All my IPAs taste the same

I've done extensive amount of research and still can't come up with anything definitive on what is causing all of my IPAs to taste about the same. I thought I was on to something when I started looking at my water profile so the last IPA I did I used distilled water and added chemicals to make it "McDoles Pale Water" per the GBA Brewing Water Chemistry Primer. I also fermented that IPA at 65 degrees for 10 days and then 68 for 10 more days per a recipe on MoreBeer's site. Nope, still tasted like all the others. Maybe slightly smoother, but that's about it.

Anyway, so all my IPAs (13 of them and counting) come out spicy/peppery no matter what hops I use or what hop schedule I follow. My dream IPA has citrusy notes and gives me what I call "hop burps". Just about everyone else that likes IPAs thinks my beer is fine, but I want citrus dammit! And I want my beer to all stop tasting the same whether I use Simcoe or Citra.

I've tried different grain recipes, hopbursting, adding gypsum, adding 5.2 powder, extract only, more or only late addition hops, etc. Only my last IPA did I try using distilled water so maybe it is the combination of water issues and other things? I'm wondering if prolonged wort cooling times plays a role because depending on when I brew it can take over an hour to cool the wort. It makes sense to me that it would isomerize the hops, but some of my beers have not had prolong cooling times so either it is water playing a role or something else. My water profile is: 9.7 pH, 11 Na, 4 Ca, 1 Mg, 2 SO4, 7 Cl, 9 CO3, 22 HCO3 and I have run it through a cartridge filter for several years (the water profile is after running it through a filter). Everything I've read said that water is only good for dark beers so I get where my early beers wouldn't be like I want, but I can't explain the extract beer or the distilled water beer not cooperating.
I've mashed at various temperatures from 154 down to 149. Would a higher mash temperature even affect the character of the hop or just of the malt flavor??
All other styles of ales come out fine, other than a couple of times my dark beers have turned into gushers. I have no idea if that is related. Oh and usually I keg my IPAs, not bottle them...

Of course I want to keep trying things but I'm not certain which way to go now and I feel like Charlie Brown with that darned football! Either I'm just missing the right combination of things to do or I'm out to lunch all together.

What yeast are you using? and what are some of the flavoring hops that you are using?


Edit: I see that you are using Citra and Simcoe. How many minutes into the boil are you adding them? What is your bittering hop.

Simcoe can be somewhat spicy and Citra isn't citrusy it's more tropical fruit.

Maybe look at Amarillo late in the boil maybe 20-15 minutes or maybe some centennial.

The prolonged cooling time seems like the most likely culprit, to me. The longer those hop oils are in contact with hot wort, the more of them get converted to iso-alpha bittering compounds instead of flavour/aroma elements. I use a plate chiller and get my wort down below 100° F in about 3 minutes (recirculating back to the boil kettle) with regular tap water, then use a cooler of ice water and a pump to get it the rest of the way down to about 65° F in another 10 minutes or so.

Have you tried cold crashing with gelatin? I find it strips some of the harsher hop flavors and leaves the more delicate citrus/fruit character.

I've used:
1st Rye Pale Ale - White Labs East Coast Ale WLP008, hops: 1 oz Centennial @45, 1 oz Amarillo @15, 1 oz Cascade @5 (I've made this twice)

2nd Bob's IPA - White Labs California Ale WLP001, hops: 1 oz Warrior @60, .5 oz Cascade @30, 1 oz Amarillo @15, .5 Cascade @5, 1oz Amarillo @dry hop in secondary

3rd Bob's IPA II - Wyeast 1056 American Ale, hops: 1oz Centennial @45, .5oz Simcoe @30, .5oz Simcoe @15, .5oz Amarillo @5, .5oz Amarillo @2, 1 oz Amarillo @ dry hop in secondary (Bob at Brew Depot was trying to help me achieve a citrusy IPA with the 2nd and 3rd recipes)

4th Hazed and Infused Clone - Wyeast 1272 American Ale II, hops: .5 Chinook @60, .5 Willamette @15, .75 Cascade @15, .5 Centennial @10, .5 Willamette @0, .75 Cascade @0, .5 Liberty and .5 Centennial @ Dry hop in secondary

5th & 6th - MoreBeer's American IPA - White Labs American Ale WLP060, hops: 1.5 oz Magnum @60, 2 oz Cascade @10, 2 oz Cascade @1, 2 oz Cascade dry hop in secondary (I've made this one twice)

7th & 8th - Jim Neilson's Hop Mothra - White Labs WLP001 California Ale, hops: 1 oz Magnum @30, 1 oz Cascade @20, 1 oz Liberty @10, 1 oz Cascade @10, 1 oz Cascade, .5 oz Amarillo, .5 Centennial and .5 Simcoe all dry hop in secondary (made twice)

9th - Jamil's Evil Twin - Wyeast 1056 American Ale, hops: .25 oz Columbus @60, .5 oz Columbus @20, .5oz Cascade @10, .25 Columbus @5, .75 Centennial @4, 1 oz Cascade @0, 1 oz Centennial @0, 1 oz Citra dry hopped in secondary

10th - Hop Mothra III - Wyeast 1056 American Ale, hops: 1 oz Magnum @ 30, 1 oz Cascade @20, 1 oz Liberty @10, 2 oz Cascade @10, .5 Cascade @5, 1 oz Cascade, 1 oz Amarillo, 1 oz Centennial, 1 oz Simcoe .5 Citra dry hopped in secondary

11th & 12th two IPA tests with treated water, Wyeast 1056 American Ale, hops: .5 oz Simcoe @ 30, .5oz Cascade @20, .5 Soriachi Ace @ 10, .5 Amarillo @10, .5 Ahtanum @5, .5 Cascade @2, .5oz Cascade, .5 oz Centennial, .5 oz Citra dry hopped in secondary

13th Joe Dumas' Grapefruit Bomb, Wyeast 1056 American Ale, hops: 1 oz Simcoe @60, 1 oz Simcoe @15, 1 oz Simcoe @10, 1 oz Simcoe @1, 1 oz Simcoe dry hopped in secondary

I'm all over the place, aren't I? Maybe I'm not putting enough hops in? Jamil's Evil Twin came closest to having some citrus flavor, but the spicy still overruled it. I forgot about it for months while it was being dry hopped.

I have not tried cold crashing, but now that I have a freezer with temperature control that seems like an easy test. I'm worried about a plate chiller and hops getting stuck in there. I'm contemplating either buying or building a counterflow chiller and running my current inadequate immersion chiller as a prechiller instead.

I would think that centennial and amarillo would be veyr good at giving a citrus flavor and aroma. Not sure what's going on.

This may not be helpful in getting you the citrus flavor you want the normal way, but have you considered actually adding some grapefruit juice or orange/lemon zest to the brew? Zesting is pretty easy to do late in the boil. The juice can be added during the primary.

I have never considered adding grapefruit juice or lemon zest to an IPA. I'm pretty certain the IPAs I'm trying to replicate don't add them: Dogfish 60, Sweetwater IPA, etc. If I could ever figure out my issue I might consider doing that in the future. I think the spicy/peppery notes would still overpower the zest.

TyTanium said:

Have you tried cold crashing with gelatin? I find it strips some of the harsher hop flavors and leaves the more delicate citrus/fruit character.

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I did this on one of my IPAs and never again. Stripped so much of the flavor/aroma.

IMO you need more late addition hops and more dry hop, like a total of 3oz for each.

My other question is timing. How long are you dry hopping for for and when are you bottling in respect to the dry hop. I mean, are you packaging immediately after the dry hop or waiting. Also, are you waiting until the beer has reached FG before dry hopping. Also, are you drinking your beer fresh? Hop aroma and flavor are very delicate and fade quickly, if the beer isn't fresh you could be losing a lot of what you are looking for.

My IPAs are in primary for about 10 days to FG and begin to clear, I use no less than 3 oz to dry hop for 5-7 days in primary and then package immediately and they are delicious. I use a total of 3 oz during the 10 minute to flameout as well

I did a .5 oz Columbus(60), 1 oz each Amarillo & Willamette(30), 1 oz each Amarillo & Willamette(flameout) quickly chill via counterflow and then dry hopped 1 oz Amarillo at 1 week and another at 2 weeks.

I needed to add another .5 oz of Columbus at the 60 minute mark as it lacks the underlying IBUs I look for in an IPA, but as far as citrus, it's very very citrusy.

As for yeast on this batch, I threw in 2 or 3 packets of Cooper's dry hydrated. My basement maintains temps between 63 and 67 and that's where I ferment. Unfortunately, that means my beer is probably fermenting just a bit higher than that which is why I quite often get just a little bit of a hot flavor.

First idea I had was yeast, but you are using quite a few different ones. Are you using new smackpacks/vials each time or are you repitching slurry/washing? If its the latter, that may be the culprit. Second idea was the water. Instead of distilled and adding a bunch of minerals, I would get some bottled spring water (1 gallon or 2.5 gallon jugs) add a little gypsum to it and then brew an IPA with centennial, amarillo, citra, etc. I would eliminate one variable at a time, otherwise it could be anything.

Try cold crashing before dry-hopping. Ferment at least 2 weeks, cold crash at least a few days. Gelatin has its uses, but you should keep it away from hop oils.

Try extending your boil times to 90 minutes to help break down protein.

as previously mentioned, fast chills can also precipate protein out. Though not possible with whirlpooling.

If you think your short on hops try adding more. I did a beer recently with 24oz of hops and it really could have used some more. But at least you'll get an idea of what larger amounts can do.

Also try a beer with mash hops, FWH, whirlpool hops, and dry hops.

Try hops that contribute BIG flavors. Northern Brewer, Chinook come to mind for boil hops. Citra have massive flavor for dry-hop.

duboman said:

IMO you need more late addition hops and more dry hop, like a total of 3oz for each.

My other question is timing. How long are you dry hopping for for and when are you bottling in respect to the dry hop. I mean, are you packaging immediately after the dry hop or waiting. Also, are you waiting until the beer has reached FG before dry hopping. Also, are you drinking your beer fresh? Hop aroma and flavor are very delicate and fade quickly, if the beer isn't fresh you could be losing a lot of what you are looking for.

My IPAs are in primary for about 10 days to FG and begin to clear, I use no less than 3 oz to dry hop for 5-7 days in primary and then package immediately and they are delicious. I use a total of 3 oz during the 10 minute to flameout as well

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I've kegged my IPAs in all instances except Jamil's Evil Twin. I transfer to secondary after 10 days and the FG hasn't moved for a couple of days. I dry hop in secondary usually for 10 days and then transfer off the hops into a keg immediately. Carbonation takes about 7 days, but you know I'm tasting the whole way through and directly out of secondary and I have yet to have those citrusy notes so I doubt they were ever there.

So it sounds like I need to triple my dry hoping. I thought dry hoping mostly gave an aroma? My IPAs always smell amazing, but it doesn't translate into the taste.

TriggerFingers said:

First idea I had was yeast, but you are using quite a few different ones. Are you using new smackpacks/vials each time or are you repitching slurry/washing? If its the latter, that may be the culprit. Second idea was the water. Instead of distilled and adding a bunch of minerals, I would get some bottled spring water (1 gallon or 2.5 gallon jugs) add a little gypsum to it and then brew an IPA with centennial, amarillo, citra, etc. I would eliminate one variable at a time, otherwise it could be anything.

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I mostly use new yeast, especially lately. I've done some repitching in the past but that's typically with other styles. I can try the spring water approach. I have no idea what is in it though. How much gypsum would you recommend adding?

Dry hopping with more hops will translate into more aroma for sure and some additional flavor. Have you tried dry hopping in the keg? I am not sure why you are not getting the amount of citrus you are looking for. Are you talking about the kind of flavor you would actually get if you added a citrus peel??

Perhaps if so, you can try to add a bit of crushed coriander to the boil, last 10 minutes, maybe 1/2 oz. Coriander lends a pretty good citrus punch like in a Wit or Belgian Wheat beer.

grathan said:

Gelatin has its uses, but you should keep it away from hop oils.

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Does gelatin strip out hop aroma / flavor? Please explain.

novafire said:

Does gelatin strip out hop aroma / flavor? Please explain.

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It can, as it drops the yeast and proteins and clears the beer it can pull the hop oils down with it. Many will first use gelatin and then dry hop to avoid this issue.

novafire said:

Does gelatin strip out hop aroma / flavor? Please explain.

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Yes, but IME most of what it strips are the harsher flavors. If you're going for aggressive throat-burning bitterness, don't use gelatin. However, I've found that with these harsher flavors removed the fruity/citrus flavors shine through.

Cold crashing before dry hopping is also a good option to drop out the yeast first, but even when I've done that I've still had some "harsh" dry hops.

Every time I've used gelatin I've liked the "after" far more than the "before". And I've never thought "wow, where'd all my hop aroma go!"

Again, this has been my experience. Others may differ.

Edit: I only use a small amount...1/2tsp in 5 gallons

I am with TyTanium....1/2 tsp for 5 gallons will be enough. It will make the bitterness pop just a little more. Even though I have well water, I almost exclusively brew with bottled spring water or with a high proportion of spring water.

Try one recipe that you really want to brew (or drink). Brew it once and see what you think. Try to control everything about your process from mash, water, yeast, temps, etc. If your beer still comes out spicy, then try altering one thing. I really have a feeling its the water.

So Jamil's ET was the only one you bottled? Try bottling half of the next batch you try. When you bottle you need to give IPA's about 10-14 days to carb to not taste completely green. I would then compare the kegged to the bottled version.

Just keep at it....you'll get there!

duboman said:

Dry hopping with more hops will translate into more aroma for sure and some additional flavor. Have you tried dry hopping in the keg? I am not sure why you are not getting the amount of citrus you are looking for. Are you talking about the kind of flavor you would actually get if you added a citrus peel??

Perhaps if so, you can try to add a bit of crushed coriander to the boil, last 10 minutes, maybe 1/2 oz. Coriander lends a pretty good citrus punch like in a Wit or Belgian Wheat beer.

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I have dry hopped twice in the keg. I felt like I got some grassy notes, but that's about it. I don't believe the flavor I taste from other IPAs come from any sort of fruit, rind or spice addition. Has anyone ever had a Sweetwater IPA? That's what I'm going for. Or 5 Seasons in Atlanta has the best IPA I've ever tasted called HopGasm.

What cleaner and sanitizer are you using? Peppery/spicey notes for me came before I started using campden tablets to rid the water of chlorine(or chloramine, can't remember which). Since you built your water up on the last beer from distilled you can rule that out, but maybe the chlorine is still the culprit from your cleaner/sanitzer? Maybe there are something in your keg/lines bottles?

If you haven't yet, I recommend check out scottland's blog, specifically this post: http://www.bertusbrewery.com/2012/08/how-to-brew-better-ipas.html

jabergess said:

I have dry hopped twice in the keg. I felt like I got some grassy notes, but that's about it. I don't believe the flavor I taste from other IPAs come from any sort of fruit, rind or spice addition. Has anyone ever had a Sweetwater IPA? That's what I'm going for. Or 5 Seasons in Atlanta has the best IPA I've ever tasted called HopGasm.

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I just googled sweetwater IPA clone and several hits and kits came up so have you tried that? You might find something that hits what you are trying to achieve!

brettwasbtd said:

What cleaner and sanitizer are you using? Peppery/spicey notes for me came before I started using campden tablets to rid the water of chlorine(or chloramine, can't remember which). Since you built your water up on the last beer from distilled you can rule that out, but maybe the chlorine is still the culprit from your cleaner/sanitzer? Maybe there are something in your keg/lines bottles?

If you haven't yet, I recommend check out scottland's blog, specifically this post: http://www.bertusbrewery.com/2012/08/how-to-brew-better-ipas.html

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I use PBW cleaner and Star San for sanitizing my keg and equipment and LLC for my keg lines. I hadn't really considered my lines before. Since the bottled beer came out nearly the same I'm not certain that is the issue but I can certainly try a different cleaner.

duboman said:

I just googled sweetwater IPA clone and several hits and kits came up so have you tried that? You might find something that hits what you are trying to achieve!

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Yeah, the Joe Dumas' Grapefruit Bomb was supposed to be a Sweetwater clone. That was the last one I was so meticulous with on the fermentation temps, distilled water, etc. I really thought I was going to figure it out on that one. Nope!

With the kegging system as a possible cause, have you made any non IPA's that you have thrown through the same kegs/lines? Does this spicy flavor follow to other styles?
How do the gravity reading samples taste? Is the spicy note there as well?

I really like this guy's forum. I think too many of us follow our IBU calculators but if anyone has tried a PTY or PTE clone those things go through the roof on IBU. I just brewed a 140IBU IIPA and it still is not there. There is obviously a serious art to when you add what hop and quantity isn't the only thing that matters but if you want citrus, you've gotta load that kettle up with citrusy hops! I would just go for broke and load up that kettle with citrusy hops in the last 15min (do a continuous hop until flameout or something) and see what happens. Spend the extra $$ and it may be worth it! I hope that you get that perfect hop belch, I know I love thats my favorite belch variety...

http://www.bertusbrewery.com/2012/08/how-to-brew-better-ipas.html

One more thing: I swear by the first wort hop addition. It will bring out the hop flavor more than just adding the hops in the kettle after the wort starts to boil. I'm not sure it will enhance the citrus character in your beer but it will enhance it nonetheless.

duboman said:

IMO you need more late addition hops and more dry hop, like a total of 3oz for each.

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^^^^^^^This.^^^^^^^^

You're not nearly hopping enough. My last IPA had 4oz. at flameout

Just a thought, and if I missed this earlier I apologize. Are you making starters with your yeast? The vials and smack packs are going to have too small of a yeast count if you aren't using a starter, and that could result in the spicy/peppery flavors you are finding (from phenols).

fermentation temps? O2? Pitch rates? Seems like a fermentation problem and not a recipe problem.

Here's one:

What are you fermenting in?
Glass is the only fermenters I have that don't end up giving me your problem.

Maybe you should step back from trying to clone a beer, or make a big hop bomb beer, and make a few SMaSH batches. That way you can adjust just one thing per batch, and trace the source.

If you really want to find out the exact spot where things are going "wrong," the only way to do it is break down your process and analyze every step.

You need to find a process that works for you, and STICK to that process. I tried making a few big IPA's and they sucked, so I took a step back, and started breaking it down, and doing SMaSH batches so I could analyze how every step, ingredient, temperature, etc. was contributing to the final beer.

And a big perk is that SMaSH beers can be delicious.

I also think you aren't adding enough dry-hop. Biologically speaking, aroma (smell) is just as important to taste as actually tasting. Maybe you need to up the dryhop until you find a level that works for you. And there is no doubt that dry hopping changes a beer. I brewed an amarillo-vienna smash, and dry hopped half, and left the other not dry-hopped. The difference was astounding; so much so that the dry-hopped version has been drank and gone, and the non-dry-hopped is sitting around, and I don't think I'll ever drink it.

tl;dr-
Simplify your brew until you know what everything do!

Great thread - thanks for letting us participate in the problem solving.

I really like the idea of more late hops, and I would consider brewing a 3.5 gal batch just to see if cooling faster is also a good idea.

If you want to take it another step, try doing a long primary to minimize your chance of oxidation, and let the yeast condition the beer as much as possible: ferment your 3.5 gals for 4 weeks in the 5 gal carboy, then rack to a keg and dry hop in the keg (maybe leaf centennial in a hop bag) at room temperature for 7 days before cooling and force carbonating.

Good luck and eager to hear what works for you!

RedShirt said:

I would consider brewing a 3.5 gal batch just to see if cooling faster is also a good idea.

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Cooling faster is ALWAYS a good idea - it's just a question of whether or not that's what will make the difference in solving the problem he's encountering.

Come to think of it, is there even such thing as cooling your wort too fast? If you could cool your boiling wort to pitching temperature instantaneously, would that be ideal, or are there some problems I'm not thinking of?

kombat said:

Cooling faster is ALWAYS a good idea - it's just a question of whether or not that's what will make the difference in solving the problem he's encountering.

Come to think of it, is there even such thing as cooling your wort too fast? If you could cool your boiling wort to pitching temperature instantaneously, would that be ideal, or are there some problems I'm not thinking of?

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Only reason not to would be for post boil hops addition.

If I could cool instantly to whatever temp I wanted, I would cool first to 170-175 and add post-boil hops, hold temp for about 5 minutes, then cool instantly to pitching temp. Actually, maybe you could just add the hops right after boil and you'd only need to hold for like 20-30 seconds.

Someone needs to come up with an instant cooling device..

I wonder what would happen if your poured some liquid nitrogen in there?

m3n00b said:

I wonder what would happen if your poured some liquid nitrogen in there?

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Or better yet, liquid oxygen. Chilling and aeration in one easy step!

kombat said:

Or better yet, liquid oxygen. Chilling and aeration in one easy step!

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I sense a big boom of flying hot wort as the liquid transitions to gas immediately upon touching the wort. Sounds like something to watch through a blast shield

DrunkleJon said:

I sense a big boom of flying hot wort as the liquid transitions to gas immediately upon touching the wort. Sounds like something to watch through a blast shield

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Maybe if the kettle had a lid/shield that you attach to contain the blast. After the blast, it would settle out into nice, cooled wort ready to pitch. Hmmm.. somebody somewhere has to try this out in a lab somewhere.