does anyone have any of the 110 transformers for sale?
Does anyone know: overseas, is a single phase 220vac? Or do they use two legs like US?
fright101 said:Oh..forgot to mention..Maybe ask one of the nerds for a laptop power supply in the same 12v range..I think it will work...At least that is what I am going to do
So my questions is, what fan do I need for my fridge to re-circulate the air? I feel comfortable wiring, and the schematics and whatnot, I just need help finding the fan. Can I just take the relay to a computer repair shop, ask for a muffin fan, and voila, I can buy it and wire it up without issue? Any help would be greatly appreciated!
Oh..forgot to mention..Maybe ask one of the nerds for a laptop power supply in the same 12v range..I think it will work...At least that is what I am going to do
cwi said:A standard wall wart is a big enough energy waster. Using a laptop supply would probably burn more power than the keezer does. Especially if it always on which I think is how the relay was wired in the example, but for sure if the fan was wired to always run.
Just feel the heat coming off a wall wart or laptop power supply. The wall warts get hot even when not powering anything. The laptops supplies don't get that hot when idling, but when powering something it seems like more heat than juice is being made. Best not to stash either one inside the keezer just to get that "clean" look.
Um, not really. The energy used will generally be the exact same. The only way a laptop charger would by any different would be if you compared it to a wall wart that happens to be UNDERPOWERED for the task.
You seem to misunderstand how power consumption is determined. To put it simply, the supply determines the voltage provided, and the load determines the amperage used. With that in mind, your post is incorrect because the main difference between a wall wart and a laptop charger (suitable for powering a PC fan) is the amperage; the voltage would be the same.
And so there you have it - feel free to use whatever you want, because energy usage will be virtually the same. The only way you can possibly have a laptop charger of the same voltage use so much energy is if you have it powering something that draws more amps... like an actual laptop! And in such a case, obviously the adapter will start feeling pretty hot. But even with a device drawing maximum power from the charger (around maybe 60-90 watts, depending on the model... WAY more power than PC fans use), it actually still uses quite a bit less power than a chest freezer - assuming, of course, that they're running for the same amount of time (eg, both are plugged into your temp controller).
Um, I live in a place called reality. You seem to live in some fantastical place where I=VR even across a series of crappy 19th century technology based transformers. That heat being put out by the adapter doesn't come from some star trek matter-anti-matter reactor.
I case I need to illucidate you, wall warts are less sophisticated than a laptop adapter and have a current drain even with nothing attached. It has no means to do mechanical work, so guess where all the current goes- heat. When powering something, the heat output is usually proportional to the load, and can be as much as the load.
Laptop adapters seem to have some intelligence, and when not powering anything they shut down. When powering almost anything, most revert to basic wall wart technology and produce almost as much heat as power out.
Opposite of your fantasy physics and logic, since laptop chargers have a much larger capacity, they also waste more for low power outputs. These type of things almost always have sweet spot where they are most efficient. They also usually get more efficient closer to the top of their range, so your logic is almost perfectly backwards- congratulations.
If a laptop adapter is used to provide 3 watts for a fan, it can consume as much as 15 watts, continuously. That is very close the the power consumption of a keezer in fermentation temp ranges. Since not all the power consumption of a keezer goes to removing heat, except maybe in your fantastical world, the heat input of the adaptor would be very close to the heat rejected by the freezer.
So there you have it. If you don't believe me, just read the power input and power output rating of any adapter, then stare at your equations and try to figure out where all that mystery power loss is going. Or, you could just touch it when it is powering something, and it becomes very apparent- at least to me. Even better, spend 4+ years and a $100k and get an electrical engineering degree before acting like a know it all so that you actually make some sense.
I am curious as to why anyone is even putting a fan in their keezer? I built mine so that I would have an option to add it if needed...but after using it for several weeks now haven't seen any need to add one and do not intend to...
Can someone share the reasoning behind using a muffin fan?
Just for ****s and grins, if you don't want to use one of these power hungry beasts that produce volumes of heat. Then don't..Your choice..I have wall warts and 99% of them are under 12v. (as most laptop power supplies are over 12v- But I have one that is 12v) Hrmm..What other option do I have? PC power supply from a tower? Nah....Sucks too much juice and is far too large for where, when and how I am going to use it. Thus, the laptop power supply..It's not a nuclear reactor..It's not pulling huge amperage..It will suffice for my purposes.
I would normally say that you can cite a source for your information..But I just don't care enuff to read it anyway.
By the way..Do you always post with so much venom?
1. Temperature destratification- which is an issue in chest freezers.
2. Increased thermal transfer, especially for active fermentations.
3. Less cycling since the fan (generally) distrubutes the heat (cold) preventing the sensor from hitting the set point before the other thermal masses which are usually larger than the mass the sensor is in/on.
4. Humidity. It can help resolve mild humidity issues.
5. Keeps faucets colder due to both decreased temp stratification and increased heat (cold) transfer to the shanks.
cwi said:Um, I live in a place called reality. You seem to live in some fantastical place where I=VR even across a series of crappy 19th century technology based transformers. That heat being put out by the adapter doesn't come from some star trek matter-anti-matter reactor.
I case I need to illucidate you, wall warts are less sophisticated than a laptop adapter and have a current drain even with nothing attached. It has no means to do mechanical work, so guess where all the current goes- heat. When powering something, the heat output is usually proportional to the load, and can be as much as the load.
Laptop adapters seem to have some intelligence, and when not powering anything they shut down. When powering almost anything, most revert to basic wall wart technology and produce almost as much heat as power out.
Opposite of your fantasy physics and logic, since laptop chargers have a much larger capacity, they also waste more for low power outputs. These types of things almost always have sweet spot where they are most efficient. They also usually get more efficient closer to the top of their range, so your logic is almost perfectly backwards- congratulations.
If a older laptop adapter is used to provide 3 watts for a fan, it can consume as much as 15 watts, continuously. That is very close the the power consumption of a keezer in fermentation temp ranges. Since not all the power consumption of a keezer goes to removing heat, except maybe in your fantastical world, the heat input of the adaptor would be very close to the heat rejected by the freezer. If you put the adaptor inside the keezer, the power input to the freezer is now doubled for the same temp, magically, not to mention ~10 watts wasted by the adaptor. I could write it out using some fancy equations if it would make more sense to you.
So there you have it. If you don't believe me, just read the power input and power output rating of any adapter, then stare at your equations and try to figure out where all that mystery power loss is going. Or, you could just touch it when it is powering something, and it becomes very apparent- at least to me. Even better, spend 4+ years and a $100k and get an electrical engineering degree before acting like a know it all so that you actually make some sense.
cwi said:Um, I live in a place called reality. You seem to live in some fantastical place where I=VR even across a series of crappy 19th century technology based transformers. That heat being put out by the adapter doesn't come from some star trek matter-anti-matter reactor.
I case I need to illucidate you, wall warts are less sophisticated than a laptop adapter and have a current drain even with nothing attached. It has no means to do mechanical work, so guess where all the current goes- heat. When powering something, the heat output is usually proportional to the load, and can be as much as the load.
Laptop adapters seem to have some intelligence, and when not powering anything they shut down. When powering almost anything, most revert to basic wall wart technology and produce almost as much heat as power out.
Opposite of your fantasy physics and logic, since laptop chargers have a much larger capacity, they also waste more for low power outputs. These types of things almost always have sweet spot where they are most efficient. They also usually get more efficient closer to the top of their range, so your logic is almost perfectly backwards- congratulations.
If a older laptop adapter is used to provide 3 watts for a fan, it can consume as much as 15 watts, continuously. That is very close the the power consumption of a keezer in fermentation temp ranges. Since not all the power consumption of a keezer goes to removing heat, except maybe in your fantastical world, the heat input of the adaptor would be very close to the heat rejected by the freezer. If you put the adaptor inside the keezer, the power input to the freezer is now doubled for the same temp, magically, not to mention ~10 watts wasted by the adaptor. I could write it out using some fancy equations if it would make more sense to you.
So there you have it. If you don't believe me, just read the power input and power output rating of any adapter, then stare at your equations and try to figure out where all that mystery power loss is going. Or, you could just touch it when it is powering something, and it becomes very apparent- at least to me. Even better, spend 4+ years and a $100k and get an electrical engineering degree before acting like a know it all so that you actually make some sense.
1. Temperature destratification- which is an issue in chest freezers.
2. Increased thermal transfer, especially for active fermentations.
3. Less cycling since the fan (generally) distrubutes the heat (cold) preventing the sensor from hitting the set point before the other thermal masses which are usually larger than the mass the sensor is in/on.
4. Humidity. It can help resolve mild humidity issues.
5. Keeps faucets colder due to both decreased temp stratification and increased heat (cold) transfer to the shanks.
You misunderstanding something isn't what makes me right, me being right makes me right. And, I would say you are the one making bad assumptions.So I really misunderstood where your bad assumptions were coming from. Doesn't make you right.
Virtually 100% efficient? They are not even close, more like 50%, especially a wall wart or old laptop adapter under a 2% load. Which is what I stated in my original post- almost as much heat as juice. Whose assumptions are bad?I know these things aren't 100% efficient - which is why I used the word "virtually" rather than "exactly",
Um, not really. The energy used will generally be the exact same. The only way a laptop charger would by any different would be if you compared it to a wall wart that happens to be UNDERPOWERED for the task.
There are probably more, I didn't bother finding all of them.And since they are going to supply the exact same amount of power, they are going to USE the same amount of power.
I don't need to feel it, except maybe in your "virtual" world. In my world, I can predict the loss using physics.Well clearly you've felt a laptop charger powering a laptop. And yes, it gets pretty hot. Have you ever felt a laptop charger powering a PC fan? Obviously not, you've already written it off.
The % loss to heat doesn't go away just because it is at a low draw, and in reality it actually gets worse. I stated this in my previous response as well as how your assumption was exactly the opposite and incorrect.I have... I use one for my stirplate. And I can tell you right now that the brick doesn't produce any appreciable heat. I know these things aren't 100% efficient - which is why I used the word "virtually" rather than "exactly", but the temperature increase is so low that it's hard to tell if you're really feeling any warmth at all.
I believe the number I gave was 15 watts total (fan+heat), and I just made that up, so it would only be ~12W of heat, which is probably a bit high since it means ~20% eff, but quite possible depending on the adapter. 5 watts would be almost imperceptible, based on your own evidence, since that is probably close to the heat loss for the adapter used on your stir plate. So what was your point?Do you have any idea what 15W of heat spread over that brick would feel like? 20W? You probably do, actually, since it's not hard to have something to compare it to. And I can assure you it comes nowhere close to any of those.
I have seen no end to the lengths people go to make things look "cleaner". I am quite certain someone out there has placed both the fan AND adapter in the keezer. It is not a massive waste of power or anything, but being wasteful just for looks and also getting worse temp control seems a bit much.And sure, if you stick the brick in the freezer, it's going to warm up things a tiny bit. The question is... why would you need to even do that? I haven't seen many (if any) builds that provide receptacles on the inside of the freezer, so the cord is going to have to be on the outside anyways. If the build DOES have outlets on the inside... then I'll concede that it's probably not the best idea for them.
A chest freezer consumes less than 40W on average, and that is for freezer temps. For maintaining ferm temps, which is the case I stated previously, that number should be less than 20W. That is consumed power. The COP of the freezer would probably be < 1 for this type of use, so less than 20W is being exhausted from the freezer.But even regardless of all this... your assertion that you might even exceed the power consumption of a chest freezer is complete and utter nonsense. I suggest you take a look at some typical specs again, it's just not even close.
I suggest you speak about things you of which you are more knowledgeable, or argue with someone less knowledgeable.I suggest you take a look at some typical specs again, it's just not even close.
Uh... cwl, bud. The whole point of your initial post was that a laptop charger would be so much less efficient than a wall wart that it wouldn't be worth using, which is what I disagreed with, and your recent post has seemed to totally let go of that fact, arguing God-knows-what this time.
With this in mind, go back and rewrite some sort of relevance into your novel.
cwi
You really feel the need to be right. I can tell this by the wall of text that you have left on several occasions to assert your superiority.In the grand scheme of things, people are going to be wrong, but they seem to get a whole lot done without spending 100k on a EE degree.
To this end, welcome to my ignore list. You are the first!!
Now I can get back to viewing the thread.
Have a nice day.
fact of the matter is why would you rent a 18 wheeler to move a small lawn mower when a pick up truck works just fine. yeah the 18 wheeler can do it, but why.
^ looks great man! Nicely done.
That makes sense, but the guy was telling someone else to go find an 18 wheeler to use because that's what he is doing since he already had one sitting around.Cuz you have a free 18 wheeler sitting around doing nothing?
If you want to get the mods involved, have them make a wiki/sticky entry as the first post where the vital info can be easily located. Not sure what the forum tools used here allow, but I have seen it elsewhere.I think a mod needs to come in here and take out the trash to be honest.
cwi said:That makes sense, but the guy was telling someone else to go find an 18 wheeler to use because that's what he is doing since he already had one sitting around.
That exchange was pretty useless, but at least some newbie won't be running around asking geeks for some rare 12V laptop supply to use, or worse burning his fan up with a more common 20V one.
Ah... well I can agree with this. I wasn't suggesting that people go out of their way specifically to find a laptop charger.
That would provide some good data, but it is a small sample. There is a lot of variability among supplies. If you are using a modern (switching) 5W wall wart, it will almost surely have less total draw than a modern 150W laptop brick (also switching) used at <5% capacity. The older laptop bricks and linear wall warts are all over the map on efficiency.All one has to do is measure the draw of both types of adapters while running the exact same fan at 12V, and compare them.
And so, not so much to continue the argument as to satisfy my own curiosity and perhaps provide the forum with some useful data, that's exactly what I'm going to do. Compare the actual real-world numbers, and everything else becomes utterly meaningless.
I went with a 6X6X4 utility box from Lowes. I wanted some airspace because the little unit got pretty warm while i was testing it.
I also grabbed a mono audio headphone plug and jack from radio shack. wired the probe up with those so i can remove it if necessary.
Yeah, I realize that. Mine would both be VERY modern examples - both manufactured in 2011 (purchased weeks apart) and both even have a voltage selector - so it should at least give a realistic picture.
I'm not sure how easy it would be to find an older laptop adapter that'll do 12V though (as I believe that's really only used for netbooks) so in practical terms I doubt it matters much anyways.
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