I'm scared...

So my wife tells me a few minutes ago that the lady who lives three doors down (who I've met once and knows I brew) came by to say that her ex used to brew, and she had some bottles laying around. She left them outside for me in case I wanted them, otherwise they were going in the trash.

Okay, so I figured there was a huge stash of empties. Since I don't usually bottle, I wasn't that excited.

But I got to the boxes, and realized... "Hey, these are pretty heavy. There's beer in here!"

I got them into my garage, and it's 16 bombers of homebrew. Completely unlabeled, I have no idea what's in there. I don't know her ex, and I've been brewing in the garage for a year, so obviously if he'd been around in the past year, he'd probably have stopped by to say hello. So these beers are most likely at least a year old. I have no clue how they were stored. I have no clue whether this guy had a clue what he was doing making beer.

In short, I think I have to try some of these beers... Ya know, for science and all. But I'm a tad bit scared!

Some..You must try them all...Like you said for science..

try and let us know

Polboy said:

try and let us know

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Or have someone close to you let us know...if you don't make it.

If your fingers go numb, use your nose to tap out an update.

This is epic... Somebody must try these!! I don't care if it is you or your mentally challenged cousin, I have to know how this goes!

Oh, they will be tried... I guess I'll have to document it as I go...

Give some to someone else to drink and see what happens.... If its good, pour the rest for you.

Go ahead and chill them and crack one open.
Your nose should let you know if there is anything dreadfully wrong!

What the hell is there to be scared of? Nothing pathogenic can exist in beer. So you can't get sick. Why do people get amped up about this? It's not a big deal....

How many times do we have to say this. Why are people freaking afraid of this????

Beer doesn't go "bad" unless your sanitization is weak. Since nothing PATHOGENIC can exist in beer/wine/cider/mead, there should never be a reason to ever fear tasting something like this, no matter how old it is. Yeah, it may taste like crap, it may be vinegar, but NOTHING that could happen, could ever cause harm to anyone.

It's not worth passing by on something that could be amazing, because of fear.....

Noone thinks twice about drinking old wine do they?????

Beer is really no different than wine, homebrew or otherwise. Properly stored it can last and be drinkable for 100s of years.

To put it in perspective, in the Dec 07 Zymurgy Charlie Papazian reviewed bottles of homebrew going back to the first AHC competition that he had stored, and none of them went bad, some had not held up but most of them he felt were awesome...We're talking over 20 years worth of beers.

This is a great thread about one of our guys tasting 4-5 years of his stored brew.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/revisiting-my-classics-160672/

And I brewed an og 1.150, 150 IBU barleywine that I won't be opening for 5 years.

Not to mention the fact that there are vertical tasting for certain beers like Stone epic, where people collect each years beer and then sample a flight of them going back in time.

I just had this expericence not too long ago... We tried 48 year old beer today. One was interesting and drinkable, and one was gnarly.

Mbowenze has a thread about tasting an over 100 year old beer recently. And In my history thread there's a video of the OZ and James Drink to Britain tv series where they taste a beer older than that.....one that goes back to Napoleanic times iirc.

I think he might have been kidding? About being scared? But, still great info Revvy. I had never heard of drinking really old beer until I started looking at this board. I need to start making alot more beer so I can keep my hands off of some and age it for a long while, lol.

Maybe the guy put some arsenic in them hoping that his ex would get thirsty and he could save on alimony.

EEEEEEEEEEEEEKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK^^^^^^^^^^

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

I'd pass on some random guy's forgotten home brew.

Revvy, I know the "old beer debate" is a hot button issue for you, and I completely agree with you, but I think the hesitation comes from the fact that he doesn't know that the contents of those bottles are in fact beer. If you know for a fact that a brewer who knew what he was doing had filled those bottles there would be nothing to be worried about other than drinking something that possibly doesn't taste too good.

Revvy said:

What the hell is there to be scared of? Nothing pathogenic can exist in beer. So you can't get sick. Why do people get amped up about this? It's not a big deal....

How many times do we have to say this. Why are people freaking afraid of this????

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Revvy... Sorry, the faux fear in the post was meant to be playful and exaggerated. I know it's not going to kill me, and I'm not going to go blind.

The "fear" was that when this bottle is opened, the aroma is going to knock me across the room, or I'll have a gusher spraying up to the ceiling, or that what I open is going to be a complete and total drainpour.

I don't have a worry about aging beer. I just took a bottle of a collaborative club barrel-aging project to a tasting, and that's now about a 2 1/2 year old beer. It was quite well received.

The difference is that I (and my hb club members) brewed that beer... I know how it's been handled and stored over time. I know it's not infected, or crappy, and thus I knew when I carried that bottle with me that it was good.

I don't know that about this beer. I don't know if the brewer has any talent. I don't know if there's a latent infection. I don't know how old it is. I don't know if it's been stored well, or if it's been in this lady's garage going through 25 degree temp swings every day for the last 3 years. All I know is that there's what I assume to be beer in these bottles.

So I'm going to try them. And if they came from someone I trusted, I'd be excited about that. Since they have not, I'm frankly expecting them to be utter rubbish. And I'm hoping that I'll be pleasantly surprised.

The greater fear to me is drinking something that the fellow "accidentally left behind" with his ex. I'm sure a little yeast and some Coopers drops would carb up just about anything.

bwarbiany said:

I don't know that about this beer. I don't know if the brewer has any talent. I don't know if there's a latent infection. I don't know how old it is. I don't know if it's been stored well, or if it's been in this lady's garage going through 25 degree temp swings every day for the last 3 years. All I know is that there's what I assume to be beer in these bottles.

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But the point is, you never know until you try. I don't know why people always have a hesitation....You open it, if it smells like crap you dump it, no big deal...but you don't know something until you try. THAT's the thing I don't get about threads like this....Why there's ever ANY hesitation. If you take the "I can't get sick" idea off the table (which a lot of people don't KNOW) then there's no reason not to try.

Do people just not have inherent curiosity about things any more? That's why I don't get. Not that it's a "Hot Button Issue" or whatever ktblunden meant, I don't care what you do. I just don't understand why there's ever a hesitation to open up a bottle and give it a whiff and maybe a taste where beer's concerned.....No one EVER has this issue with wine....Homemade or otherwise.

It just seems that folks don't want to try new things anymore. No sense of adventure or something. I love trying new things, whether it's activities or food, or drinks...good or bad. For example I did a wedding at a Lavender farm last night and ALL the food and drink there was made with lavender. I had Lavender Ice Cream last night, and it was the BEST freaking thing I think I ever ate. I'm blown away by it. And I got talking to the owners of the farm and mentioned I was a homebrewer and Winemaker, and they got all excited, and want me to come back and get some lavender to make something with....And the gave me a jar of culinary lavender to play with.

Haha. He got it from the EX. Maybe the original brewer left it behind for his EX to drink. That doesn't give you at least a little pause?

Cromwell said:

Haha. He got it from the EX. Maybe the original brewer left it behind for his EX to drink. That doesn't give you at least a little pause?

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No, because more than likely it just got left behind in the stress or pressure of the move...

Revvy said:

What the hell is there to be scared of? Nothing pathogenic can exist in beer.

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except, you know, c. botulinum

Revvy said:

That's why I don't get. Not that it's a "Hot Button Issue" or whatever ktblunden meant, I don't care what you do.

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What I meant was any time there's an "is this safe to drink" thread there's a guarantee you'll be posting in it. I don't mean any offense by that and I'm not saying it's in any way wrong. To the contrary you are trying to educate and dispel a particular misconception about beer. You just come off...exuberant about the subject.

motobrewer said:

except, you know, c. botulism

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Except we know it CAN'T exist in fermented beer.... That's been proven as well.


*sigh*

gruntingfrog said:

The bacterial spore Clostridium botulinum is found in soil and subsequently can make it to into anything that grows in dirt. Of course this does include grain. The spores themselves are not what causes botulism. The toxin that causes botulism is a byproduct of their reproduction which only occurs in anaerobic, non-acidic (above ph 4.6) environments.

The spores themselves are killed by boiling (some robust strains can survive an hour or more, but it's not common). Once dead, of course they can't reproduce so they can't produce the toxin which causes botulism in your beer. Additionally, the average ph of fermented beer is between 4.0 and 4.4, which is acidic enough to keep any spores that did survive the boil from reproducing.

Simply put, don't worry about it.

FDA Page on Botulism
http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~mow/chap2.html

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Can you get a PATHOGEN from beer. No. NO *NO* Did I make that clear? You have a ZERO chance of pathogens in beer, wine, distilled beverages. PERIOD!

Pathogens are described as organisms that are harmful and potentially life threatening to humans. These are some 1400+ known species overall encompasing viruses, bacteria, fungi, protozoa, and helminths. Of that group, we are only interested in those that can be foodborne. Quite simply, if it can't survive in food, it isn't in beer. That knocks out all but bacteria and fungi. Viruses need very specific circumstances to be passed around... like on the lip of a glass or bottle, not the beer in it. **Ahhh...CHOOO!**

Pathogens as a rule are very fastidious beasts. Meaning that they want very specific temperatures, acidity, nutrients and other conditions to thrive.

Bacteria that *could* live in wort, cannot survive even a little bit of fermentation. There are several reasons for this. One is in the 'magic' of hops. It is the isomerized alpha acids that provide a preservative effect to the beer, which happens to inhibit pathogens! Good deal for fresh wort!

Another reason is the drop in pH from fermentation. Next, yeast emit their own enzymes and byproducts, all in an effort to make the environment hostile to other creatures. The major one is alcohol, of course, but their enzymes will break down less vigorous organisms and they become sources of trace nutrition. Now the latter is very minor compared to the effect of alcohol, but it exists! Most of the time these enzymes work on the wort, not organisms until late in the process. Good deal for beer! ...uh, wine too.

Oh, Botulism specifically... did you know that this is an anaerobic pathogen? It's toxin is one of the few that is broken down by boiling. Did you know tht it is strongly inhibited by isomerized alpha acids, even in water? Since fresh wort has a healthy amount of oxygen in it, the beastie cannot even get started, then once the O2 is used up, it doesn't have a chance against the hops or the yeast.

All that is left are a handful of acid producing bacteria that'll ruin a batch of beer. Overall, there are less than 200 organisms that can survive in beer and lend flavor effects. None of these for very long, or very often. Lambic being the sole exception, and if pathogens *could* survive, that'd be the style where you find 'em.

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I guess it illustrates the necessity when the same misinformation keeps popping up.

botulism has been shown to exist and grow in tomatoes, which have a pH < 4.6. last year there was an FDA notice about french-made tomato paste containing botulism.

it also has been shown to survive long (3-4 hour) boils.

botulism could survive in beer. i'm not saying it's likely.

i'm not suggesting in the least that the OP is at risk for botulism. it's just kind of strange that you are on a crusade to stop people from parroting misinformation

ktblunden said:

I guess it illustrates the necessity when the same misinformation keeps popping up.

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Yup....It's sad actually. Add to the fact that every scared noob gloms on anything like it and causes incessant worries, it's like trying to put out a forest fire, with only a garden hose.

motobrewer said:

botulism has been shown to exist and grow in tomatoes, which have a pH < 4.6. last year there was an FDA notice about french-made tomato paste containing botulism.

it also has been shown to survive long (3-4 hour) boils.

botulism could survive in beer. i'm not saying it's likely.

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Show me a hopped and fermented tomato paste or tomato beer that is found to have botulism, and I'll think that analogy has any merit to this discussion.......

Otherwise I'm done with this baseless discussion.

motobrewer said:

except, you know, c. botulinum

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Not true, or at the very least extraordinarily (I don't know how to further empahsize this point in text other than bold/italic/underlined!) unlikely... The bacteria itself and the toxin are destroyed by boiling. While the spores can theoretically survive, they cannot make someone ill unless they can start to grow and produce more toxin. Between the alcohol content and pH, beer is not a capable media for that to occur. Adults, in general, can not acquire gastrointestinal botulism...Unless you're feeding beer to your infant (and even then, as with honey, it would be extremely unlikely), it cannot cause actual botulin disease.

This PDF from the CDC is fairly in-depth and definitive...

biochemedic said:

extraordinarily unlikely... The bacteria itself and the toxin are destroyed by boiling. While the spores can theoretically survive, they cannot make someone ill unless they can start to grow and produce more toxin.

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that is exactly my point, and stance.

no-boil brewing?

I dunno, man...I hear that fermenting in plastic can be pretty toxic.

motobrewer said:

that is exactly my point, and stance.

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So why bring up something that is so infinitesimally unlikely that it borders on the frankly untrue/completely impossible?

Perhaps when I hit the PowerBall, I'll fund more research on the issue...

My god, who cares? Every day I see a new thread about old, toxic beer and every day i see Revvy or someone else getting mad about. Just tell us how it tastes so we can get back on topic.

motlekj06 said:

My god, who cares? Every day I see a new thread about old, toxic beer and every day i see Revvy or someone else getting mad about. Just tell us how it tastes so we can get back on topic.

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Right! There's been plenty of time to get a few of these chilled and tasted. What was it like?

Here here! I'm on board for tasting notes and photos!

I think you should send me all those bombers for the experiment. I wouldn't want you to get sick 'nall.

Gameface said:

Right! There's been plenty of time to get a few of these chilled and tasted. What was it like?

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Hey, folks, I do have a job... I can't just start cracking these open at 9 AM to satisfy your curiosity!

I'll pop these in the fridge this evening, and I'll probably get around to tasting some by the weekend. I do plan to update the thread as I go since everyone seems quite interested...

bwarbiany said:

I can't just start cracking these open at 9 AM to satisfy your curiosity!

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You can and you will!!!!:cross:

cfonnes said:

Maybe the guy put some arsenic in them hoping that his ex would get thirsty and he could save on alimony.

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You beat me to it. Why else would a homebrewer leave all that homebrew behind?

It would be be hilarious if she dosed them with erection pills. You wouldn't know what was going on lmao

I am sitting here chuckling to myself about where this thread has gone. Even more so at the fact that I am interested in how they will taste. Please let us know.