into a liquid to have concentrated alcohol. Say I have a 10% ABV beer, and freeze concentrate it to 20%. How is that any different than fermenting a beer to 20% abv, other than adding more water with the 10% beer, then removing it at a later time. With the 20% fermented beer you're just adding less water, concentrating the sugar. Nevermind volumes, I am talking about process.
Click to expand...

It is concentrating. Removing water (dilution), resulting in the concentration of everything else in the liquid. You are not separating the alcohol, you are just removing some of the water/dilution. It is concentration, not distillation.

Further proof if you don't believe me..

Rulings on "Ice Beer" and Concentrate. I don't see the word distill anywhere in there... (fyi most of that is talking about making beer concentrate and then adding water before packaging, or making "Ice Beer" that has only had a very small amount of water removed, such has Bud Ice and all of those, however, point being it is concentration..)

http://www.ttb.gov/rulings/94-3.htm
 
ODaniel said:
Further proof if you don't believe me..

Rulings on "Ice Beer" and Concentrate. I don't see the word distill anywhere in there... (fyi most of that is talking about making beer concentrate and then adding water before packaging, or making "Ice Beer" that has only had a very small amount of water removed, such has Bud Ice and all of those, however, point being it is concentration..)

http://www.ttb.gov/rulings/94-3.htm
Click to expand...

Wait a minute. I read this and it actually proves my point. They are saying it only counts as a concentrate if the volume reduction is less than 0.5%.

The definition of "beer concentrate" in 27 CFR 25.11 does not include a beer whose volume has been reduced as long as there is not more than a 0.5 percent by volume reduction in the beer, and the resultant product retains its character as beer.
Click to expand...


I guess if you only take off no more than a 3 ounces off of a 5 gallon recipe you're okay. But everyone I've ever seen do this takes off at a MINIMUM 5% (i.e., 10 times the legal amount) of volume.
 
lordbeermestrength said:
Wait a minute. I read this and it actually proves my point. They are saying it only counts as a concentrate if the volume reduction is less than 0.5%.




I guess if you only take off no more than a 3 ounces off of a 5 gallon recipe you're okay. But everyone I've ever seen do this takes off at a MINIMUM 5% (i.e., 10 times the legal amount) of volume.
Click to expand...

What? No, your point was that it could be considered DISTILLING. This section talking about Ice Beer and Concentrate and never mentioned the word distill, only Ice and Concentrate, thus proving my point.

As for the 0.5%, in their eyes, if the reduction is less, than it is an "Ice Beer". If it is greater than 0.5% reduction, it is considered concentrate. The 0.5% has nothing to do with technique or our purposes, only governmental classification. This is simply proving that the word "distillation" has nothing to do with freezing a beer and removing the ice, thus CONCENTRATING it.

Get it now?
 
Anyway how did the OP's beer turn out? I checked in on a debate about distillation.
 
Ok...lets stop the debate on this. No one is going to freeze the beer since it will concentrate the alcohol and flavors which is the opposite of the goal of this thread. There is also no need to collect the alcohol, so it isn't distilling.
 
FWIW, HBT's stance is to allow discussions concerning freeze concentration, based upon James Spencer's findings.

I agree. Enough debate on legality/morality. Wait, did I say that before?
 
It's okay. I yield anyway. ODaniel is right, apparently there is a legal distinction between concentrate and distilled liquor:
Subpart R—Beer Concentrate
top
§ 25.261 General.
top
(a) Authorized processes. A brewer may, in accordance with this subpart—
(1) Produce concentrate from beer,
(2) Reconstitute beer from concentrate,
(3) Transfer concentrate from one brewery to another brewery of the same ownership, and
(4) Remove concentrate without payment of tax for exportation, or for transfer to and deposit in a foreign-trade zone for exportation or for storage pending exportation in accordance with Part 28 of this chapter.
(b) Brewery treatment of concentrate. Beer reconstituted from concentrate in accordance with this subpart shall (except with respect to the additional labeling of reconstituted beer under §25.263) be treated the same as beer which has not been concentrated and reconstituted.
(Sec. 201, Pub. L. 85–859, 72 Stat. 1388, as amended (26 U.S.C. 5401))
[T.D. ATF–224, 51 FR 7673, Mar. 5, 1986, as amended by T.D. TTB–8, 69 FR 3830, Jan. 27, 2004]
Click to expand...

What does this have to do with the OP question? Not much, other than it allows (legally) for removing alcohol via the method audger provided:
audger said:
what if you froze maybe 2 gallons, and only retained the solids. i dont know if most of the flavor would remain in the liquid alcohol mix (seems plausable), but you could then do your 180* distillation on that concentrate (in a large shallow pan so it is able to evaporate), which should make distilling alcohol off even easier as its a more concentrated soloution, and then recombine the two.

i would think that would atleast get you a lower ABV then your orig method of just heating the beer. but putting a beer in the freezer is actually illegal in CT, as its "distilling", so do so at your own risk.
Click to expand...

Seems to me this is the best way to remove a majority of alcohol while (hopefully) retaining most of the flavor. You could still add a hop-tea to this and get your hops aroma bumped up as well.

And..... NOW we are back on topic. :mug:
 

Similar threads

advaitbanga
Belgian beer with cascade (leftover)
Replies
0
Views
249
advaitbanga
advaitbanga
bricks
Belgian Wit Questions
Replies
8
Views
2K
bricks
bricks
K
Beer overly bitter after priming
Replies
10
Views
1K
mac_1103
mac_1103
Clint Yeastwood
My Undrinkable Beer Got Better
Replies
24
Views
2K
corkybstewart
corkybstewart
4_Sons_Brewing
12 Beers of Christmas - 2023 Edition
11 12 13
Replies
512
Views
20K
passedpawn
passedpawn

Latest posts

Back
Top