Help! Brewing Failures again and again

here's where I was 8 months ago after about 5-6 brews (only one was good):
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/need-experienced-brewer-taste-my-beer-155611/

I know this is super long but read on if you can.

Got some good responses back then. Implemented many changes. Better Bottle, strict temperature control, new hoses, changed my supplier for ingredients, and the list goes on. I isolated as many variables as possible down to the using/not using the wort chiller just to make sure it wasn't a contributor. haven't been to a homebrew club either.

The first batch after the new fermenter was good, an extract porter with liquid yeast.

Fast forward today. Beer still sucks. I've brewed four times since. Porter was good though it did develop some bad burp problems over a month or so. Samuel Smith Winter Welcome Clone still conditioning in bottles. I've had a couple over the months. A bit of alchohol bite but actually tasted pretty good. ESB was terrible. Not drinkable (see taste below). Kolsch, just opened a bottle after three weeks conditioning. Crap. So my current batting average is now 2 for 9. SO FRUSTRATING!

The homebrewing mantra seems to be just wait it will get better. Believe me I've done that on these brews. I've come to know that when the flavor I'm tasting is present, it's just NOT going to go away. It gets worse. Other than the porter, just about EVERY beer I've brewed tastes the same (some horrid stale, plastic, spiced flavor that I can't describe) AND they all end up the same color.

I brewed and bottled this Kolsch with the utmost care and attention to detail. It was the right color going into the botttles, tasted good, and now three weeks later, bad. The ESB was bad out of the bottling bucket. Kolsch was good out of the secondary (7 primary approx 62-64 degrees with fluctuation due to swamp cooler, 4 weeks secondary at 42 degrees) It now has the aforementioned bad taste developing heavily now.

To the point now with a possible list of problems. Please help isolate:

1. I don't know how but I guess sanitation is suspect. Using OxyClean (with a good rinse) after a brew and sanitizing EVERYTHING with StarSan. I don't really know what else i can do in this area. Though I have not replaced my bottling wand. Many of my beers have had this taste and color before going into bottles so it's not there

2. Leaving too much sanitizer in fermenter when racking. i of course try to get all liquid out and just leave foam. Is it possible StarSan can contribute to off-flavors even if diluted properly? i don't think so

3. LME/DME argument. Brewing partial boils with LME (possibly too old at that) I've read the debate on that combo leading to "extract twang". I order supplies and it may be a month or longer before I can use them but I keep them cold and well preserved. I've read extensively on extract twang (reality or myth aside) but it's always described as a sweet flavor. this is not sweet, it's nasty. Just bad. Burps are bad too. The Sam Smith clone was brewed with DME not LME and doesn't seem to exhibit the same off flavors after months in bottles. Could this really all come down to an LME issue?

partial boil/full boil: I cannot justify buying a bigger stainless pot to do full boils (or anything else expensive) till I find out where I'm going wrong so I start with a 4 gallon brew, end up with 3 after boil. Add 2.25 gallons water.

I've used spring water, boiled tap water, regular tap water. Doesn't make a difference here. Our water is good. Selected as the best drinking water in the Southeast in 2008. I've looked at the limited amount of water profile data they have available. Nothing's off according to Palmer's book.

4. Thought it could be tannins from steeping grains. Did not use any with the Kolsch, straight extract brew, didn't help so I've eliminated that.

5. Starters. Switched from dry to liquid. have a stir plate and 2L flask for starters. Doesn't seem to be brain surgery. I've followed directions and they've gone well. Haven't checked OG on starters but I'm using the proper ratio of DME to H20. I used the Porter's washed yeast on the ESB and questioned my starter a bit https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/starter-question-180824/ but it ended up finishing well and I used it. Mistake maybe.

6. Only other thing I can think of is the old "house bug" thing. I thought that could be cured with new hoses, fermenter, etc. Don't know what you do about that other than brew and ferment somewhere else. Not really feasible.

I'm sure there are many details not posted here but the bottom line is I don't know where to turn folks. I'm wasting money and A LOT of time on these brews. I'm so close to posting all my stuff on craigslist and just going back to getting ripped off on commercial beer. At least I can drink the stuff!

Any and all help so much appreciated.

Damian

Stop before you hurt yourself. I suggest you hook up with a local home brew club and let them taste it. Maybe someone will come over and observe what you are doing.

Can I suggest something? Just brew some straight up pale ales or other no nonsense ales until you get it right. I'm AG but I'd say get some lme, a bit of medium me, some decent yeast, boil, put in hops and add a user friendly yeast like WLP 005, wait two weeks, bottle. It seems to me like you're just getting ahead of yourself. I'm a newbie, only started brewing this season, and I've done 3 pale ales, one stout and one american ale. They've all turned out awesome (well, the american ale kinda sucked but that was my fault, too small hop bags). Seriously, you can't f-up a basic pale ale.

BTW, with the same money you spent on that pump, wort chiller and stir plate, you could have bought a ghetto yet working AG system like what I have. Too late now, but might serve as a fyi for others.

badmajon said:

Can I suggest something? Just brew some straight up pale ales or other no nonsense ales until you get it right. I'm AG but I'd say get some lme, a bit of medium me, some decent yeast, boil, put in hops and add a user friendly yeast like WLP 005, wait two weeks, bottle. It seems to me like you're just getting ahead of yourself. I'm a newbie, only started brewing this season, and I've done 3 pale ales, one stout and one american ale. They've all turned out awesome (well, the american ale kinda sucked but that was my fault, too small hop bags). Seriously, you can't f-up a basic pale ale.

BTW, with the same money you spent on that pump, wort chiller and stir plate, you could have bought a ghetto yet working AG system like what I have. Too late now, but might serve as a fyi for others.

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I agree with this. Sorry you are having hard time. It really should not be so frustrating. Go get some basic kits and I would not use oxy clean. I dont know about that stuff but I use c brite or another used for home brewing. I would just say get back to basics man. I have not even brewed as much as you but the brews I have done have come out fantastic! Try and keep things simple.

The flavors sound like Phenol to me...

Does your tap water have any Chlorine in it? Have you been using bleach anywhere in your cleaning? I see regular tap water and boiled tap water but I am wondering if you have used a charcoal filter (like Britta) to remove any chlorine in the water...

And for a real stretch, what types of yeast have you used in your batches? Have they all been different or have you used a certain yeast in more than one batch?

I also agree with Brewham, get with a local homebrew club and have someone come over and brew with you. They may see something small that is making a huge difference. That additional set of eyes may be just what you need.

What types of kits are you using? I'm a huge fan of the Brewer's Best kits - I did 4 or 5 of them, and after those I felt I was more than prepared to get into getting my own ingredients to brew other beers (or modifying their recipe so ti's cheaper

Another good option/resource is Charlie Papazian's book. I had that right next to me while doing my first brew, and I referred to it while going through my kit recipe and it helped answer the questions the Brewers Best kit didn't.

Brewing good beer (for me) comes down to:

-fresh ingredients
-obsessive/compulsive cleaning and sanitization
-strict temperature control
-proper pitching rates
-good recipe formulation
-little bit of luck

I've only ever dumped out a couple batches, and I've brewed many more batches that were just 'OK.' In general, my beers DID greatly improve when I went to all-grain. But, I also made a lot of general process changes around that time, too, such as paying more attention to temperature and yeast starters, as well as doing full-wort boils.

I suggest you find a local brew club or a brew buddy to brew with - you could be overlooking something extremely simple. I would also highly recommend you move to full-wort boils. A large enough kettle needn't be expensive - certainly not the price of 7 out of 9 bad extract batches of beer! You ought to be able to find a 30-40qt aluminum pot from a restaurant supply shop or online for around 40 bucks.

The flavors you're describing sound exactly like chlorophenols to me, which are created when the yeast react with chlorine or chloramine. They have a very low taste threshold, so it doesn't take much at all. When you did the batch with bottled spring water, did you use the spring water for rinsing and mixing sanitizer both on brew day and bottling day? If not, I'd guess your water is the culprit.

Edit-
I looked up the Macon water report for 09. It looks like the water is treated with both chlorine and chlorine dioxide. The spring water you bought was most likely just local water that had been filtered, and still may have had chlorine dioxide in it. If you're brewing extract, try a batch with distilled or RO water and see what happens.

Also - and I admit to not having read your previous thread - you mentioned nothing about fermentation temperature. My first couple of beers, before I started strictly controlling the temperatures, all tasted pretty awful. Remember, the temp of the fermenting beer is often several degrees higher than the ambient temp.

Otherwise, check your water. Another idea is to try a small (2.5 gal) all-grain batch to rule out the extract thing. You could probably pull it off pretty easily with your current equipment using the brew in a bag method.

Tell us more about your temp. control method. Also, my first three batches
were crap. On # 30 now and they have all been great. Two major changes
I made were submerging the fermenters in a 68* water bath and full wort
boils. No off flavors at all nothing.

Brewham said:

Stop before you hurt yourself. I suggest you hook up with a local home brew club and let them taste it. Maybe someone will come over and observe what you are doing.

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That's the problem. No clubs local. No LHBS hard to find someone to drive an hour and half to brew with me. All supplies and info from books and web.

JuanMoore said:

Edit-
I looked up the Macon water report for 09. It looks like the water is treated with both chlorine and chlorine dioxide. The spring water you bought was most likely just local water that had been filtered, and still may have had chlorine dioxide in it. If you're brewing extract, try a batch with distilled or RO water and see what happens.

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Will use Distilled water next time. I called the water dept. for a report couldn't get any good info on what's in the water. Did you find the report on their site?

erock2112 said:

you mentioned nothing about fermentation temperature. My first couple of beers, before I started strictly controlling the temperatures, all tasted pretty awful. Remember, the temp of the fermenting beer is often several degrees higher than the ambient temp.

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I use the water bath method held at 62 degrees to account for higher temps internally during fermentation. Try to keep all temps below 70 during active fermentation especially

HatchetJack said:

Tell us more about your temp. control method. Also, my first three batches
were crap. On # 30 now and they have all been great. Two major changes
I made were submerging the fermenters in a 68* water bath and full wort
boils. No off flavors at all nothing.

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Temp control mentioned above. what kind of water are you using? I'm going to go for a full wort boil on the next one but aluminum pot is all that's in the current budget!

Are you still using plastic? I skimmed your other thread and a few people quoted trying a glass one and had similar issues with their plastic ones going bad on them too.

Technically yes, using plastic Better Bottles. With that said, there are so many using them that I've kind of discounted that as an issue.

Yeah, unless you scratched your Better Bottle, and it is easy to do, I would discount that as well. Give it a good close look in good light.

But I agree with earlier respondents that it sounds like a chlorine issue, not an infection.

I wonder why your first batch and your first batch with the new equipement were good and the rest bad. Did you clean them differently? Maybe with new equipment you used a different cleaning method than after a batch?

I would suggest taking a step back and simplify things. Use a basic extract
recipe/dry yeast and skip the secondary. I ferment all mine for 3 weeks in primary.
I use well water but do full wort boils and just assume the water could have
nasties and never rinse with it or let my utensils touch it unless it has
sanitizer in it. Are you aerating the wort before pitching and what temp?
How are you preparing your bottles? What were you doing secondary in?

jpzep4 said:

Will use Distilled water next time. I called the water dept. for a report couldn't get any good info on what's in the water. Did you find the report on their site?

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The chlorine / chlorine hydroxide info was on the basic report on the website. If you ever want to go AG you'll need to call again and get the numbers for all of the brewing related ions, but until then it's not really neccesary. When the chlorine hydroxide in your water reacts with bacterium, viruses, etc, and when it naturally starts to break down, it creates chloride. Chloride is good for brewing in smaller quantities, but levels over 300 ppm can lead to off flavors from phenols and chlorophenols. I don't know of any way to remove or lower chloride levels other than dilution.

Make sure when you do the distilled water batch that everything is rinsed with distilled water rather than tap both on brew day and bottling day, so that the water can be completely ruled out as a source. Also mix your sanitizer with the distilled rather than the tap water.

I re-read your post, and FWIW I've heard of people having phenol-like flavors from oxyclean residue. IMO anything cleaned with oxyclean needs to be rinsed thoroughly multiple times to remove all residue, just like any bleach based cleaner. I still think the issue is your water, but it's something to consider.

Damian, sorry to hear you are getting so frustrated although I do not blame you.
You have written about how your batches have tasted bad but could you give more specific descriptions of what you are tasting.

Many defects in processing or ingredients can be identified by specific tastes. In reading the older posting you mentioned a "band aid" flavor in your first batch. If I am correct that can only come from chlorine compounds. Using distilled water like you said or possibly using Campden tablets could help that.

It seems to me that as long as you have accurate thermometers, accurate scale or measuring cups, and use sanitizers properly(diluting Star-San correctly or rinsing bleach/Oxyclean) you should not continue to have such problems. Even stale ingredients will give you drinkable beer so it should not be ingredients.

My personal thoughts lead to either temps being out of range or water with some chlorine/chloramine. But of course this is just my ideas. Good luck and keep on trying we don't want to lose you!

+1 on what Juan said as well!

Just out of curiosity, are you using oxyfree? Otherwise, you may be getting perfumes, CHLORINES, and other interesting agents in your beer.

BigB

definitely using the OxyFree with multiple rinses.

After reading all of this, I'd try some basic styles that are easy to get away with off flavors such as the porter you brewed that was good. When you brew a delicate beer such as a kolsch, it's hard to hide any off flavors that may have come from the brewing process, but when you brew a maltier brew such as a stout, brown ale, or a porter, it's easier to hide those off flavors in the richness of the beer. With that said, I'd probably stay away from starters to minimize the variables, and go with an easy dry yeast such as Nottingham or S-05 that is simply dumped right on top of the chilled wort without being re-hydrated. This is only one suggestion and I'm saying this b/c I know you're frustrated and you want to drink some delicious brew after you've put all of that hard work into it.

Also, make sure that you're rinsing all of that oxyclean off of your equipment very well and do inspect your better bottles and bottling bucket for scratches. Are your bottles clean and sanitized before bottling?

From what everyone else is saying, sounds like the water might be the issue, but I was also curious about your bottling procedure. How are you sanitizing your bottles? Preparing your priming sugar? etc. It seems odd that things can taste pretty good going into the bottles and then taste drastically different coming out. I can't really explain the color thing either (I don't think chlorine affects that).

Also, if you are doing all extract kits, it isn't much of a step up to a partial mash. I have been doing partial mashes for 2 years now and I am quite convinced the quality of the beer much improved over the extract versions (a couple of awards, including a 1st place, at a few local/regional comps speaks to this as well I think). You might consider trying it.

I would agree with the water/chlorine issue. I just switched back to spring water (Poland Spring) and the plastic, astringent aftertaste was gone in my last batch. In the long run I don't think you'll need to use bottled water for all of your sanitizing and rinsing procedures, but you might want to do it for a single run just to isolate the problem.

I say do a simple pale ale using spring water from a reputable source or distilled water. People seem to have luck with Poland Spring: Mineral Content of Poland Spring

Yeah, the water is a huge factor when brewing in general, but with extract it's SUPER important. The reason being is b/c the manufacturer of the extract has already worried about the quality of the water when they made the extract itself. With that said, you should ALWAYS use distilled water with extract b/c it is about as close as you can get to pure water. At that point, water should no longer be a factor. Like I said before, I believe this could be either the bottling bucket, your priming routine, or bottles.

A lot of brewers use tap water and it does not go bad and you said you used
spring and bottled water with the same bad taste. You are using oxyclean
and starsan like most of the rest of us, I don't think it's that. Not really
desribing an infection. I picked up one clue when you said your very first
beer was the best and you did no temp control on that one. I wonder if what
you are tasting is yeast that have been stressed by too cool of temps or not
a long enough primary fermentation. Did I read correctly that you fermented
7 days primary at 63 and four weeks secondary at 42 degrees?

I'm the king of long posts. here goes:

KevinW said:

Damian, sorry to hear you are getting so frustrated although I do not blame you. You have written about how your batches have tasted bad but could you give more specific descriptions of what you are tasting.

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It's sort of a chemical taste with a bit of coriander. Weird I know but that's all I can describe. The astringent description is probably applicable as it's just not a flavor you want in your mouth. No matter the recipe, there is NO, I mean NO, maltiness. The first brew was a SN Pale Ale clone and though it was good ( by my first-time homebrewer standard) it definitely had the chlorophenol burp thing going on. the reason i haven't suspected the water as much through this process is I always equated chlorophenols with plastic taste. This recurring flavor is not always plastic but maybe I'm just not aware of the range of chlorine-based off flavors

HatchetJack said:

I would suggest taking a step back and simplify things. Use a basic extract recipe/dry yeast and skip the secondary. I ferment all mine for 3 weeks in primary. I use well water but do full wort boils and just assume the water could have nasties and never rinse with it or let my utensils touch it unless it has sanitizer in it. Are you aerating the wort before pitching and what temp? How are you preparing your bottles? What were you doing secondary in?

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Only aerated by shaking. Was going to invest in an aeration system but for obvious reasons haven't gotten there yet. Pitching at the given yeast's recommended temp. Approx. 78-85 probably. When I secondary (which is not often) I use a Better Bottle.

JLem said:

From what everyone else is saying, sounds like the water might be the issue, but I was also curious about your bottling procedure. How are you sanitizing your bottles? Preparing your priming sugar? etc. It seems odd that things can taste pretty good going into the bottles and then taste drastically different coming out. I can't really explain the color thing either (I don't think chlorine affects that).

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Bottles have all been oxycleaned or PBW'd initially with 3-4 rinses. I don't soak each time because I do a good thorough rinsing after each use. They are always StarSan'd (with tap water) with a Vinator. I run the cycle on the dishwasher no soap. Then put them upside down to drain just before filling. Priming sugar boiled 5-10 min. Covered, cooled, added to Better Bottle then beer racked on top. Use OxiClean soaked bottling wand, starsan'd to BB racking adapter. Pretty much textbook. Quite often though things DO NOT taste okay going into bottles. That hint of off flavor is often present and worsens in bottles.

HatchetJack said:

A lot of brewers use tap water and it does not go bad and you said you used spring and bottled water with the same bad taste. You are using oxyclean and starsan like most of the rest of us, I don't think it's that. Not really desribing an infection. I picked up one clue when you said your very first beer was the best and you did no temp control on that one. I wonder if what you are tasting is yeast that have been stressed by too cool of temps or not a long enough primary fermentation. Did I read correctly that you fermented 7 days primary at 63 and four weeks secondary at 42 degrees?

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All good points but the reason for that weird fermentation schedule was a Kolsch attempt. From all I read that was the way to do that one, i.e. secondary like a lager.

As a matter of fact that beer was actually pretty good as it secondaried. i had the occasional taste ( it's easy to get a sample because my Better Bottles have racking adapters. very little infection risk there) I thought it was actually going to turn out good but this one has gotten worse in bottles. It has become a plastic burp monster and the color has actually darkened as its conditioned. Another thing I cannot explain. Bottom line, three weeks in the bottle on this one and it's getting worse not better. That is so damn frustrating.

I have read that the slightest chlorine off-flavor first will not get better with time, as a matter of fact can get worse. This may be another confirmation of water issues as this is happening. The Porter covered the majority of the off-flavors I guess but it's got some plastic to it when you really dissect it. i did make some Apfelwein that I though turned out pretty good. No water in that one so that's logical.

Anyone have any thought on color. Belgian Wit, ESB (dumped), Irish Red (dumped), Newcastle Clone (dumped), now even a Kolsch. Same color, basically the same flavor. Thats weird.

I really appreciate the help from everyone. I'm going to use distilled water on the next batch for EVERYTHING. I'm going to do a full boil pale ale with a good long primary, no secondary. Going to sanitize bottles with distilled water and starsan. See where that gets me.

Actually, my friend wanted me to brew a Corona clone (I know, I know) but i have that extract in the fridge right now. It's a lager so I know that's not keeping it simple. i'll give that one a shot too before I get to the pale ale. Good news is the commercial version isn't very good either so maybe I'll hit the mark right!!!

I'm beginning to agree with the other posters who say you need to let some other homebrewers taste your brews. I find it really crazy that you're dumping that many batches. I've been brewing for years and have never dumped a batch due to the flavor being so horrible. Maybe I missed this, but where are you getting your extract? Also, if you're capable of brewing extract, try a partial mash.

Believe me I know how ridiculous it sounds. With each batch I've figured it couldn't possibly happen again. I've spent HOURS AND HOURS learning to do this and do it right. I've never brewed with anyone but there are so many people on this board who haven't either and they're making good beer.

I have an acquaintance/friend who brews close by but he and I can never ever jive our schedules. He doesn't use our local water, he kegs, all-grain, and full boil so we have very little in common as far as our process. But... he just told me about a group of guys from surrounding areas who get together to sample and compare notes occasionally. Not officially a listed club I guess but basically a club. I will get there when they meet again.

I've got to say that after approx. 10 brews I REALLY think I have the concept down, even though the beer sucks. It's GOT to be something else. Water seems to be the easiest and most logical culprit. I don't have a control because even when I used distilled or spring (don't remember which) it was only the top off water. Still boiled and sanitized with tap. From what I understand, boiling doesn't help a lot with the chlorine issue

I'm going to drive 2 hours north to Atlanta to a HBS and let the owner sample 3 or 4 of my brews and identify this flavor. Just spoke to him. FWIW, after I do that I'll report back. Thanks again for the help. I'm going to get this figured out.

2 hours, dang. You know, I would just go to wally world and buy 6 gallons of distilled water on brew day and use that for your entire process. I didn't really mention this before, but this is what I'd do if I were you and I'm sure you already know it all.

Steps I take to brew extract-

1) Add 3 gallons of distilled water (or as much as your kettle can hold) bring to a boil.
2) Take pot off of the heat and add extract.
3) Bring back to a boil being careful for boil overs and add your bittering and aroma hop additions.
4) Take a sanitized lid and cover your hot wort after the boil is complete. Keep this lid on your wort throughout the entire cooling process (if you use an ice bath) except for stirring if you use an immersion chiller, there is almost no way to get around the lid being off.
5) While the wort is chilling, sanitize all of your equipment and the packet of yeast you will use (I recommend using non re-hydrated dry yeast simply b/c it's easy and effective) then lay it all out on a sanitized counter. Don't forget to cover the opening of your better bottle with a piece of sanitized foil.
6) I'll probably get bashed for this, but don't worry about shaking your wort for aeration, just dump it into the better bottle vigorously, top off with your distilled water (you remembered to sanitize the top section of the bottles right?), and pitch your yeast when the wort is at the appropriate temp.
7) Put your better bottle into the swamp cooler, and don't mess with it for 3 weeks other than looking to make sure there is krausen on the top (DO NOT OPEN THE LID).
8) Do not rack to a secondary, just when the time has come, sanitize all of you bottling equipment (of course after you've inspected to make sure it's clean to the eye and not scratched right?), lay it all out onto a sanitized counter, and then bottle your beer.
9)When the beer has aged the appropriate time (at least 3 weeks) put some bottles into the fridge for a few days, then enjoy.

Now this is what I'd do to minimize the factors that could be causing off flavors. Hell, to not worry about off flavors due to fermentation temps, brew a simple a simple American Wheat with Danstar's dry Munich yeast.

Here is one of Jamil's recipes that I've brewed a couple of times for a simple American Wheat-

OG 1.052
IBU 20
60 minute boil

9 lbs Wheat LME
1 oz 5% AA Willamette 60 minutes
.3 oz 5% AA Willamette 0 minutes
.3 oz 9% AA Centennial 0 minutes

I know this was long and stuff you've already know/heard, but I hope it helps a little bit.

jpzep4 said:

3. LME/DME argument. Brewing partial boils with LME (possibly too old at that) I've read the debate on that combo leading to "extract twang". I order supplies and it may be a month or longer before I can use them but I keep them cold and well preserved. I've read extensively on extract twang (reality or myth aside) but it's always described as a sweet flavor. this is not sweet, it's nasty. Just bad. Burps are bad too. The Sam Smith clone was brewed with DME not LME and doesn't seem to exhibit the same off flavors after months in bottles. Could this really all come down to an LME issue?

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I'm not here to debate the LMEvDMEvAG issue but from my experience I flat out do not like LME. See how your Sam Smith turns out after 3 weeks in the bottle and see if that makes the diff.

I made some LME batches that I liked but only after full/late boil and then only on specific styles.

Good luck.

MikeG said:

I'm not here to debate the LMEvDMEvAG issue but from my experience I flat out do not like LME. See how your Sam Smith turns out after 3 weeks in the bottle and see if that makes the diff.

I made some LME batches that I liked but only after full/late boil and then only on specific styles.

Good luck.

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Yeah, I also think that lme has more "twang" than dme, but who knows.

No matter the recipe, there is NO, I mean NO, maltiness.

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and

Anyone have any thought on color. Belgian Wit, ESB (dumped), Irish Red (dumped), Newcastle Clone (dumped), now even a Kolsch. Same color, basically the same flavor.

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you could have multiple issues, but it's hard for me to think of a way you get these results without infection.

MikeG said:

I'm not here to debate the LMEvDMEvAG issue but from my experience I flat out do not like LME. See how your Sam Smith turns out after 3 weeks in the bottle and see if that makes the diff.

I made some LME batches that I liked but only after full/late boil and then only on specific styles.

Good luck.

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I've wondered about it as I noted in that post. The Sam Smith has been in bottles for several months now as its 8.6%. It doesn't exhibit the same taste characteristics at all, maybe a little butterscotchy plus some alcohol bite,but nothing like these others. Definitely going to be drinkable for a Black Crowes concert we're heading to in November :rockin: unless something changes dramatically. i don't foresee that. I can't really explain that other than the higher gravity having some flavor-masking ability.

That said, the Newcastle Clone was all DME and it was the worst of the worst that I've brewed. Bad, bad, bad. That was my first dumped beer. I am going to use DME plus distilled water for the next one though.

No rhyme or reason to these problems. Bringing 4 beers to the HBS in Atlanta this Friday. Smith, Belgian Wit, ESB, and Kolsch. We'll see what he thinks.

jpzep4 said:

I've wondered about it as I noted in that post. The Sam Smith has been in bottles for several months now as its 8.6%. It doesn't exhibit the same taste characteristics at all, maybe a little butterscotchy plus some alcohol bite,but nothing like these others. Definitely going to be drinkable for a Black Crowes concert we're heading to in November :rockin: unless something changes dramatically. i don't foresee that. I can't really explain that other than the higher gravity having some flavor-masking ability.

That said, the Newcastle Clone was all DME and it was the worst of the worst that I've brewed. Bad, bad, bad. That was my first dumped beer. I am going to use DME plus distilled water for the next one though.

No rhyme or reason to these problems. Bringing 4 beers to the HBS in Atlanta this Friday. Smith, Belgian Wit, ESB, and Kolsch. We'll see what he thinks.

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You're coming up to Brewmasters Warehouse?

pvh99 said:

and



you could have multiple issues, but it's hard for me to think of a way you get these results without infection.

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I agree but new fermenters, new hoses, everything oxycleaned and heavily rinsed then sanitized, low oxygen racking between better bottles. Bottling procedure is pretty textbook. It's hard to imagine where it's getting in.

I did have leak in my wort chiller hose that was dribbling tap water in my cooling beer on an earlier brew. That was a big mistake but I found it and fixed it. Didn't use the wort chiller last time just to eliminate that variable. Same flavor.

-It's not the malt extract if that's what you are using. You should be
able to brew a great beer with 2 cans of liquid malt extract and hops.
I would get to the point where you can do that before you do anything
"fancy".

-Traces of bleach can create a clove flavor, which actually can taste
good in a dark beer. It's not the same as the band-aid flavor, which
is usually due to wild yeast contamination. If you are manipulating
any grains in the brewhouse, the grain dust you create in the
air can be a source of wild yeast and other microbials.

-If your plastic fermenters are contaminated, you will be able to smell
it in the container after you've cleaned and dried it. Stick your nose
deep in the container, can you smell any off smells?

-Aging isn't going to do anything positive for your beer unless you
can age at very cold temps. Even then, the hop flavor/aroma will
decrease steadily. Aging an ale for a long time near rt will result in more
attenuation (less body), more chance of oxygen-related staleness
issues, and a large decrease in hop flavor aroma.

I would try a simple beer with real temperature control (60, not 68
in a water bath) and with as little manipulation as possible, and drink
it fresh. This is where having something like a Beer Machine
would come in handy, because you can ferment for 3-4 days, pour
into the beer machine with some more dme, and drink it 3 or 4 days
later with minimal manipulation (no hoses, bottles to worry about).

Another question to ask is: does your raw beer (before bottling)
taste bad?

Ray

MikeG said:

You're coming up to Brewmasters Warehouse?

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Actually I found a place called JustBrew It in Fayetteville. Turns out to be closer and came recommended. Talked to the owner. He's up for tasting some crappy beer to help me figure it out.

Way to go on the stick-tuitiveness. of course, you have to ask yourself. If you are this addicted to the hobby creating what you consider crappy beer, what will happen when you start getting better results?

Clumber said:

Way to go on the stick-tuitiveness. of course, you have to ask yourself. If you are this addicted to the hobby creating what you consider crappy beer, what will happen when you start getting better results?

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Exactly what I was thinking! I definitely respect your tenacity and willingness to solve the problem rather than quit. My guess is that once you nail this problem, you will be a master brewer!

Clumber said:

Way to go on the stick-tuitiveness. of course, you have to ask yourself. If you are this addicted to the hobby creating what you consider crappy beer, what will happen when you start getting better results?

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I guess you could use the word addicted. I prefer committed. Once I have some presentable beer I can actually share it with family and friends. For now I wouldn't let my dog drink it.

rayg said:

-Traces of bleach can create a clove flavor, which actually can taste
good in a dark beer. It's not the same as the band-aid flavor, which
is usually due to wild yeast contamination.

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Traces of bleach react with the yeast to create phenols and chlorophenols. Some phenols taste like cloves, some taste like band-aids, some taste astringent, some taste like burnt plastic, and some just taste harsh. Which phenols get created depend on the yeast strain and the type of chlorine it's reacting with(chlorine, chloramine, chlorine dioxide etc). While some wild yeasts can create band-aid flavored phenols, that particular flavor is more likely to be a result of chlorine than a wild yeast infection.