Idea for switching to electric

I intend to switch over to full electric next year. The intention is a PID setup with one element in the HLT/Kettle. I will be using my cooler for a MLT and do not intend for a HERMS setup yet.

First point, I am not an electrician nor do I know electrical codes but I do understand electricity and the actual wiring as my job involves in depth understanding of these. So I do not need the responses muddied up with how dangerous water and electricity are nor how an electrician should be called.

I am living in a rented house. I rent from my uncle and could change electrical if necessary but it would entitle spending my own cash for a place I may only be in for another year or so.

The idea is to use the existing outlet for the stove to plug in the control box for the element since it will only be 1 element. The outlet for this breaker is 240v 50a. I can not tell what gauge the wire is as the sheathing does not have the ga. listed. The house is over 70 years old but I can tell for sure that this circuit is not nearly as old.

Question 1: Is it alright to use just a 3 wire connection even if it does not have a dedicated ground since the neutral on a 240v really is the exact same thing as a ground?

I understand the ground is an extra protection measure but in this case it is simply a redundant measure. If necessary it will be easy as pie for me to run a ground strap or rewire to go 4 wire connection.

Question 2: During the summer it would be nice to brew outside. Can someone help with the requirements for wire gauge vs length of run? I am looking at an initial run from breaker to outlet of 25ft then another 20ft from outlet to control panel.

Question 3: Will the GFCI breaker affect operation of the stove? I understand the answer to this is a resounding no in theory but but we all know how touchy a GFCI can be.


I thank you all for reading this long post and helping me on the journey.

Q1: You really need a separate ground. Current actually flows through the neutral wire, so if it was ever compromised and something provided a path to ground, ie. you, thats where the current would flow.

Q2: At 45' you don't need to be concerned with upping the wire size. 10 AWG would be fine for a 5500W (assuming) element.

Q3: You are right, in theory, no, the GFCI should not affect the stove operation, but in my experience resistive loads can be a bit finicky at times when run off a GFCI. Sometimes there is no problem and they work forever with no problem, other times there could be a high resistance short and you will experience nuisance tripping.

I guess the question is whether the stove has a 3 wire or 4 wire feed. If it's a 3 wire, you need to add an outlet anyway. If it's a four wire, then you could try a GFCI breaker on the stove to see if it works, then add an outlet if necessary.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for the reply nm999.

It is 3 wire so as I initially assumed I would have to switch to 4 wire. Now the million dollar question is:

Since this house has such old electrical can I run a separate ground strap straight to where some of the other grounds attach to the water pipes? Reality is that I would be safer doing this than just having 3 wire anyway so I understand it may not be what code calls for but it seems like the easiest way to switch over to a 4 wire connection. I would do this because in that case I would not have to run new rope back to the breaker box. Even though it would be incredibly easy to do in this house as everything is completely exposed. I am simply trying to do this in a safe way for a short time period and removing what I did before I leave so that no one has to deal with code issues or other safety factors due to unconventional wiring.

I think I will end up doing this in this particular house since I could remove the GFCI breaker when I leave and put back the original and then install the breaker where I end up moving to.

I am certainly not even close to an electrician, but I have been researching my own electric build, and here are a few observations.

1) The wire gauge needed is dictated by the circuit breaker that is protecting the wire. If you have a 50 amp breaker, I believe you need 6 gauge, but I know 10 gauge is not sufficient.

2) If you only have 3 wires (no ground), you can wire a $49 Home Depot spa panel (3 wires in, 4 wires out) to power your brewery. P-J has posted schematics for this many times. The spa panel will give you your GFCI, and is generally much cheaper than a GFCI breaker (go figure). You can avoid introducing a new variable to the wiring for your current stove. You will be limited to 240V, though, and cannot try to split off 120V by using a hot and the neutral.

Somebody more knowledgeable than I will likely chime in, but this seems like the simplest way to go in a location that you expect to move out of soon.

read this thread.

rollinred said:

Even though it would be incredibly easy to do in this house as everything is completely exposed.

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If it's easy enough then just do it right and be done with it.

jeffmeh said:

1) The wire gauge needed is dictated by the circuit breaker that is protecting the wire. If you have a 50 amp breaker, I believe you need 6 gauge, but I know 10 gauge is not sufficient.

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A 5500W element would need 10AWG wire and a 30A breaker.

jeffmeh said:

2) If you only have 3 wires (no ground), you can wire a $49 Home Depot spa panel (3 wires in, 4 wires out) to power your brewery.

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There still won't be a proper equipment ground. If the neutral wire feeding the spa box was ever compromised then the current would look for another path to ground.

nm999 said:

There still won't be a proper equipment ground. If the neutral wire feeding the spa box was ever compromised then the current would look for another path to ground.

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???? Please explain that. I have no idea where you are going with this idea.

Thanks.

P-J

jeffmeh said:

...
2) If you only have 3 wires (no ground), you can wire a $49 Home Depot spa panel (3 wires in, 4 wires out) to power your brewery. P-J has posted schematics for this many times. The spa panel will give you your GFCI, and is generally much cheaper than a GFCI breaker (go figure). You can avoid introducing a new variable to the wiring for your current stove. You will be limited to 240V, though, and cannot try to split off 120V by using a hot and the neutral.
...

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I just wanted to chime in with this. Your point (underlined) is not quite true. Just a little info on this: It is entirely dependent on when the wiring was done as it applies to the NEC code being the "Judge". Any circuit terminated in an outlet can be (more or less) detailed to your requirement. (HEY, keep it within reason.!)

With the circuit you mention (pre mid 1995?) , the Spa Panel allows one to generate a seperate neutral and ground circuit. With that said, 120V could & would be available along with the 240V.

P-J

nm999 said:

A 5500W element would need 10AWG wire and a 30A breaker.



There still won't be a proper equipment ground. If the neutral wire feeding the spa box was ever compromised then the current would look for another path to ground.

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Agreed, if a 30A breaker then 10AWG wire. If he already has a 50A breaker then 6AWG, right?

The spa panel doesn't solve the 3-wire versus 4-wire 240V issue. But 3-wire 240V is grandfathered by code, and the spa panel is a way to get a GFCI which turns out for no obvious reason to be much less expensive than a new GFCI breaker. With what I am planning, I need a new 30 amp breaker. A GFCI breaker is around $100, and a regular one is $10. The GE GFCI spa panel at Home Depot is $49. I am going to run 4 wires from the breaker to the spa panel (my existing wiring is 12/3), but if I already had the 30A breaker with 10/3 (or 10/2 + ground) I could at least get a GFCI from the spa panel, without running 10/4 (or 10/3 + ground) from the breaker.

I do agree with your "do it right" sentiment, but if I were renting and already had a 30A breaker with 10/3 AWG, I might just go with the spa panel for a GFCI. As it is, I'm going with the spa panel because it is a much less expensive way to get a GFCI, and it is a somewhat portable GFCI at that.

Again, I am no expert here, but this is my understanding. Since P-J has chimed in, I'm certain from reading his posts that he can correct me if I mis-stated anything.

And it looks like P-J and I cross-posted, and one has ameliorated the 3-wire vs. 4-wire problem through the spa panel (although not quite as well as only bonding neutral to ground at the main panel) and can run a 120V circuit. I did not understand that. Thanks.

jeffmeh said:

Agreed, if a 30A breaker then 10AWG wire. If he already has a 50A breaker then 6AWG, right?

The spa panel doesn't solve the 3-wire versus 4-wire 240V issue. But 3-wire 240V is grandfathered by code, and the spa panel is a way to get a GFCI which turns out for no obvious reason to be much less expensive than a new GFCI breaker. With what I am planning, I need a new 30 amp breaker. A GFCI breaker is around $100, and a regular one is $10. The GE GFCI spa panel at Home Depot is $49. I am going to run 4 wires from the breaker to the spa panel (my existing wiring is 12/3), but if I already had the 30A breaker with 10/3 (or 10/2 + ground) I could at least get a GFCI from the spa panel, without running 10/4 (or 10/3 + ground) from the breaker.

I do agree with your "do it right" sentiment, but if I were renting and already had a 30A breaker with 10/3 AWG, I might just go with the spa panel for a GFCI. As it is, I'm going with the spa panel because it is a much less expensive way to get a GFCI, and it is a somewhat portable GFCI at that.

Again, I am no expert here, but this is my understanding. Since P-J has chimed in, I'm certain from reading his posts that he can correct me if I mis-stated anything.

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I know that you and PJ crossed paths on posting here but your post has more in it that I question.

I am at the point in which I know for sure i am simply going to ground to the nearest pipe that already has a ground on it. I know this is not the proper way to do things but it is very much as safe for the personal user who is capable enough to check his wiring before brewing.

What I don't understand is why you would say that a 50a breaker needs 6ga wire. I know for sure that the wire size is based upon what amperage you will actually draw on the circuit. 10ga is enough for what I intend to use as far as the codes I have seen.

I will be looking in to this spa gfci as I will be moving at some point and this appears to be a good option. PJ, I do need to ask why you were questioning the person who said that it would not provide a ground. I know that neutral is ground and a true ground is simply a redundant source of protection but why is it that you actively state that 3 wire is fine.


I still have a lot more thought to put in to this. I am enthusiastic about you quiters getting help but I have had enough.

rollinred said:

What I don't understand is why you would say that a 50a breaker needs 6ga wire. I know for sure that the wire size is based upon what amperage you will actually draw on the circuit. 10ga is enough for what I intend to use as far as the codes I have seen.

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Again, I am no electrician, but this seems critical.

The breaker's purpose is to protect the wire. If the current draw exceeds the wire's capacity the breaker trips before the wire catches fire. If your 30A device wired with 10 AWG has a short-circuit and goes into an overcurrent situation, your 50A breaker isn't going to provide sufficient protection and you could have a fire.

You may expect to draw 30A, but you cannot guarantee that in a fail condition you do not draw more than 30A.

rollinred said:

What I don't understand is why you would say that a 50a breaker needs 6ga wire. I know for sure that the wire size is based upon what amperage you will actually draw on the circuit. 10ga is enough for what I intend to use as far as the codes I have seen.

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No, sorry, but you are incorrect. If the breaker is 50A, then EVERYTHING in the circuit must be rated for 50A. Otherwise if you have an overload and are pulling, say, 40A then you have a situation where the breaker doesn't trip, you have overheated wires, and a burned-down house. If you know for certain that your load is less than 30A, and you wish to use 10ga wire, then you must use a 30A breaker.

jeffmeh said:

2) If you only have 3 wires (no ground), you can wire a $49 Home Depot spa panel (3 wires in, 4 wires out) to power your brewery. P-J has posted schematics for this many times. The spa panel will give you your GFCI, and is generally much cheaper than a GFCI breaker (go figure). You can avoid introducing a new variable to the wiring for your current stove. You will be limited to 240V, though, and cannot try to split off 120V by using a hot and the neutral.

Click to expand...

If you do that, you still have no ground. You may have a ground bar in the spa panel, but it is not connected to anything.

nm999 said:

There still won't be a proper equipment ground. If the neutral wire feeding the spa box was ever compromised then the current would look for another path to ground.

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Bingo. This guy has been trying to save your lives. listen to him.

Bernie Brewer said:

No, sorry, but you are incorrect. If the breaker is 50A, then EVERYTHING in the circuit must be rated for 50A. Otherwise if you have an overload and are pulling, say, 40A then you have a situation where the breaker doesn't trip, you have overheated wires, and a burned-down house. If you know for certain that your load is less than 30A, and you wish to use 10ga wire, then you must use a 30A breaker.

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Bernie,

I apologize as I had my "Ugly's" book in front of me and read it wrong, I somehow looked at the 30a service. 50A at 45ft would need 6ga wire.

The point doesn't really matter regardless since the circuit is already wired. I am not wiring a new 50a service. Everything is already there just that it has no ground. If I do this I will be wiring in a ground of some form.

I really like the idea of using that spa disconnect as it would offer a more "portable" solution to the GFCI issue at a much reduced cost than it would be to get a GFCI breaker.

The only downfall I now have is that I may not be able to brew outside because making a 25ft extension cord out of 6ga wire is going to be cost prohibitive since I will not live in this place for much longer. I hope to be out of here in two years and brewing inside exclusively would be a drawback for me. The only other option I see is using the 30a service from the clothes dryer since it would be a cheaper option for extension cord. Not only because of wire gauge but also because it is equidistant from the kitchen to the front porch.

But of course the element size would need to be reduced and heat up times would go up.

Rollinred, the 30 amp dryer outlet will work great for one 5500W element at a time. That's what I'm using here:https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/suggestions-controller-249400/index4.html

jsguitar said:

Rollinred, the 30 amp dryer outlet will work great for one 5500W element at a time. That's what I'm using here:https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/suggestions-controller-249400/index4.html

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I think this might be the route I go because it will be a more practical temporary solution. How fast does the 5500 heat? I will be heating a maximum of 9 gallons at a time.

I haven't timed it when brewing because I usually drink some coffee and grind my grain while it's heating, but in my thread I noted that it took about eight minutes to heat 6 gallons of room temp water to 150 degrees. I'd guess you'd be looking at around fifteen minutes. It's faster than my propane set up, but ymmv. All I can say is that I love it.

rollinred said:

The point doesn't really matter regardless since the circuit is already wired. I am not wiring a new 50a service. Everything is already there just that it has no ground. If I do this I will be wiring in a ground of some form.

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That is what I can't get my mind wrapped around. How are you going to use that receptacle and have a ground at the same time? There is no ground in it.

jsguitar said:

I haven't timed it when brewing because I usually drink some coffee and grind my grain while it's heating, but in my thread I noted that it took about eight minutes to heat 6 gallons of room temp water to 150 degrees. I'd guess you'd be looking at around fifteen minutes. It's faster than my propane set up, but ymmv. All I can say is that I love it.

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That is a LOT faster than my propane would work. Not to mention I would save myself at least $3-4 each batch. It takes a lot of propane for me to reach temps. Now I just have to find what way might fit my budget.

jsguitar said:

I haven't timed it when brewing because I usually drink some coffee and grind my grain while it's heating, but in my thread I noted that it took about eight minutes to heat 6 gallons of room temp water to 150 degrees. I'd guess you'd be looking at around fifteen minutes. It's faster than my propane set up, but ymmv. All I can say is that I love it.

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Wait- what?? Back up the party bus! You drink COFFEE when you brew? SHAME on you!!!!!!!

Bernie Brewer said:

Wait- what?? Back up the party bus! You drink COFFEE when you brew? SHAME on you!!!!!!!

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uhhhhh.......I meant coffee STOUT. Yeah, that's the ticket.

(where's the sweating brow emicon!)

Bernie Brewer said:

That is what I can't get my mind wrapped around. How are you going to use that receptacle and have a ground at the same time? There is no ground in it.

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I don't intend to use that particular receptacle. I will use the current wiring but add a ground with a new 4 wire receptacle. I would just run the ground either back to the box or to the pipe that my hot water heater is grounded to. Hell, with how basic this house is I could actually run it to the ground rod.

I am looking for two things out of this little adventure:

1) Something that will be safe and hopefully support a single 5500w element.
2) Not waste my money by needing to upgrade when I switch to a double 5500w element and 2 pump setup.

I am thinking that a 30a breaker may be enough with the research I have done tonight. I do not intend to run both elements at the same time and would only ever run one pump with an element if I decided to build a herms rig.

All of this is just a crap shoot for me mainly because I am in a rented house and I can not spend money on changing the electrical beyond a few basics. That is why I was interested in using the 50a stove receptacle in the first place since I could overbuild for what I need now in prep for the future. Reality is that in an electric system this is pretty much impossible from what I can gather.

Upon further reading it is clear that a 30 amp circuit would be the ticket for me as is since I won't have to mess with wiring. If I ever decided to switch to 50a service at a new place I would only be out a power cord.

So here is where I am, maybe P-J has a diagram saved that will help me with getting the parts together.

I want a single PID-SSR controlling 1 5500w element. I would also like a lighted switch for element on, a safety shut off, and a float switch in the kettle. Eventually I will move to having another element and at least one pump. I will be leaving room in the box to control these.

I will also be using the spa panel for the GFCI as it seems to be the best option.


The other question I had is regarding the temp sensor in the kettle. From what I gather the RTD's are the way to go. Will a 2" RTD from Auber be a good choice?


Edit: one more question. How deep is the the Auber 2352? I have a box that I will call perks of the job that I think will be a fantastic piece.

Thanks for all the help you guys have given.

rollinred said:

I don't intend to use that particular receptacle. I will use the current wiring but add a ground with a new 4 wire receptacle. I would just run the ground either back to the box or to the pipe that my hot water heater is grounded to. Hell, with how basic this house is I could actually run it to the ground rod.

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I would feel best if you ran your ground to the breaker box. A water pipe is not an acceptable ground.

Bernie Brewer said:

I would feel best if you ran your ground to the breaker box. A water pipe is not an acceptable ground.

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Hey Bernie, I really appreciate your help in this planning phase. First off, I understand you are just trying to advocate the safety in all forms especially when putting safety to the side in lieu of saving a few dollars. This articular water pipe is actually grounded back to the electrical box through a couple of different straps. Sure, it is not at all to current code but it was something that was done probably 30 years ago when it was still a fuse panel. They wanted to ground a couple of outlets and went to the pipe. When this house was remodeled they switched to a breaker box and grounded that pipe back to the box. Not to mention that pipe is the one that runs to the well, which goes through over 200 yards of soil before stopping. Yeah I know, it wouldn't make sense to someone that hasn't seen it but that pipe is actually probably the best ground in the entire house.


Last, I have decided against doing the 50 amp as you may notice in the last two posts. It looks very feasible for me to use a 30 amp circuit for what I want. In the remodel and extra area was added to the house that has a 4 wire dryer connection. This sounds like the perfect option for me to get in to electric brewing. But I did have a few questions about that which were in my previous posts.

Again, thanks everyone for the help. I am certainly getting much better ideas from your responses.

Here is the control box that I am lucky enough to get free of charge. It is a component panel for a commercial conveyor dishwasher. One of the perks of working for a food service company. I also have stainless steel scrap available whenever I need it.

The box is 12" tall, 10" wide, and 7" Deep. Should be perfect for what I want. Comes with a terminal block and 3 fuse holders too!

Grounding to pipes is a long and glorious tradition. When I used to work in laboratories we actually used the plumbing ground as our ground reference rather than the building ground. It might not be pretty and I have no idea if it's code but there's nothing wrong with it electrically.

If you just need a "temp" ground because you are renting, you could just do the same as a house ground. The cost may be prohibitive, but it is able to be taken with you when you leave. Take these specs with a grain of salt as I have not been a house electrician since 1995. But use a solid core 6# wire, not braided, connected to a solid copper bar driven some distance into the ground.

From what you are describing, this could be a legal workaround and dead safe. (Bad choice of words)

BetterSense said:

Grounding to pipes is a long and glorious tradition. When I used to work in laboratories we actually used the plumbing ground as our ground reference rather than the building ground. It might not be pretty and I have no idea if it's code but there's nothing wrong with it electrically.

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What is funny is that this pipe actually feeds a garage and 3 other buildings. Like I mentioned before it goes through well over 200 yards of soil distributing water to each of these places.... This pipe is grounded better than any ground in an electrical box you find.

But this point is completely irreverent since I forgot about using the 30amp dryer outlet that would be more convenient.

I hot you guys get a chance to see the other questions I had regarding wiring, PID depth, and such. I hate to be the guy that complains about the advice I am getting but really the issue of the ground wire is no longer present because I have changed my mind and will be using the 30a dryer outlet.

Again thanks to everyone that is helping with this.