FDA Approved Pumps

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willynilly

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I have seen several 1BBL brewing systems as of late that have been used, or are in use in a commercial setting that have pumps with poly heads. I am talking about March pumps and Little Giant pumps.

How does a commercial brewery get away with using pump heads that are not made from FDA approved materials? Seals?

Anyone? The difference between a poly head pump and a SS pump is about $1300 per pump. If I have to use a $1300 pump to make it FDA approved, so be it, but what about these other guys?
 
It doesn't need to be stainless to meet FDA. Many types of plastic are food safe.

Well, I just spoke with March and Little Giant techs, and they both said that their heads are not made from FDA approved materials.

So... I am still wondering how a certain brewery on the east coast is selling/using a brewhouse outfitted with these pumps.

I know there are food safe plastics, I eat food out of them every day...

Just saying, March and Little Giant heads arent... so how are people gettin away with it?
 
They use what works until there is a need to change, and they haven't realized a need to change yet.

Wouldnt the FDA inspect a brewery and want to see proof that these materials are food grade? If you are running a business, and fall under this govt. regulation, wouldnt this be an issue?

All I know at this point is that my buddy is going to have to cough up about $4k for pumps on the system I am building him. Glad it isnt my freaking money.

I mean it isnt so much about FDA approved as it is FDA compliant... approval is a stamp, compliant means that it is acceptable. The pump mfg. said that their poly heads were not "food grade material". Now I have to see if that means not APPROVED, or NOT COMPLIANT.
 
The FDA may or may not inspect breweries regularly, but I bet that when they do, they don't look at every seal and gasket, every hose and every pump head. I'm sure there are things that get over looked.
 
The common Little Giant and March pumps may not be NFS or FDA certified, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the materials used in the pump heads are not safe. IIRC, most are polysulphone or Ryton and those materials are safe for use in food handling. It's been awhile since I read up on this stuff, but the truth is out there. There's no way I'd pay those big bucks for an SS pump head if I could avoid it and still use safe materials. I'm not at all surprised that some of the big boys feel the same way.
 
Why don't you get the stainless head for the march. It is about $120 more than the poly head. Seems way cheaper than going to a full out sanitary pump.

You are talking about a March 809 on a 1BBL system, which would almost be like pumping backward. I wont outfit a 1BBL system with anything less than a 1050 GPH rated pump.

Yeah the 809 can get the head cheap, but the flow is slow.
 
The common Little Giant and March pumps may not be NFS or FDA certified, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the materials used in the pump heads are not safe. IIRC, most are polysulphone or Ryton and those materials are safe for use in food handling. It's been awhile since I read up on this stuff, but the truth is out there. There's no way I'd pay those big bucks for an SS pump head if I could avoid it and still use safe materials. I'm not at all surprised that some of the big boys feel the same way.


I agree CAT22... we are looking into the applicable USDA and FDA guidelines. The heads are Ryton and the seals are Viton.

Aside from this, the Cam-Groove gaskets have to be changed because they are delivered with Buna-N which is not a food grade, but I can get full on silicone from McMaster.

I will post here when we find out the deal on the pumps... just shocking that the mfg. was like... no, they are not food grade materials. I am sure that they are safe... but no one wants to have a conversation about what is safe with a govt. inspector in a brewery that you are just starting up.

Safe, and what the govt. will let you get licensed with are two different animals.

Really???
 
Well...

Though the mgf. states that the materials are not food grade, they also stated that they have been moving beer for a long time. My "friend" is accepting responsibility for any issues that may arise in the future about "food grade" materials in the pumps.

Bottom line, it is not worth it to them to get a $1600 pump... so they are getting $310 pumps with Ryton heads and Viton seals.

And this is how and why breweries use these pumps :D
 
Also, FDA does not regulate breweries. That is left up to the TTB. Honestly, the TTB is more worried about making sure enough taxes are paid and bottles don't have obscene labels.

States/localities might be more worried about this than the feds.
 
Also, FDA does not regulate breweries. That is left up to the TTB. Honestly, the TTB is more worried about making sure enough taxes are paid and bottles don't have obscene labels.

States/localities might be more worried about this than the feds.

See, I know the TTB and health dept. will be more involved, but the request of the customer was for FDA approved materials. If breweries get around this because the TTB doenst care about FDA approvals, then that is the answer.

As for my customer, they are willing to use non FDA approved materials in the pumps, that are safe, and save $1300 per pump. I dont blame them, this is their decision in the end. Honestly they probably would have balked on the purchase of the brewery if they had to purchase $1600 pumps, so this works out for myself and them!
 
See, I know the TTB and health dept. will be more involved, but the request of the customer was for FDA approved materials. If breweries get around this because the TTB doenst care about FDA approvals, then that is the answer.

As for my customer, they are willing to use non FDA approved materials in the pumps, that are safe, and save $1300 per pump. I dont blame them, this is their decision in the end. Honestly they probably would have balked on the purchase of the brewery if they had to purchase $1600 pumps, so this works out for myself and them!

If you have a written contract, make sure you ammend your contract and have your customer sign off on it. It's unlikely, but you don't want to chance liability issues.
 
if you havent seen these yet, http://www.dairyengineering.com/brewery1.asp
you should cll them, this is what I bought and am using in the brewery for everything. I actually started with one and then bought another one for different cleaning dutys.


What is the cost/pump. There are plenty of SS pumps out there, but few people want to spend 1600-2000 bucks to get them. My end users have already chosen their pumps, but others may be interested.
 
What is the cost/pump. There are plenty of SS pumps out there, but few people want to spend 1600-2000 bucks to get them. My end users have already chosen their pumps, but others may be interested.

mine were a little over $700 each with a few extra orings and springs for future use.
best deal I could find in sanitary pumps.
 
mine were a little over $700 each with a few extra orings and springs for future use.
best deal I could find in sanitary pumps.

That is a great deal, I will keep that in mind if I build anything in the future. How well do you think they will work with silicone hoses and valves restricting the flow? Are they mag drive?
 
no they are not mag drive, they are centrifugal pumps and they could blow unreinforced silicon tubing in a minute (cold). I use 1/2" "PURPLE SNAKE" brand, high temp brewery hose. I know its not as cool to not be able to see through it from a homebrewers perspective, but backflushing hot PBW right after transferring makes sure they are clean.

I use a variable frequency mini drive on my pumps. found them on ebay for less than $100 each and they work perfectly as well.
I can transfer +/-35 gallons of hot wort through the HEX and into the fermenter in about 10 minutes.

sorry, didnt really answer part of your question, they will cavitate badly if you restrict the flow much at all. thats what the VFD's are for, you set a flow speed and it pumps as fast or as slow as you want with the valves turned full on.
 
The common Little Giant and March pumps may not be NFS or FDA certified, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the materials used in the pump heads are not safe. IIRC, most are polysulphone or Ryton and those materials are safe for use in food handling. It's been awhile since I read up on this stuff, but the truth is out there. There's no way I'd pay those big bucks for an SS pump head if I could avoid it and still use safe materials. I'm not at all surprised that some of the big boys feel the same way.



Not only does it not mean they aren't safe, it doesn't even mean that they wouldn't pass FDA certification. Certification costs money. March and Little Giant aren't in the food business. Why would they pony up money to get certified (or pay extra for certified materials) for use in a market that they aren't interested in?
 
See, I know the TTB and health dept. will be more involved, but the request of the customer was for FDA approved materials. If breweries get around this because the TTB doenst care about FDA approvals, then that is the answer.
Also, FDA does not regulate breweries. That is left up to the TTB.

Some info about the FDA and beer, more on there web side.

For example, manufacturers of alcoholic beverages are responsible for adhering to the registration of food facilities requirements in 21 CFR part 1 and to the good manufacturing practices in 21 CFR part 110. However, as reflected in the 1987 Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) between FDA and TTB's predecessor agency (ATF) (Ref. 2), TTB is responsible for the promulgation and enforcement of regulations with respect to the labeling of distilled spirits, wines, and malt beverages pursuant to the FAA Act.

The law authorized the FDA to demand evidence of safety for new drugs, issue standards for food, and conduct factory inspections.

Read FDA Food Code 2009, chapter 4, Equipment, Utensils and Lines.

The definition of "food" under the FFDCA includes "articles used for food or drink" and thus includes alcoholic beverages. See 21 U.S.C. 321(f).

In TTB Ruling 2008-3, dated July 7, 2008, TTB clarified that certain beers, which are not made from both malted barley and hops but are instead made from substitutes for malted barley (such as sorghum, rice or wheat) or are made without hops, do not meet the definition of a malt beverage under the FAA Act.3 Accordingly, TTB stated in its Ruling that such products (other than sake, which is classified as a wine under the FAA Act), are not subject to the labeling, advertising, and other provisions of the TTB regulations promulgated under the FAA Act.
In cases where an alcoholic beverage is not covered by the labeling provisions of the FAA Act, the product is subject to ingredient and other labeling requirements under the FFDCA and the implementing regulations that are administered by FDA.
Labels of beers that are subject to FDA's labeling requirements must conform to the requirements in 21 CFR part 101.

Its good to know somebody looking out for us brewers:D

Cheers,
ClaudiusB
 
Not only does it not mean they aren't safe, it doesn't even mean that they wouldn't pass FDA certification.

Wow... a triple (or more) negative. I'm still trying to wrap my head around this one, and those Belgian beers earlier (nor the Makers Mark I'm sipping now) certainly don't help me figure out what you're saying :drunk::drunk::drunk:...

I'll try to parse this in the AM, when I'm more sober...
 
Wow... a triple (or more) negative. I'm still trying to wrap my head around this one, and those Belgian beers earlier (nor the Makers Mark I'm sipping now) certainly don't help me figure out what you're saying :drunk::drunk::drunk:...

I'll try to parse this in the AM, when I'm more sober...
Not FDA approved != not safe
 

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