Advice needed...

I'm on my second beer. My first was an IPA that's was bottled after 2 weeks and has been bottle conditioning for 2 weeks. It tasted good out of the carboy, but sweet again after 1 week in the bottle. No worries, I hear "3 weeks 70F" so I'm not too worried about that. For learning, I'll try another one at 2 weeks, but don't expect much before "3 weeks 70F"

However, I have questions about my second brew. Its the NB Caribou Slobber Extract kit. I pitched with Wyeast 1332. My question is about secondaries. I am not opposed to trying it. I realize the long argument surrounding benefits, however, my question is if I secondary will there be enough yeast in suspension for the bottle to carb? Say I did 2 weeks primary, 4 weeks secondary like the instructions suggest. Will I get sugary beer if all my yeast is dead/gone?

This whole thought makes me want to do like Revvy and just do 3-4 weeks primary and bottle...

Side note: My next batch will have dry hops, so likewise, I'll ask for the same information for that... I will need to secondary so it becomes a bit more of a concern then...

You will have enough yeast!

Yes there will be enough yeast to bottle. The yeast may be sleepy and take longer than 3 weeks to properly carb but they will. If you want to speed things up a bit you can certainly add a little dry yeast to the batch when you bottle.

Personally, I would skip the secondary and package once the beer has reached FG and dropped clear, probably within 21 days. This assumes you handled your fermentation temperatures and there are no off flavors or flaws the yeast need more time to clean up)

You don't have to secondary to dry hop either. Many of us do it in primary,after FG & the beer has had a little time to settle out clear or slightly misty.

The reasons not to secondary are oxygenation (because you're exposing the beer as you move it around, and also because your secondary will be full of oxygen-rich ambient air, while your primary is full of just the CO2 expelled during fermentation) and risk of infection (again, because you're exposing the beer as you move it).

I secondary-ed my first eight batches, and they all carbed up just fine.

I used to automatically transfer every beer to secondary since that is what we all thought we had to do. Much happier now with skipping that one extra step, but either way you'll have plenty of yeast to bottle carb.

I'm curious about your first batch being sweet after 1 week in the bottle. What was your final gravity? Do you have any carbonation at all after one week?

Thanks for the advice. I won't secondary the Slobber, however, I'd like to harvest yeast from the IIPA which was why I was going to secondary. However, I'm beginning to consider just pulling some yeast from my starter and making another small culture to harvest instead of washing. Thoughts?

Bithead said:

I'm curious about your first batch being sweet after 1 week in the bottle. What was your final gravity? Do you have any carbonation at all after one week?

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Idk as this was our first 5 gallon batch and we didn't have the proper tools then. (We do now.) However, we popped one open last night, a week later and it tasted MUCH better. The "sweet" was nearly gone, not quite. This might be what people describe as "green" however, it didn't taste this sweet before bottling so I attributed it to the priming sugar not being processed yet.

And yes, both last week and this week, it had carbonation. Both times, it hissed a lot, however, last night, it had a much better head.

Skep18 said:

Thanks for the advice. I won't secondary the Slobber, however, I'd like to harvest yeast from the IIPA which was why I was going to secondary. However, I'm beginning to consider just pulling some yeast from my starter and making another small culture to harvest instead of washing. Thoughts?

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That's what I do. It takes a little longer upfront because you have to make a larger starter, but I think it is easier to do and easier to keep sanitary. I would think it is also less likely to be mutated (a concern down the line), but I have absolutely no data to back that up.

freisste said:

That's what I do. It takes a little longer upfront because you have to make a larger starter, but I think it is easier to do and easier to keep sanitary. I would think it is also less likely to be mutated (a concern down the line), but I have absolutely no data to back that up.

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In theory couldn't I just add wort to the starter plate after I decant and let it stir for a day or 2 to let the yeast reproduce? I might could leave a little slurry behind, but if you can grow yeast from a slant, surely the slurry left on the walls is enough to begin again.

Also, this adds to the dry hop question. So, if I dry hop in primary, when do I add the hops? The instructions at NB (which probably aren't optimal as they also call for secondary) say to dry hop for a week. They go on to also say primary 2 weeks, secondary 4 weeks with the dry hopping at the last week, however, how would I incorporate this new technique into my new process? Do I primary until OG is stable for 2-3 days then add hops for a week, probably resulting in 3-4 weeks in primary?

Leave it in primary till it reaches a stable FG. Then give it another 3-7 days to clean up & settle out clear or slightly misty. you don't want a lot of yeast & trub in suspension while dry hopping for a week. The hop oils would coat the yeast cells & other particles & go to the bottom.

You likely could get a few remaining yeast cells on the sides of the flask which would reproduce to a new colony. However, a balance needs to be struck between starting yeast numbers, size of starter and gravity of starter. Doing it your way would require a pretty small starter to not overwhelm the yeast. But I do believe it is POSSIBLE. As Unionrdr said, let the beer finish before you dry hop. Probably 2.5-3 weeks is conservative. Then dry hop for 5-7 days (or longer, up to you). Then bottle/keg.

unionrdr said:

Leave it in primary till it reaches a stable FG. Then give it another 3-7 days to clean up & settle out clear or slightly misty. you don't want a lot of yeast & tryb in suspension while dry hopping for a week. The hop oils would coat the yeast cells & other particles & go to the bottom.

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freisste said:

You likely could get a few remaining yeast cells on the sides of the flask which would reproduce to a new colony. However, a balance needs to be struck between starting yeast numbers, size of starter and gravity of starter. Doing it your way would require a pretty small starter to not overwhelm the yeast. But I do believe it is POSSIBLE. As Unionrdr said, let the beer finish before you dry hop. Probably 2.5-3 weeks is conservative. Then dry hop for 5-7 days (or longer, up to you). Then bottle/keg.

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OK, thanks. Yea, so it sounds like a 4-5 week ordeal (estimating of course, I know to look for FG) to leave in primary. Is this too long on a yeast cake?

And understood about the colony... I'm trying to find a solution to keeping some yeast to make a colony out of. My starter is already probably a little shy of the yeast I'm looking for as is, so I don;t really want to leave too much behind. Also, I'd prefer not to have hops in my yeast, although would the hops fall out all into the trub, meaning if I washed it, removing the middle creamy layer only, I could avoid the hops?

Any other thoughts on maintaining a colony with what I have?

Skep18 said:

I'd like to harvest yeast from the IIPA which was why I was going to secondary.

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I would advise against that. I would not re-use yeast from a relatively high-gravity batch, as it will be excessively stressed, tired, and mutated. I only re-use yeast from low-to-moderate gravity batches. If I'm brewing an IIPA, I'll brew an IPA first and re-use that yeast in the IIPA, then let the noble soldiers rest in peace.

4-5 weeks in primary isn'too long to wash the yeast. I've done that.

kombat said:

I would advise against that. I would not re-use yeast from a relatively high-gravity batch, as it will be excessively stressed, tired, and mutated. I only re-use yeast from low-to-moderate gravity batches. If I'm brewing an IIPA, I'll brew an IPA first and re-use that yeast in the IIPA, then let the noble soldiers rest in peace.

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I see, that makes sense... Any input on starting a new culture from a small bit of leftover yeast slurry left in the starter jar? I.e. pour some more wort into the jar and let the leftover yeast repopulate again?

Skep18 said:

Any input on starting a new culture from a small bit of leftover yeast slurry left in the starter jar? I.e. pour some more wort into the jar and let the leftover yeast repopulate again?

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I don't know that I'd start a new "culture" from such slurry, but I certainly don't see any issue with building it up as a pitchable starter for a batch of beer. The only yeast I'd trust as a source for a new culture would be a sample taken straight from a White Labs vial or Wyeast smack-pack, collected under sterile conditions and streaked onto an agar plate/slant.

Did you make a single starter? Something like a liter of water and 100g DME? Because you could decant the beer off of that a starter and make another one just like it to nearly double your yeast cells again. This would cost you about two more days, but since you said you are already likely under pitching, this may be a good solution. Then you could leave 1/4 cup or so of the yeast slurry behind as the beginning of your next starter.

This is called a stepped starter. It is a little more efficient as far as materials go (you can make more yeast cells from the same amount of water and DME), but it takes a little longer.