Beergas is Expensive in Tampa...any Suggestions?

I just got off the phone with Airgas and they quoted me $198 for a cylinder of Beergas (this includes purchasing the cylinder). Does this seem right? Are there any Tampa bay brewers that know of a cheaper place? I want to add a stout faucet but the endevour seems pretty pricey thus far. Thanks.

What size? The tank itself is pretty expensive, especially if you buy a new one

He hit me with the cubic foot after which I was immediately confused. I do recall knee high though. Sounded like a 20 lb (in CO2 speak) to me.

J8D said:

He hit me with the cubic foot after which I was immediately confused. I do recall knee high though. Sounded like a 20 lb (in CO2 speak) to me.

Click to expand...

20 lb tank new is over $150

The tank is a huge part of that, you should call them back and ask about refills. Here the 20lb size refill is $44.00 which is still more than I wanted to pay considering I could get both a CO2 tank and a nitrogen tank filled for $26 total, and it lasts 3-4x as long.

I found a used gas blender on ebay traded my beergas tank for a nitrogen tank and now I make my own blended gas. Start-up costs were about 2x what you were quoted but most of what I have will retain most of it's purchase value should I ever choose to resell it.

Beergas is expensive everywhere.

Why do you want to use beergas? It's only needed to run long lines under pressures like 35 PSI and pushing stout through a stout faucet. If you are running it in a home kegerator you are wasting your money.

Beergas is a mix of CO2 and nitrogen and it's mixed specifically for higher pressures - the mix keeps the beer from over-carbonating.

thargrav said:

Beergas is expensive everywhere.

Why do you want to use beergas? It's only needed to run long lines under pressures like 35 PSI and pushing stout through a stout faucet. If you are running it in a home kegerator you are wasting your money.

Beergas is a mix of CO2 and nitrogen and it's mixed specifically for higher pressures - the mix keeps the beer from over-carbonating.

Click to expand...

Yes I know. I am planning to hook up a stout faucet.

Is it possible to just have both co2 and nitrogen tanks hooked up, via separate regulators per tank and have them t'd together in the tubing running to the keg?

You would need a gas blender to accurately control the mix ratios.

I get my gas from my local welding supply company. I went in to get a specific beer gas tank and regulator when i received my new stout faucet. The guy filling the tank was also a homebrewer. He set me up a different way. The amount of beergas you'll go through to push stouts (unless that's all you brew) is pretty small. At that point, he sold me a small 5# CO2 bottle. He said for the size of the bottle, its rated for the same pressure needed for the beergas mixture. This way, I also get to use my CO2 regulator on it, and do not need to go get a separate, "one trick pony" regulator. Works out well, since I already had a second regulator. This is my backup, and I used it for other things as well, such as tailgates, etc.

How much is a mixing regulator? I have ball valves inline in my tubing going to keg, but I assume its not as easy as just adjusting ball valves to mix gases?

zazbnf said:

You would need a gas blender to accurately control the mix ratios.

Click to expand...

ive been trying to figure out if that is true or not. logically, according to gas laws, 100psi of 75/25 beergas mix should be the same as 75psi of nitrogen and 25psi of CO2 (or close enough for our purposes). if you just have two seperate regulators for nitrogen and CO2 and wye-together the lines into a keg, i cant see how that would act any differently than a premixed beergas.

the only place that i could see a gas mixer being required would be if you were mixing gasses in-process; meaning as they were flowing, and you needed extremely accurate flow rates to match a specific ratio. we dont (or shouldnt) care about that as they will reach equilibrium pressure fairly quickly. i dont see how a keg just sitting there (not being constantly drawn from) would notice a difference between two gasses coming from one bottle, vs two bottles supplying two different gasses. partial gas pressures should be identical.

that make sense to anyone else?

audger said:

ive been trying to figure out if that is true or not. logically, according to gas laws, 100psi of 75/25 beergas mix should be the same as 75psi of nitrogen and 25psi of CO2 (or close enough for our purposes). if you just have two seperate regulators for nitrogen and CO2 and wye-together the lines into a keg, i cant see how that would act any differently than a premixed beergas.

the only place that i could see a gas mixer being required would be if you were mixing gasses in-process; meaning as they were flowing, and you needed extremely accurate flow rates to match a specific ratio. we dont (or shouldnt) care about that as they will reach equilibrium pressure fairly quickly. i dont see how a keg just sitting there (not being constantly drawn from) would notice a difference between two gasses coming from one bottle, vs two bottles supplying two different gasses. partial gas pressures should be identical.

that make sense to anyone else?

Click to expand...

I think your problem in the above example would be the nitrogen at 75 psi nitrogen and 25PSI CO2 do not equal 100PSI, you are still only at 75PSI. Also assuming you calculate the correct ratio to get a 75%/25% mix not sure how well/quickly they are going to mix in real time when pouring.

audger said:

ive been trying to figure out if that is true or not. logically, according to gas laws, 100psi of 75/25 beergas mix should be the same as 75psi of nitrogen and 25psi of CO2 (or close enough for our purposes). if you just have two seperate regulators for nitrogen and CO2 and wye-together the lines into a keg, i cant see how that would act any differently than a premixed beergas.

the only place that i could see a gas mixer being required would be if you were mixing gasses in-process; meaning as they were flowing, and you needed extremely accurate flow rates to match a specific ratio. we dont (or shouldnt) care about that as they will reach equilibrium pressure fairly quickly. i dont see how a keg just sitting there (not being constantly drawn from) would notice a difference between two gasses coming from one bottle, vs two bottles supplying two different gasses. partial gas pressures should be identical.

that make sense to anyone else?

Click to expand...

You will get 75 psi of nitrogen and NO CO2 at all.

dowhatitdo said:

How much is a mixing regulator?

Click to expand...

New gas blenders start around $600, however if you are patient and watch ebay you can sometimes find them for $250-$300. Search "Gas Blender"

dowhatitdo said:

Is it possible to just have both co2 and nitrogen tanks hooked up, via separate regulators per tank and have them t'd together in the tubing running to the keg?

Click to expand...

You used to be able to buy a proportioning valve from N.A.D.S. that would do this but I have not seen one in a long time.

Without some sort of proportioning valve the answer is "no" because the regulator set to the lowest pressure would always open first and you would never deliver any gas from the other tank.

thargrav said:

You used to be able to buy a proportioning valve from N.A.D.S. that would do this but I have not seen one in a long time.

Without some sort of proportioning valve the answer is "no" because the regulator set to the lowest pressure would always open first and you would never deliver any gas from the other tank.

Click to expand...

I believe you are referring to something like this

Nitrogen/Co2 Blender

That one is a Perlick 664B model, however when I was searching for a gas blender, I never found anyone that had one in stock. Not sure they are even still made.

Biggest advantage to the newer McDantim or Micromatic gas blenders is if one gas runs out it shuts off gas flow to prevent overcarb or flat beer. and they are accurate to the settings +/- 2%. however the mix is set at factory and cannot be changed by the end user.

For those that like to tinker, the 664B did have the advantage that you could control the mix percentage. However if one gas ran out, it would compensate with full output pressure of the other gas.

yep, that's one.

Would it work if I put check valves where the nitrogen and co2 blend/tee together, so one tank wouldn't overpower the other due to pressure?

dowhatitdo said:

Would it work if I put check valves where the nitrogen and co2 blend/tee together, so one tank wouldn't overpower the other due to pressure?

Click to expand...

I think you would find the higher pressure from the nitrogen tank would force the lower pressure CO2 check valve closed to prevent backflow at the same time preventing any forward flow from the CO2.

dowhatitdo said:

Would it work if I put check valves where the nitrogen and co2 blend/tee together, so one tank wouldn't overpower the other due to pressure?

Click to expand...

Check valves won't solve this one.

Regulators open up when their release pressure is reached and the one set to the highest pressure will open up first, leaving the other one closed. Even if both are set to the exact same pressure, one will always be slightly lower than the other.

So, let's say your nitrogen regulator is set to 12 PSI and your CO2 regulator is set to 10 PSI? As soon as your pressure drops below 12 PSI the nitrogen regulator will open. The pressure will NEVER drop below 12 PSI and the CO2 regulator will never open.

There is a way to do it but it requires 3 regulators, 2 needle valves and 2 flow meters to measure & set the proper gas flow.

The first two regulators regulate the tank pressures to a constant 100 PSI & they do not have to be the same.

Then the needle valves are used to create a constant flow rate from the 100 PSI.

Finally the third regulator will regulate the gas down to the pressure you need.

To adjust you would set the two needle valves while delivering gas through the third regulator and setting the flow rates to 3.5 CFM and 6.5 CFM would give you a 35/65 mix.

Also, the combined flow rate of both needle valves has to be at or less than the flow rate of the third regulator. If this is not done then the mixture will be off.

That makes since. So is guinness or young's actually carbonated with nitrogen? What is the widget in the can for?

My twin brother works at a place called Airgas Retail Solution they are a twin company for Airgas but have WAY lower pricing. 20lb refill is $16-20$ i believe and 50lbs is $28-$30(depending on region). His email address is [email protected] mention that you heard it from marvin and he wil hook you guys up His number is 727-576-0033 ext-11377 and they have branches accross the country. Cheers!

Thanks Melvinator!!!!!

dowhatitdo said:

That makes since. So is guinness or young's actually carbonated with nitrogen? What is the widget in the can for?

Click to expand...

Guinness and Young's are both carbonated with CO2. The widget is filled with nitrogen and when you open the can the nitrogen spews out, knocking some of the CO2 out of suspension which creates the creamy head. Very little nitrogen disolves in the beer - not enough to contribute.

Ok. I didn't know that. Thanks for the info

melvinator said:

My twin brother works at a place called Airgas Retail Solution they are a twin company for Airgas but have WAY lower pricing. 20lb refill is $16-20$ i believe and 50lbs is $28-$30(depending on region). His email address is [email protected] mention that you heard it from marvin and he wil hook you guys up His number is 727-576-0033 ext-11377 and they have branches accross the country. Cheers!

Click to expand...

Wait a tic...you're Marvin, but your screenname is melvinator? Interesting...

thargrav said:

...The first two regulators regulate the tank pressures to a constant 100 PSI & they do not have to be the same.
...

Click to expand...

Sorry, but what are you trying to say here? Are you saying one could be set at 98 psi and the other 101 psi? I would think both would need to be set exactly at the same pressure, and that is going to be a nightmare to get consistant results.
If it was that easy, gas blenders would not be >$600.

mattd2 said:

Sorry, but what are you trying to say here? Are you saying one could be set at 98 psi and the other 101 psi? I would think both would need to be set exactly at the same pressure, and that is going to be a nightmare to get consistant results.
If it was that easy, gas blenders would not be >$600.

Click to expand...

Sure, one can be 98 PSI and the other 101 PSI. The key is they are constant pressure. And once you have constant pressure you can use the needle valves to turn the costant pressure into a constant flow rate. The other key is to pull enough CO2 out of the system to drop the third regulator inlet pressure much lower, lets say 40 PSI. Now when the third regulator poens the flow through the needle valves will depend on where they are set.

How many kegs are you guys getting out of a 20# beer gas tank? I know they aren't rated in pounds but the one I have is similar to my 20# Co2 tank.

Mike

thargrav said:

Sure, one can be 98 PSI and the other 101 PSI. The key is they are constant pressure. And once you have constant pressure you can use the needle valves to turn the costant pressure into a constant flow rate. The other key is to pull enough CO2 out of the system to drop the third regulator inlet pressure much lower, lets say 40 PSI. Now when the third regulator poens the flow through the needle valves will depend on where they are set.

Click to expand...

What do you mean by constant pressure? Are you saying that the neddle valves will have a large pressure drop across them that the pressure will equalise at some value much less that the ~100 psi that the tank regulators are set approximately at, and therefore both regs will allow gas into the system independent of the others set pressure?

blackcows said:

How many kegs are you guys getting out of a 20# beer gas tank? I know they aren't rated in pounds but the one I have is similar to my 20# Co2 tank.

Mike

Click to expand...

When I used beer gas I could almost get 3 (5 Gal kegs) from that sized tank. I think a lot depends on what pressure your full beer gas tank is. Here they used nitrogen tanks with a cga-320 valve. A full tank of beer gas would be around 1700PSI.

I'm saying that once you have a constant pressure in front of the needle valves the valves can be adjusted for a constant flow rate as long as the pressure beyond the needle valves is significantly less than the pressure before the needle valves. Also, the pressures can be different because the flow across each needle valve is determined by the individual needle valve opening and the individual pressure across the valve.

To work the needle valves must be adjusted so that the pressure beyond them is about half the input pressures. In other words, open them too much and they stop controlling flow because there is no longer a pressure drop across them.

Looks like your in the bay area, this listing is about a week old, but these cylinders will work for you application. If I live in Tampa I would pick one up.

melvinator said:

My twin brother works at a place called Airgas Retail Solution they are a twin company for Airgas but have WAY lower pricing. 20lb refill is $16-20$ i believe and 50lbs is $28-$30(depending on region). His email address is [email protected] mention that you heard it from marvin and he wil hook you guys up His number is 727-576-0033 ext-11377 and they have branches accross the country. Cheers!

Click to expand...

Marvin,

I shot Melvin an email but got no response. Is he still working at Airgas? Thanks!!!