EZ Water Calculator 3.0

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For Ca(OH)2 and CaSO4, those additions listed above both produce ionic concentrations that will be higher than a brewing situation should ever want. So for almost all those minerals listed, they are 'infinitely' soluble for brewing purposes. Chalk is the exception.

I almost lumped them all together (except chalk) but then started thinking that while a gram of gypsum per liter is a lot it puts "only" 558 mg/L sulfate in the water which is not that much greater than what is seen in some recipes, water profiles etc. Lets say that 400 mg/L is the most sulfate anyone would want to use. 558 is 0.14 orders of magnitude above that but a gram per liter is only 0.3 orders of magnitude less than its solubility. So maximum sulfate addition to solubility limit in cold water is 0.44 orders of magnitude (less in hot water) and its been noted here that getting gypsum to dissolve can be a bit of bear - especially if one tries to dissolve it in hot water.

By contrast, a gram of calcium chloride (monohydrate) would produce about 550 mg chloride. That's a lot of chloride. Lets say 250 mg/L is the most anyone would ever want. That's 0.34 orders of magnitude less. But the solubility of calcium chloride is around 700 grams/L (at room temperature) which is 2.8 orders of magnitude more than 1 gram per liter. Ratio of maximum addition to solubility is thus over 3 orders of magnitude whereas for the gypsum its less than one. I guess in my mind calling a ratio "approximately infinite" is more supportable when it has a few 0's in it (to the left of the decimal place). That's the main reason I separated gypsum (and calcium hydroxide) out form the others but I probably had the scheme I use to add salts to the HLT which is to add all the salts to water to make up 36 mL of solution because my HLT is 36" tall and add 1 cc of that solution for every inch of water I put into the HLT. This works just fine for calcium chloride but would not work for gypsum. I guess just having it is suspension would be OK as long as I remembered to shake the tube before drawing an aliquot.

You're kind of hard on chalk although its poor reputation is deserved.

Yes I am and it's because I have seen so many postings, recipes and recommendations in which huge quantities of it are called for in situations where it is more probable that acid would be of benefit. If brewers were a little afraid to use for fear that the ghost of A.J. will come to haunt them that would be OK with me.


But, it still can have a place in brewing with the proper understanding of its idiosyncrasies. As you and Kai Troester have pointed out, about half the predicted alkalinity from chalk is contributed to water if the chalk is not 'dissolved' into the water with an acid. When 'naturally' dissolved by carbonic acid, all the predicted alkalinity is contributed to the water. Either bubbling air or CO2 through the water produces carbonic acid for that dissolution.

The apparent problem here is predicting the alkalinty. Where chalk has been dissolved by CO2 about half the alkalinity is contributed by the chalk and half by the CO2 as long as the pH is middling. I was troubled by Kai's method because once you open the bottle CO2 escapes and the pH rises and unless you know the pH you can't know the alkalinity and while the you are measuring pH CO2 is continuing to escape and eventually enough will escape that the chalk will start to precipitate back out. It was only last night that it dawned on me (Kai might have already figured this out) that it doesn't matter what happens in the soda bottle as long as you get the liquid into the liquor tank before precipitation occurs. At that point you have chalk dissolved by CO2 and even though you don't know how much CO2 may have escaped if you have the pH of the water and the amount of chalk you dissolved with the CO2 you can solve for the alkalinity. To do that requires iterative solution of a set of nonlinear equations but, and this also dawned on me last night, the solution is the same every time you do it, so if the solutions as a function of pH can be fit with a simple function you are there.

alk = [CaCO3]*( 1.0167 -0.39579*exp( -(pH - 4.7)/0.43063 ) )

Here [CaCO3] is the amount of chalk you put in the soda bottle (in mg) divided by the number of liters in the final mix i.e. the water you added the soda bottle contents to plus the water in the soda bottle. pH is the pH of the mixture after addition of the soda water bottle contents. The alkalinity is defined in terms of a titration to an endpoint at pH 4.3. This fit is valid over the range 4.7 < pH < 9. Note that at pH > 6.5 the alkalinity is approximately 101.7 ppm as CaCO3 per 100 mg/L CaCO3 in the mix and this is, of course, why we use ppm as CaCO3 as the unit of alkalinity. Another caveat that goes with this is that the solutions which this fit describes are for the situation where the only acid in the system is carbonic. It would be possible to do the same this if other acids were present but as the diversity of possible other acid types and blends is infinite pre-computation as I've done here isn't practical.

I've from time to time said that all this water chemistry stuff would be a lot easier if one could buy calcium bicarbonate powder. This may be the next best thing - calcium bicarbonate solution and I even though briefly about offering such a thing as a product. Essentially soda water with some chalk dissolved in it (but no sodium chloride).

Your mantra of not adding alkalinity to brewing water unless actually needed is sound. But there are situations where alkalinity is needed and chalk is a viable, yet poor, avenue for adding it.

No argument there. The reason we have trouble with chalk is that we can't easily handle it as mother nature does. She uses CO2 to dissolve it and we must too if we want similar results.
 
i am having trouble with the alkalinity radio button... anyone else (mac Office 2008)

try downloading the openoffice version and opening that in mac office 2008 (if that's possible - i don't even know). The radio button in that version works a little differently and maybe that would work better in mac office 2008.
 
Quick question - let's assume the following:

Strike water - 3.5g
Mashout water - 1.25g
Batch Sparge water - 3.25
Target pre-boil volume - 6.5g

I will be adding salts to the 3.5g mash directly, and then be adding salts the the boil kettle, not directly to the sparge water.

I think we can all agree that in EZ calculator, my mash volume should be keyed in as 3.5g.

Now, should I key my sparge volume as 3.0g (total pre-boil less mash water), or 4.5g (actual mashout/sparge water additions)

Thanks.
 
Can someone please confirm that I did this correctly. I'm using all RO water, so my minerals are all extremely low. Also, I'm not a hop fan, so I wanted this balanced more towards maltiness rather than bitterness. Here's the recipe I'm brewing:

Code:
9 lbs 12.8 oz        Pale Malt (2 Row) US
1 lbs 3.0 oz         Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L
12.9 oz              Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L
7.2 oz               Caramel Malt - 90L
0.55 oz              Cascade [7.50 %] - Boil 60.0 min
1.00 Items           Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins)
0.83 oz              Saaz [5.80 %] - Boil 15.0 min
1.0 pkg              German Ale/Kolsch (White Labs #WLP029)

Batch Size (fermenter): 5.50 gal
Boil Size: 8.10 gal
Boil Time: 60 min
End of Boil Volume 6.50 gal
Brewhouse Efficiency: 65.00 %

Est Original Gravity: 1.052 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.010 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.5 %
Bitterness: 21.6 IBUs
Est Color: 13.6 SRM

Strike water: 3.83gal
Sparge water: 5.98gal

And here's what I've figured for my water additions:
http://pensphreak.com/homebrew/Altbier-water.jpeg

1.3g/2.0g Gypsum (mash/sparge)
1.9g/3.0g Calcium Chloride (mash/sparge)
1oz 2% Acidulated Malt
 
TH, can you make that small change to the spreadsheet and change "sparge water" to "boil"?

I get emails every day from people who think taht sparge water additions need to go in their sparge water instead of the boil. Your v1 spreadsheet used to indicate this but v3 does not.

If I had a nickel for every time I told someone this, I'd have a lots of nickels to donate to you. ;)

Kal
 
TH, can you make that small change to the spreadsheet and change "sparge water" to "boil"?

I get emails every day from people who think taht sparge water additions need to go in their sparge water instead of the boil. Your v1 spreadsheet used to indicate this but v3 does not.

If I had a nickel for every time I told someone this, I'd have a lots of nickels to donate to you. ;)

Kal

done deal. version 3.0.2 is now available.

btw I hope to be going electric in the near future and I must say you have got quite a resource over there at theelectricbrewery.com...
 
Thanks for the addition TH! I like how you worded it. Should avoid future confusion. ;)

Let me know if you have any electric questions and good look with the conversion!

Kal
 
When I change the mash thickness from say 1.5 qt/lb to 2.8 qt/lb, I'm only getting a pH change of .01. From what I've read of Kai's work here

link to Kai's work

specifically looking at figure 2 on that page

link go figure 2

I'm seeing a much larger pH shift in a 2 l/kg versus a 5 l/kg mash in a typical 85% base malt, 15% cara malt recipe, for example look at the pH levels at an SRM of around 12.
 
Whether you see a pH shift with water/malt ratio depends on the alkalinity of the water. If it is high relative to the buffering capacity of the malt you will see a pronounced change. If it is low then you won't see much change at all. The malt is a buffer system. Buffers resist pH change (that's why they are called buffers). Water alkalinity stresses the buffer. How much it yields depends on how much alkalinity is applied.
 
I think I just read 13 pages of Greek!
I think it was something about beer, but not sure.

All kidding aside, I have just sent off my water to be tested, and I am ready to take the next step in brewing, and learn about water, and treating it to make better beer.
I am looking forward to learning more, and deciphering the wealth of info here!
 
Has anyone else noticed that the distilled water pH of a specific grain from a specific manufacturer can change from bag to bag? I do not yet have a mill and purchase/grind my grains at my LHBS for each batch. I have noticed that the distilled water pH is different everytime I check a specific grain, say Weyerman Pilsner. I have seen it easily vary over .1 points. This is using the same process and same meter every time. Meter is accurate to .01.

Additionally, can the pH of the bag of grains change overtime? About to invest in a mill to eliminate the need to test my base grain for every batch but not sure if this will solve the problem.
 
It doesn't have a DME or Extract entry in the malt field for Partial Mash beers.

:(
 
AJ,

For Ca(OH)2 and CaSO4, those additions listed above both produce ionic concentrations that will be higher than a brewing situation should ever want. So for almost all those minerals listed, they are 'infinitely' soluble for brewing purposes. Chalk is the exception.

You're kind of hard on chalk although its poor reputation is deserved. But, it still can have a place in brewing with the proper understanding of its idiosyncrasies. As you and Kai Troester have pointed out, about half the predicted alkalinity from chalk is contributed to water if the chalk is not 'dissolved' into the water with an acid. When 'naturally' dissolved by carbonic acid, all the predicted alkalinity is contributed to the water. Either bubbling air or CO2 through the water produces carbonic acid for that dissolution.

Your mantra of not adding alkalinity to brewing water unless actually needed is sound. But there are situations where alkalinity is needed and chalk is a viable, yet poor, avenue for adding it.

I couldn't agree more. Many people discredit chalk in brewing without realizing that it may be better to use than lime, cal chlor, or acid depending on the particular water profile and recipe. In some cases, you don't need full dissolution; just a little alkalinity boost without adding additional unnecessary sodium, sulfate, or chloride.
 
Has anyone else noticed that the distilled water pH of a specific grain from a specific manufacturer can change from bag to bag? I do not yet have a mill and purchase/grind my grains at my LHBS for each batch. I have noticed that the distilled water pH is different everytime I check a specific grain, say Weyerman Pilsner. I have seen it easily vary over .1 points. This is using the same process and same meter every time. Meter is accurate to .01.

Additionally, can the pH of the bag of grains change overtime? About to invest in a mill to eliminate the need to test my base grain for every batch but not sure if this will solve the problem.

Yes, the DI pH of a malt can change quite a bit from bag to bag. I actually asked about the malt changing over time in another thread, but no one seemed to know. Even AJ had never done the test.
 
It doesn't have a DME or Extract entry in the malt field for Partial Mash beers.

:(

If you're talking about EZ Calculator (I'm assuming you are, but perhaps not...), why would it have a DME entry? Normally DME is added after the mash, for a partial mash, last time I heard.
 
My findings are that you can have, for a single batch of malt, just about any DI pH you want. Just wait. Adding malt to DI water the initial pH is quite low but it climbs, more rapidly at first, but will continue to increase for an hour or more. So when someone tells you DI water mash pH you need to ask "When?".
 
I normally do mine at 15 minutes, since that's when I normally take my mash pH in my actual mashes. I don't know if that makes my estimates more accurate or not, but it couldn't hurt.
 
Hi there !

I've used recently this software to estimate the mash pH and to determine the ppm of the Ions .

The Concentration of Ions are determined due to total volume ( Mash + Sparge ) , but the problem is that the total volume would be
practically less than what the Calculator measures , because of absorption by the grains and evaporation .

So , when I'm adding salts to reduce the pH , how can I determine the concentration of Ions precisely by using this Calculator ?!

Hector
 
Hi there !

I've used recently this software to estimate the mash pH and to determine the ppm of the Ions .

The Concentration of Ions are determined due to total volume ( Mash + Sparge ) , but the problem is that the total volume would be practically less than what the Calculator measures , because of absorption by the grains and evaporation .

So , when I'm adding salts to reduce the pH , how can I determine the concentration of Ions precisely by using this Calculator ?!

Hector

I'm not exactly sure what you're asking, but I believe the answer is that the concentrations in the run-off will be the same as the concentration in the entire volume of water initially (or at least roughly).
 
I'm not exactly sure what you're asking

Nice to hear from you here !

Assume I'm using 1 Gallon of water for the Mash and 2 Gallons for the sparge .

The Calculator measures the total volume as 3 Gallons and determines the ppm of the Ions due to that volume .

But , practically I get 2.5 Gallons of wort as the pre-boil volume .

So , the wort is more concentrated than the Calculator measured .

For example , the Calculator says ( Ca = 90 ppm ) , but it is really 116 ppm and so on .

Should I add less amounts of salts ?!

Hector
 
It's true that you're going to have a higher concentration of ions after the boil. However, the recommended ion levels are for the pre-boil volume of water, so you don't need to worry about the concentration as a result of the boil.
 
But that would assume that none of the ions got absorbed into the grain along with the water, which certainly isn't true.

It may be that the ions and the water don't get absorbed in exactly the same proportions, but I think it would be a pretty minor difference. It seems to me to be a fairly reasonable assumption that the minerals follow the water.
 
But that would assume that none of the ions got absorbed into the grain along with the water, which certainly isn't true.

It may be that the ions and the water don't get absorbed in exactly the same proportions, but I think it would be a pretty minor difference. It seems to me to be a fairly reasonable assumption that the minerals follow the water.

True, I'm sure there will be some change, but I doubt it's a huge change. And, again, as long as he's in the recommended ranges, he doesn't really have to worry.
 
True, I'm sure there will be some change, but I doubt it's a huge change. And, again, as long as he's in the recommended ranges, he doesn't really have to worry.

I used recently a small amount of grains ( 0.785 lbs ) to see my Efficiency .

Mash water volume = 1.114 Liters

sparge water volume = 1.484 Liters

Pre-boil volume = 1.926 Liters instead of 2.6 Liters

I also lose some volume due to evaporation . but , as you said , since I'm in the recommended range , I don't have to worry .

Hector
 
Right, a portion of the water will get stuck in the system (absorbed by grains/trapped in dead space). But the minerals that are in the water will also be stuck in the system. it isn't as though there will be pure water in your mash tun, and all the calcium and chloride will come out in the wort. The concentrations of ions in all the liquid will remain (more or less) the same.
 
Tried to enter the same parameters in 3.0.1 and 3.0.2....

New 3.0.2 : Calculated mash pH = 5.50
Old 3.0.1 : Calculated mash pH = 5.30

Ouch! What to make of this...?
 
EZ, as is the case with all the spreadsheets and calculators, is based on a model. The nice thing about a model is that it can be easily changed as knowledge/experience increases. What you can make of this is that the author of the spreadsheet has new information that has lead him to change the model such that it more accurately reflects the new information. Whether that information better reflects your situation or not is a separate question. Modeling may be based on science but it is really an art.
 
I am new to using this ezwater calculator so be easy on me but I have a few questions.

My water has the following profile

Calcium 38
Magnesium 23
Sodium 28
Chloride 46
SO4-S 33
HCO3 186

Grain is -

9.5 lbs Pilsner
2.5 Munich
2.5 Vienna
.5 Caramel 60

I have 8 grams of Gypsum at mash and 6.6grams at Sparge (which is my second question. Just to be sure I am adding both of these, correct ? 8 at mash and 6.6 at sparge)

I am having trouble getting my Ph down under 5.67 but everything is within Palmers ranges on the bottom.

Any guidance would be appreciated.
 
I am new to using this ezwater calculator so be easy on me but I have a few questions.

My water has the following profile

Calcium 38
Magnesium 23
Sodium 28
Chloride 46
SO4-S 33
HCO3 186

Grain is -

9.5 lbs Pilsner
2.5 Munich
2.5 Vienna
.5 Caramel 60

I have 8 grams of Gypsum at mash and 6.6grams at Sparge (which is my second question. Just to be sure I am adding both of these, correct ? 8 at mash and 6.6 at sparge)

I am having trouble getting my Ph down under 5.67 but everything is within Palmers ranges on the bottom.

Any guidance would be appreciated.

You need to add acid (usually lactic or phosphoric). You have quite a bit of alkalinity (your HCO3 number), which prevents the pH from dropping far enough. Acid will combat that alkalinity. However, you probably want to dilute your water with distilled or RO, though, so you don't have to add as much acid (which you might start tasting if you add too much in an attempt to get your pH down).
 
I am new to using this ezwater calculator so be easy on me but I have a few questions.

My water has the following profile

Calcium 38
Magnesium 23
Sodium 28
Chloride 46
SO4-S 33
HCO3 186

Grain is -

9.5 lbs Pilsner
2.5 Munich
2.5 Vienna
.5 Caramel 60

I have 8 grams of Gypsum at mash and 6.6grams at Sparge (which is my second question. Just to be sure I am adding both of these, correct ? 8 at mash and 6.6 at sparge)

I am having trouble getting my Ph down under 5.67 but everything is within Palmers ranges on the bottom.

Any guidance would be appreciated.

You need to add acid (usually lactic or phosphoric). You have quite a bit of alkalinity (your HCO3 number), which prevents the pH from dropping far enough. Acid will combat that alkalinity. However, you probably want to dilute your water with distilled or RO, though, so you don't have to add as much acid (which you might start tasting if you add too much in an attempt to get your pH down).
 
You need to add acid (usually lactic or phosphoric). You have quite a bit of alkalinity (your HCO3 number), which prevents the pH from dropping far enough. Acid will combat that alkalinity. However, you probably want to dilute your water with distilled or RO, though, so you don't have to add as much acid (which you might start tasting if you add too much in an attempt to get your pH down).

Thanks. I don't suppose there is an easy calculation for how to dilute ?
 
Dilution calculation is very straightforward. If you are using RO water to dilute, you probably won't go too far wrong if you just assume there's nothing in it. In that case, the change in concentration is strictly proportional. So if you dilute 50-50, you simply divide all your concentrations in half. If you diltue 3-to-1 RO water to your water, you divide all the concentrations by four (three-quarters of the water will be nothing, one quarter will be your water).
 
I believe that there's a cell within that spreadsheet for RO dilutions.
 
OK, so now I entered a 50% dilution using RO. I now am at 5 grams Gypsum and 3ml of lactic acid. Do I do 3ml in mash AND 3ml in the sparge of lactic acid ?

The resulting water profile is -


Calcium Magnesium Sodium Chloride Sulfate Chloride / Sulfate
(Ca ppm) (Mg ppm) (Na ppm) (Cl ppm) (SO4 ppm) Ratio
83 12 14 23 173 0.13
83 12 14 23 173 0.13
50 - 150 10 - 30 0 - 150 0 - 250 50 - 350 Below .77, May e nhance bitterness

I appreciate the help.
 
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