astringent

My American Stout placed 2nd in this years Kona Brewing Contest. One comment from both judges was the word "astringent". Slight taste, I don't sparge but do use city water in my BIAB set up. Would distilled water help? I"d like to take 1st place next year.

When you all grain brew you can't use distilled water because the yeast need some minerals in the beer. Try bottled spring water or build water from distilled and mineral additions.

It's possible that the judges perceived astringency from the effects of the chlorination of the water too. What does your city use for that and how do you deal with that?

RM-MN said:

When you all grain brew you can't use distilled water because the yeast need some minerals in the beer. Try bottled spring water or build water from distilled and mineral additions.

It's possible that the judges perceived astringency from the effects of the chlorination of the water too. What does your city use for that and how do you deal with that?

Click to expand...

Sure, you can use distilled water. I use 100% RO water (very close to distilled) to sparge. That's actually recommended to avoid astringency in all beers. Sparging with water with low alkalinity is the way to go.

Normally, using a lot of darker grains in a beer does create some astrigency- but if it's excessive, it could be a pH issue during the mash or sparge. Sparging with 100% distilled water could totally fix a too-high sparge pH. Since this is a no-sparge beer, though, I'm leaning towards mash pH issues.

Do you check mash pH at all? You can use distilled water with 5 grams of Calcium chloride per 5 gallon batch and that would provide enough minerals for the beer.

Thanks all, I have never checked mash ph. I'm gonna locate a test kit or meter and check. The only reason I ask is for the next contest as I've never had anyone else mention it.

Given the volcanic geology in HI, I expect that your tap water is fairly soft and non-alkaline already. Its probably only a few notches off of distilled now. Using distilled may not provide much benefit in the way you are seeking.

Oversparging could be a problem, but since you BIAB, there shouldn't be that problem. If there is little alkalinity in your tap water, its possible that a bit of alkalinity is needed in the mash to help neutralize excess acidity from the roast and crystal malts. Since your water probably doesn't have much sodium in it, using baking soda in the mash may be an acceptable way of neutralizing excess acidity and maintaining the mash pH in a desirable range. A program like Bru'n Water can assist in calculating if a bit of alkalinity is needed in the mash.

Sometimes roast barley and or black malts can leach off an ashy charcoal like flavor that is somewhat astringent, depending on you water profile and mash pH. I find adding some gypsum or chalk can help to mitigate this flavor.

it's also possible that the mill you use is crushing too finely and your extracting astringency from the crushed husks because of that

Slight astringency isn't a bad thing in an American stout...the comment may not have been a "bad" one.

Can have a bit of roast-derived astringency, but this character should not be excessive.

Click to expand...

http://www.bjcp.org/2008styles/style13.php#1e

Try a half campden tab. Lots of municipalities are switching to chloramine as it is more stable in the pipes that free chlorine, unfortunately, it can't be boiled off effectively for us as brewers. I switched to campden and it completely eliminated the astringent off flavors for me.

Mahalo, will take all suggestions into consideration on the next brew.

Bought a test kit and the water tested like 8.2. Wow the test strip was lite pink. Could be a problem huh?

It isn't the pH of the water so much as the pH of the mash. Your water could be very basic but with little capacity to keep the pH there and the mash pH would be fine or it could be slightly basic with high capacity so the grains couldn't balance it out by themselves. You really have to make a batch of beer and test the mash pH immediately to see what it is and make your adjustment then if necessary.

patthebrewer said:

Try a half campden tab.

Click to expand...

Do you add it to your water as you bring it up to mash temp so it is dissolved or add it to the mash? Thanks.

RM-MN said:

It isn't the pH of the water so much as the pH of the mash. Your water could be very basic but with little capacity to keep the pH there and the mash pH would be fine or it could be slightly basic with high capacity so the grains couldn't balance it out by themselves. You really have to make a batch of beer and test the mash pH immediately to see what it is and make your adjustment then if necessary.

Click to expand...

Bozo Me. Brewed a beer and didn't thing to test the mash til it was boiling away. Try again next week.

test strips aren't really all that accurate either, it's best to use a pH meter. The strips can be off by a few 10th's of a point which can make all the difference when you are mashing.

AZ_IPA said:

Slight astringency isn't a bad thing in an American stout...the comment may not have been a "bad" one.

Click to expand...

I'd consider this. Did the judges actually say there was too much astringency for the style or were they simply giving you a full assessment of it's profile? They are judging the beer within its style guidelines. If astringency is will point it out. Then the question is whether it is too much/too little or an appropriate amount. If the astringency is not out of range for the style, then why try to remove it?

You said you'd like to take first place next year. Are you sure it was astringency that knocked you out of first place. It seems like overkill to kill yourself trying to remove all astringency if it is allowed in the style and especially if the beer that beat yours was also astringent.

cluckk said:

I'd consider this. Did the judges actually say there was too much astringency for the style or were they simply giving you a full assessment of it's profile? They are judging the beer within its style guidelines. If astringency is will point it out. Then the question is whether it is too much/too little or an appropriate amount. If the astringency is not out of range for the style, then why try to remove it?

You said you'd like to take first place next year. Are you sure it was astringency that knocked you out of first place. It seems like overkill to kill yourself trying to remove all astringency if it is allowed in the style and especially if the beer that beat yours was also astringent.

Click to expand...

Good points. Thanks for your comments. Here is what the judges said:
Judge 1 (41/50 points)
Aroma:10/12 Med-hi roast-some coffee-low burnt aroma-low hop
Apperance:2/3 Black-opague Medium Tan head-disipates a bit
Flavor: 16/20:Med-hi roast on flavor too-some rich coffee character-Med to low malt sweetness-Medium hop flavor and bitterness-Medium filirh(sweet to dry) [no idea what the word is after Medium]
Mouthfeel:4/5: Med body & carbonation-Some roasty astringency as typical-Some Alcohol warmth
Overall impression 9/10 Roasty, bitter, and fairly hoppy--Nice malt complexity w/coffee--Well made Am Stout

Judge 2 (42/50 points)
Aroma 10/12 malt and hops quite pleasant
Appearance 3/3 dark brown and opague - creamy tan head w/decent head retention
Flavor 17/20 hops & malt balance nicely - roasty - nice dry finish
Mouthfeel 4/5 medium body, creamy and warm, slight astringent
Overall 8/10 very nice beer w/high drinkability - well balanced - nice job

Beginning to think astringency was not the problem. So the question is what's needed to up my scores in the Aroma and Flavor categories?

C-Rider said:

Good points. Thanks for your comments. Here is what the judges said:
Judge 1 (41/50 points)
Aroma:10/12 Med-hi roast-some coffee-low burnt aroma-low hop
Apperance:2/3 Black-opague Medium Tan head-disipates a bit
Flavor: 16/20:Med-hi roast on flavor too-some rich coffee character-Med to low malt sweetness-Medium hop flavor and bitterness-Medium filirh(sweet to dry) [no idea what the word is after Medium]
Mouthfeel:4/5: Med body & carbonation-Some roasty astringency as typical-Some Alcohol warmth
Overall impression 9/10 Roasty, bitter, and fairly hoppy--Nice malt complexity w/coffee--Well made Am Stout

Judge 2 (42/50 points)
Aroma 10/12 malt and hops quite pleasant
Appearance 3/3 dark brown and opague - creamy tan head w/decent head retention
Flavor 17/20 hops & malt balance nicely - roasty - nice dry finish
Mouthfeel 4/5 medium body, creamy and warm, slight astringent
Overall 8/10 very nice beer w/high drinkability - well balanced - nice job

Beginning to think astringency was not the problem. So the question is what's needed to up my scores in the Aroma and Flavor categories?

Click to expand...

First things first, great job. Two scores in the forties is a great accomplishment.

As for improvement, it sounds like these judges may want a little more body and head retention. You may just add a little carapils. Just remember, it also depends on the judges. Scores are very subjective.

Ya, 41/42 is a pretty epic score.

Two quotes from this:
(1) "Some roasty astringency as typical"

(2) "Well made Am Stout."

They say the astringency is typical to the style and your beer is a well made example of the style. Forget the astringency, unless you find it uncomfortable, and concentrate on other things--like head retention, as pointed out earlier. With something fairly sweet and full bodied I like a bit of astringency for a nice clean finish--like tannin in a big chewy red wine.

cluckk said:

Two quotes from this:
(1) "Some roasty astringency as typical"

(2) "Well made Am Stout."

They say the astringency is typical to the style and your beer is a well made example of the style. Forget the astringency, unless you find it uncomfortable, and concentrate on other things--like head retention, as pointed out earlier. With something fairly sweet and full bodied I like a bit of astringency for a nice clean finish--like tannin in a big chewy red wine.

Click to expand...

Good points! It's still worthwhile to check mash pH, or at least use mabrungard's spreadsheet to guestimate the mash pH. But your comments and scores are excellent.

In one of the judge's comments, it seems like a wee bit more crystal might pushed this to a higher than 16/20 score- but 16/20 is a great score for flavor and you don't really want to tweak too much!

Great scores. I suspect it will be hard to directly address the issues brought up because you are so close that much is personal preference. For example, one like the amount of head and the other thought it needed a little more. Obviously that last point in appearance can be really hard to get but it is probably worth trying to raise the head retention a little if you can without changing the obviously great flavor.

The one place I would work n if I ever made a beer this good would be the aroma. Those 2 missing points seem to be recoverable. It is also the first impression (appearance is only 3 points) for significant points. This is where I'd look.

Also, you don't know what the winning beer scored. It could have been identical scores or one point different and simple batch variation or tasting order or any of a number of things not in your control could reverse the finish next year with you on top and the other brewer taking second.

Again Mahalo for all the comments. All will be considered for the next contest.

OK, did this again following same basic recipe but increased the late hops just a little. Took a mash ph reading w/one of those "dip strips". Came out about 5 or 5.2. I that ok for a stout?

Low pH doesn't cause astringency it's higher ones that do, aka when you are getting up into the 5.7ish+ range. This is why some people acidify their sparge water because the mash pH will actually rise over time and while one is sparging which is why astringency and tannins can be extracted. 5 or 5.2 is on the lower end of the acceptable range but still perfectly fine. Unfortunately, those pH strips really aren't that accurate so generally it's best to get a meter. That being said, dark grains are acidic and bring the pH down. You don't want it to get too low as that will denature enzymes but with that reading you are fine. The "recommended" pH for darker beers is a bit higher but I wouldn't worry too much about that. If you wanted to try to raise it you could add some alkalinity with baking soda, chalk, or pickling lime but it probably isn't all that necessary for you and you don't really want to be shooting in the dark with that stuff and accidentally raise the pH too high.

Hopper5000 said:

Low pH doesn't cause astringency it's higher ones that do, aka when you are getting up into the 5.7ish+ range. This is why some people acidify their sparge water because the mash pH will actually rise over time and while one is sparging which is why astringency and tannins can be extracted. 5 or 5.2 is on the lower end of the acceptable range but still perfectly fine. Unfortunately, those pH strips really aren't that accurate so generally it's best to get a meter. That being said, dark grains are acidic and bring the pH down. You don't want it to get too low as that will denature enzymes but with that reading you are fine. The "recommended" pH for darker beers is a bit higher but I wouldn't worry too much about that. If you wanted to try to raise it you could add some alkalinity with baking soda, chalk, or pickling lime but it probably isn't all that necessary for you and you don't really want to be shooting in the dark with that stuff and accidentally raise the pH too high.

Click to expand...

Mahalo Yooper. Guess I'll leave it as is and submit the same recipe next year and see what happens. Either way it's one of my favorites and that's what counts most.

Really the only way for us to help you is for you to post the recipe. Reading the judging notes made me thirsty!

BackAlley said:

Really the only way for us to help you is for you to post the recipe. Reading the judging notes made me thirsty!

Click to expand...

I can do that. And I'm gonna add it to "my recipe" link since it is a proven winner.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is a 1.9 gallon or so brew BIAB
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
3 lbs 8.0 oz--Pale Malt (2 Row) US ------- 72.9 %
6.4 oz-------Roasted Barley (300.0 SRM) 8.3 %
4.8 oz-------Barley, Flaked (1.7 SRM)----- 6.3 %
4.8 oz-------Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L ---6.3 %
4.8 oz-------Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) --6.3 %
0.40 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [15.00 %]--Boil 60.0 min
0.50 oz Cascade [5.30 %] - Aroma ---------Steep15.0 min
0.20 oz Cascade [5.30 %] - Aroma ---------Steep 5.0 min
2.00 oz Malto-Dextrine ---------------------Boil 5.0 mins)
1.0 pkg Safale American #US-05
---------------------------------------------------------------
Est Original Gravity: 1.066 SG Measured Original Gravity: 1.072 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.015 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.018 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 6.7 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 7.1 %
Bitterness: 59.6 IBUs Calories: 246.0 kcal/12oz
Est Color: 41.8 SRM
---------------------------------------------------------------------
60 min mash in a Coleman cooler and 60 min boil
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Mahalo!

Your roasted barley and chocolate add up to quite a big percentage. Is that amount something you've tweaked upwards over time?

Thanks again, can't wait to try it.

Low mash pH can reduce the extraction of flavor and color from roasted grains. So it is reasonable that the roast percentage in this recipe was boosted to account for that phenomena. Moving the mash pH into a more desirable range of 5.4 to 5.6 may require that a recipe be further revised to reduce roast components to account for the 'improved' extraction.

BackAlley said:

Mahalo!

Your roasted barley and chocolate add up to quite a big percentage. Is that amount something you've tweaked upwards over time?

Thanks again, can't wait to try it.

Click to expand...

No twiking. Just started that way. LOL :cross: