Please HBT community, help me before the SWMBO forces me to quit!

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thatjoshguy

thatjoshguy

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Alright, I'm at my wit's end here (no pun intended). If I can't figure this out I may have to give up this hobby entirely because the SWMBO will not let me keep dumping money into beer that no one will drink.

To sum up: two batches, different beers, same soapy taste. Batch A = True Brew Amber, batch B = NB Irish Red Ale. Both batches seem to have gone smoothly. They both looked beautiful, carbed well, cleared and carbed. No off-smelling aromas. The Irish Red in particular looks and smells delicious, although the yeast didn't seem to flocculate as much as I'd hoped. Could be the strain (Wyeast 1272 American Ale II).

based on what I've seen in other threads, here are the possible causes I can determine:

  1. Soapy equipment - already ruled out. Didn't use any dish soap or anything like that on my equipment/bottles for second batch
  2. Cleanser/sanitizer - batch a i used one-step, batch b i used B-Brite to clean and Star-San to sanitize.
  3. Trub - "How To Brew" has an entry on leaving beer on the trub too long. Both batches I racked to a secondary fermenter after 8-10 days. Only thing I can think of here though is that when I bottle a week or two later, there's about 1/2in - 1in of sediment in the secondary as well.
  4. Yeast - two different types of yeast (can't remember batch A, batch B used Wyeast 1272 American Ale II). I'm almost leaning towards the idea that the yeat is dying though... see previous note about the amount of sediment in the secondary, could this be an issue?
  5. Water - I guess this could be somewhat ruled out. First batch I used tap water (our water tastes pretty good), second batch I used distilled water I got at the store for the full 5 gal. My father in law used to brew back in the day using well water and their beer never tasted soapy :(
  6. Fermentation Temps - Maybe? First batch was left in a closet and it got fairly warm (lower 70s). Second batch was fermented in the basement, average temp 65-68F

I will gladly ship a bottle to anyone who can help me identify the cause of the soapy flavor, or if you are local to north-central West Virginia I'll bring you a bottle myself. I would love to continue brewing, but it's very discouraging when your first two batches are failures, yet no one can pinpoint exactly why. I've seen this problem posted several times on several forums, but rarely is it solved. Actually, i've yet to find a thread where the brewer came back and said "THAT WAS IT!". Batch A did improve at one point, but then went straight to hell later on. Batch B, I gave an additional 6 weeks to bottle condition and after tasting last night it seems like it's getting worse.

Please HomeBrewTalk community... save me! Gather your spirits and pray to the brew gods that they should bestow upon me the same good fortune that so many of you experience!

Why hast thou forsaken me, brew gods?!? WHY?!?
 
My only 2 thoughts are:

A. Did you make a yeast starter? If you didnt, the yeast would likely be stressed. Im not sure if autolysis (yeast suicide) could occur that fast if they were stressed, but its possible. One of the characteristics of autolysis can be soapy/fatty flavors. http://www.amg01.info/PDFfiles/LearnMore/Yeast Autolysis.pdf

B. I think you arent leaving the beer in the primary long enough. I have begun leaving my beers in the primary for 3-4 weeks. Then I either rack to a keg, or secondary (only if needed) and havent had any issues. You should be giving the yeast at least 2 weeks in the primary. There are a lot of compounds produced during fermentation and the yeast needs time to clean them up. 8-10 days is pretty fast for racking (even tho starter kits say its okay).
 
thatjoshguy said:
[*]Trub - "How To Brew" has an entry on leaving beer on the trub too long. Both batches I racked to a secondary fermenter after 8-10 days.
Click to expand...
What was the gravity at that point? Next time leave in the primary for 2-3wks -> check gravity before doing anything else.


thatjoshguy said:
[*]Water - I guess this could be somewhat ruled out. First batch I used tap water (our water tastes pretty good), second batch I used distilled water I got at the store for the full 5 gal. My father in law used to brew back in the day using well water and their beer never tasted soapy :(
Click to expand...

Next time use 50/50 tap spring water not distilled water.


thatjoshguy said:
Fermentation Temps - Maybe? First batch was left in a closet and it got fairly warm (lower 70s). Second batch was fermented in the basement, average temp 65-68F
Click to expand...

What temp did you pitch the yeast? how did you check the wort temp?
 
broadbill said:
How long has it been since you brewed these beers? Extract or AG? What is your procedure?
Click to expand...

Batch A - honestly can't remember.

Batch B :
-Brewed on Oct. 3rd. 2009
-Distilled water
-Boil Volume = 1.5 Gallons
-Steeped Grains for 15 min as water heated up, starting at 90 Deg. F
-Once boiling, added Gold Malt (LME)
-added 1/2 gallon water.
-Total boiling volume now 2.5 Gallons
-brought back to boil
-set timer for 60 min.
-added Willamette
-at t-30min, added East Kent Goldings
-chilled wort in sink of ice to 70 Deg
-added 2.5 gallons of pre-boiled, chilled purified water for final volume of 5 Gallons
-temp 61deg F
-aerated for 30min. using new aquarium pump and stone
-pitched yeast at 62deg F
-Primary: 6 days @ 66 degrees F
-Secondary: 14 days @ 66 degrees F
-O.G. 1.040
-F.G. 1.010


Notes on yeast: this was one of the wyeast smack-packs. It was quite swollen when I pitched it into the wort.

I usually test beer as it ages, one bottle a week after 2 weeks, to get an idea what is going on. the flavor is always there, although it varies from bottle to bottle. This batch has been aging quite a while now, I bottled right before Thanksgiving.

I pitch to secondary when the gravity is at my target (1.010 in this case) for two days straight, as according to How To Brew". Should I wait longer?
 
More information is needed. Don't give up we all have had similar problems but you will overcome them. Tell us what your brew day is like and your process.
 
thatjoshguy said:
[*]Trub - "How To Brew" has an entry on leaving beer on the trub too long. Both batches I racked to a secondary fermenter after 8-10 days. Only thing I can think of here though is that when I bottle a week or two later, there's about 1/2in - 1in of sediment in the secondary as well.
Click to expand...

Actually too long is MONTHS not days.

There's been a big shift in brewing consciousness in the last few years where many of us believe that yeast is a good thing, and besides just fermenting the beer, that they are fastidious creatures who go back and clean up any by products created by themselves during fermentation, which may lead to off flavors.

Rather than the yeast being the cause of off flavors, it is now looked at by many of us, that they will if left alone actually remove those off flavors, and make for clearer and cleaner tasting beers.

You'll find that a great many folks, maybe even the majority on here these days, leave their beers in primary for 3-4 weeks, skipping secondary. Many of us even dry hop in primary, and only rack to secondary if we are adding oak or fruit, or had fruit in the boil or primary and left lots of trub behind.

Even John Palmer talks about this in How To Bew;

How To Brew said:
Leaving an ale beer in the primary fermentor for a total of 2-3 weeks (instead of just the one week most canned kits recommend), will provide time for the conditioning reactions and improve the beer. This extra time will also let more sediment settle out before bottling, resulting in a clearer beer and easier pouring. And, three weeks in the primary fermentor is usually not enough time for off-flavors to occur.
Click to expand...

And this;

John Palmer

As a final note on this subject, I should mention that by brewing with healthy yeast in a well-prepared wort, many experienced brewers, myself included, have been able to leave a beer in the primary fermenter for several months without any evidence of autolysis.
Click to expand...

People have left it as much as six months.

This is where the most up to date brewing wisdom and ideas can be found...In fact a lot of stuff has been started on here, and made it into byo or zymurgy or podcasts...in fact BYO DID a piece on no secondary/long primary, along with the BASIC BREWING PODCAST and even they said that there were no issues/harm with doing it and in some beers it did actually improve the flavor and clarity. And I believe that really WAS influenced by the discussion we have had for the last couple years on here.

After a month in primary your beer is crystal clear, very clean and crisp tasting. And when you rack to bottle you leave behind a really dense yeast/trub cake.

Believe me, after three years of doing the long primary/ no secondary I find no need to go back to doing it any other way. The quality of my beers has upped 10 ten fold.

I'm pretty sure that's where your issue is, you're rushing it off the yeast before it has a chance to clean up after itself, and that's where your off flavor is more than likely coming from.
 
The only beer I ever made that tasted soapy ended up being infected. The bottles started gushing like 6 months later (when I opened them up to dump them out because I needed the bottles) and it tasted funky (not sour) at that time. When they first tasted soapy there were no signs characteristic of infection, that showed up much later.

Thats my only guess. Anything else that could have caused you problems you cleared up on the second batch where you were using a good cleaner and sanitizer, water that won't have caused a problem, good yeast and a reasonable fermentation temperature.

Are there potential sources of infection where you brew? Kitchens are full of bacteria, but a lot of people get away with brewing in them. Any window air conditioners near where you brew or ferment?

You could try being extremely diligent about sanitation and brewing at a different location next batch to rule out infection.
 
thatjoshguy said:
Notes on yeast: this was one of the wyeast smack-packs. It was quite swollen when I pitched it into the wort.
Click to expand...

You didn't make a starter? That's another issue, and potential source of off flavors. There are only enough cells in a tube or smack pack to easily ferment a beer with an og of 1.025 or less....anything over that, which is most beers, a starter is needed.

This calculator will show you how big of a starter you need to pitch.

http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

That's a two fold issue, if you are stressing your yeast out by under pitching, and then not letting the yeast clean up their stress caused mess, then you ARE bound to get off flavors.
 
Revvy said:
And how long are you letting them bottle condition before you start drinking them?
Click to expand...

Why would beer taste soapy when it is young?

I like how you enthusiastically defend serving beer when it is only 5 times as old as every pub beer as the cause of every beer problem, but sometimes it can be something else.
 
Revvy said:
I'm pretty sure that's where your issue is, your rushing it off the yeast before it has a chance to clean up after itself, and that's where your off flavor is more than likely coming from.
Click to expand...

This actually makes sense. This whole time I'm been going in the exact opposite direction, trying to get as much yeast/sediment OUT as soon as possible to get rid of the flavor, maybe I'm driving on the wrong side of the street...

As far as infection, I'm pretty sure that's not the case. I was obsessive about sanitation on this batch. No gushers or any sign of infection at all, and teh beer looks/smells great.
 
remilard said:
Why would beer taste soapy when it is young?

I like how you enthusiastically defend serving beer when it is only 5 times as old as every pub beer as the cause of every beer problem, but sometimes it can be something else.
Click to expand...

I think Revvy was just being careful. For all anyone knows I'm a complete noob who tried to drink my beer 3 days after bottling. :D Luckily, I'm not.
 
Let those sit for 6 months, are these light beers?

Those take a while to taste good. Amber sounds darker, but there is a wide range.

You have my sympathy!

There is still yeast when you rack to secondary. You aren't micro filtering when going to secondary are you?

If all the yeast were gone, it wouldn't carb.
 
remilard said:
Why would beer taste soapy when it is young?

I like how you enthusiastically defend serving beer when it is only 5 times as old as every pub beer as the cause of every beer problem, but sometimes it can be something else.
Click to expand...

Not this again REMMY......It's So tiring...... :rolleyes:

He's NOT a BREW PUB, AND MORE THAN LIKELY NOT PTICHING ENOUGH YEAST TO BE ABLE TO SERVE THE BEER QUICKY....

I love how YOU always have to bring up how "Commercial breweries" do things....as if most homebrewers, especially with their second batch even know how to brew a beer properly to begin with LET ALONE how the big boys do it.

You know, taste is subjective...I tend to rule a person's descriptor, one person's "soapy" could be another person's totally different taste, like simply green.

All we KNOW is that he's not happy with his tastes. And just about everyone but YOU understands about green beer AND how important bottle conditioning is to cleaning up off flavors.

And besides Remmy, I DO get follow up messages from the brewers who I help, either in their threads or via pms, Where they come back after a few more weeks of bottle conditioning, and TELL me their beer no longer has whatever flavor they will panicking about.

About 90% of the time the brewer's off flavor IS simply green and gone a couple weeks later.
 
Thanks everyone. I may have it in me to beg to try one more batch before throwing in the towel.

Notes for next time:
1 - BIG yeast starter... is there such a thing as too big? What is a best practice for that?
2 - Leave it on the primary longer. when it hits it's FG, I'll leave it for at least another two weeks.
 
thatjoshguy said:
This actually makes sense. This whole time I'm been going in the exact opposite direction, trying to get as much yeast/sediment OUT as soon as possible to get rid of the flavor, maybe I'm driving on the wrong side of the street...
Click to expand...

You'll find, despite remmy's opinion, that when making beer, Patience is a virtue, time does help make our beers better, whether it is time in the fermenter or time in the bottle. The yeast are pretty fastiduous creatures, they don't like off flavors either....so if we give them enough time they WILL tend to correct their, and our mistakes.

If you read some of the stories collected in here, and not just my own Remmy :rolleyes: you will see plenty examples of time helping our beers.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/ne...virtue-time-heals-all-things-even-beer-73254/
 
So far, I doubt that any of the answers I've read here are the true root of your problem. I believe it is very likely the hops you used or a sanitation issue. You mentioned using StarSan, but in what quantities? If it is the hops, that will go away with time. Many times EKGs will give you a soapy flavor when the beer is new. Over time, it fades.
 
Rhoobarb said:
So far, I'm doubt that any of the answers I've read here will eliminate your problem. I believe it is very likely the hops you used or a sanitation issue. You mentioned using StarSan, but in what quantities? If it is the hops, that will go away with time. Many times EKGs will give you a soapy flavor when the beer is new. Over time, it fades.
Click to expand...

I thought it may be the hops at one point too, with my "virgin" pallette, but both batches used different hops, and yet the same flavor is there. The Irish Red did use EKG and Willamette (although now their website saus US Goldings).

It's been in the bottle for about 6 weeks. I'm not going to dump it in hopes that the brew gods will look my way some time in the near future. It will be a while before I can try another batch anyway.
 
Take it to the LHBS and/or find a local brew club and see if you can find a brew judge and have them try it. i for one think it is VERY difficult to diagnose a problem on a forum.
 
Let me first say I believe that the info provided above from Revvy is spot on and you should take it to heart.

Here's one idea I had: what kind of plastic tubing are you using for your aeration? I honestly don't know how much plastic tubing can affect taste, but I would think a non-food grade tube sitting in wort for 30 minutes could provide some form of off flavor.

Again, just a thought from another n00b. :mug:
 
Moving your beer to secondary after 6 days seems way too early. As Revvy has said millions of times....leave your beer in the primary for 3-4 weeks to let the yeast clean up after themselves. Keep your fermentation temps as close to 65 degrees as possible. Bottle condition for at least 3 weeks.
 
hey I scanned thru the responses and I don't think anybody mentioned this.

Did you use a sterile filter on the aquarium pump? Throwing all that air in there and then under pitching the yeast is a sure fire way to propagate wild yeast.

Also, under pitching into a high oxygen environment will make the yeast grow very quickly. Lots of yeast growth produces esters. Perhaps the off flavor is an ester produced by the American ale II yeast.
 
As a fellow n00b, I have to echo the advice of aging your beer longer if you're having funky flavors. My first batch had that same soapy taste (I thought I used too much sanitizer, then I found out that Star San doesn't have any taste...). Yet after letting it set an additional two weeks, the soapy taste was almost completely gone! Who knows what your beer will taste like a month from now? It's worth a shot.
 
6 days in primary should be plenty. There are still lots of yeast in suspension to do what needs to be done - particularly in a low OG beer.

Please excuse me if this sounds a bit insulting (I don't know just how much of a homebrew noob you are), but how carefully are you pouring the beers from the bottle? If you are pouring everything into a glass, then all of that yeast could cause what some might call a soapy flavor. Even if you have poured carefully trying not to disturb the sediment, if the bottles were jostled around within a day or so of chilling, there could be a lot of yeast loosened up from the bottom, and ending up in your glass.
 
While I staunchly agree with Revvy that aging is always a good thing to do, I have to admit I'm skeptical that his problem is related to yeast. He's presumably used two different yeasts for his two batches, and I'm a chronic under-pitcher myself and never had a soapy taste problem. Couple that with the fact that this taste is always present in his beer, and I'm forced to believe the problem is elsewhere.

thatjoshguy, your process looks pretty solid to me, with the exception of the added variables of the aeration system. I don't use one myself, so I'm far from an expert, on the next batch, just try the shaking and swirling method and leave out the aquarium pump and stone and see how it turns out. It will at least eliminate it as a possibility.
 
What is your routine with your bottle cleaning and sanitation? Months ago I had two batches that had all kinds of issues and I finally traced it back to a flaw in my bottle sanitation.

Do you have an inline air filter for your pump?

I agree with the others about leaving your beer in the primary for 3-4 weeks but I really don't think that is your issue - you did transfer to a secondary.

Hang in there and don't give up!!
 
wow, lots of new posts to reply to:

1) I'll be visiting my LHBS this friday if he's open (odd hours, this guy) so maybe he can help

2) I did not use the pump on the first batch for aeration, I just poured vigerously as per "How To Brew" (I foollowed the instructions there to the letter) so I doubt that's the cause

3) LME for this latest batch was ordered direct from Northern Brewer, so it should have been fresh, right? They seem reputable.

4) Bottles: for both batches I used commercial empties. First time around I scrubbed them good with dish soap now that I recall when I first got them, but then before bottling I soaked them in one-step overnight, then rinsed them in pre-boiled hot water. Second time around I thought better of this, so after I drank a beer I would just rinse the bottles out with tapwater really well and dry them. Then before bottling I soaked them in B-Brite for an hour or so, then sprayed on some star-san with a NEW spray bottle. Two different processes, same soapy flavor.

5) I'm not dumping this batch. I'll let it age till the cows come home to see if I can save it, it just seems unlikely as i'm 6 weeks in the bottle now and it tastes worse than before... then again, it may have just been more noticible in the bottle I tasted last night and I had already eaten/drank other things.

6) I pour very slowly, down the side of the glass. I usually hold it up to a light while I do it so I can see the yeast cake and stop pouring before any gets in the glass.

This evening I may get brave and taste the yeast cake itself... that may help to determine if that's the flavor or not until I can get a second opinion.
 
until then, buy packaged beer, remove the labels and apply your own. Give that to your wife and she'll be a changed girl.
 
I beg you to stay in the hobby. It's too important for the preservation of humankind to allow anyone to fall away!

But you might want to start buttering her up... if she's balking about what you're spending on brewing now, just wait until you start buying equipment. And no, it never ends! :mug:
 
I agree with most that has been said. I think the main thing right now is you are over thinking things. Time to KIS (keep it simple).

1. Make a really easy batch of beer, no frills just clean ingredients. Like Edwort's Haus Pale but just do a traditional extract only recipe. You don't need to do a partial mash until you got the extract thing under your belt.

2. Make a proper starter using mrmalty.com

3. Pitch your yeast at around 75-80 degrees

4. DON'T TOUCH YOUR BEER FOR 3 WEEKS.

5. Clean and sterilize your tubing really well and RINSE IT (unless star san)!

6. Secondary it for another 2 weeks.

7. Clean that tubing and racking can per step 5

8. MAKE SURE YOU HAVE CLEAN AND NO FRAGRANCE ON YOUR BOTTLE. If you even get a hint of a sweet wiff, rinse again.

9. Don't touch those bottles for at least 3 weeks.

I know this sounds repetitive but I think we often over think or try to fix things when in actuality we are self sabotaging our delicious brew. Most of the time it just needs time and cleanliness. Yeast like their privacy, keep your head out the bucket.

Not trying to be a jerk, just don't want to see someone give up such an awesome hobby. I actually can sympathize, I just had a beer taste soapy. Not much worse. It only happened once, but I think it was the yeast I used.
 
is it possible your fermenter was leaking air and / or it got infected or aearated during your transfer?

I agree with the pitch rate and aging thing but if those arent the problems then this would be my next guess.
 
Like its been stated before, give those bottles some alone time and revisit them.

I have a haus ale on tap right now that has tasted like a hairy butt for the past 4-5 months. (Yes it has taken it that long for it to mellow) However, I had a really good feeling that it was going to be questionable.
I got lazy and anxious. The wort wasnt cooled enough before I pitched the yeast, so I either KILLED the yeast or stressed the hell out of them. After 4 days of no activity, I pitched in a packet of bread yeast. A month later, I kegged it and it smelled like a freshly opened pack of band-aids. (And yes, it was so astringent it made my mouth numb) FFWD to now, and its rather tasty! (Only took it several months) but even other people who dont drink beer love it. Follow Revvys advise (and link) and dont give up. You arent going to hit a homerun with your beer on the first few swings, and in all honesty I think that just about every single beer I have brewed made me raise an eyebrow to it at first. But trust me - they do (magically) get better!
 

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