Pilotless Ignition

Hey guys I am trying to research some options of pilotless ignition systems,so I thought I would start here. Right now I have honeywell valves running on low pressure lp. Are the electronic ignitors that come on when the honeywell is told to open? Just wanting to know what is out there. Thanks

Hi

Two common answers:

One are the spark ignitors the other are the hot ignitors. Both check for a flame and shut down the valve if it's not present. Different folks like each one.

Spark ignitor fires off a spark to light a pilot. Pilot then lights the burner. Lots and lots of threads showing them in action. There are a set of them in the garage here.

Not as familiar with the hot element ignitors.

Bob

There are 2 methods out there, spark ignition and hot surface, both will work direct ignition but variable fire levels on burners make that an iffy situation. The pilot with all of the baggage is the most reliable method because the pilot burns with constant fire level regardless what the main burner is doing.
You can get into the situation where the burner is turned low enough, or high enough that the ignition does not happen, then the ignition module locks out until power is shut off. With a pilot, it lights off each time and gives enough flame to reliably light the burner off at all reasonable firing levels.

Excuse the thread-borrowing, but...kladue, can you recommend a specific model valve setup for high pressure propane?

Cheers!

Hi

I'm running mine on high pressure propane with the "usual" Honeywell ignitors and eBay 24 VAC valves.

(No I'm not Kladue...)

Bob

Onehoppyguy, I dont understand what those valves you linked to actually do. Can you explain the operation?

Nightbrew said:

Onehoppyguy, I dont understand what those valves you linked to actually do. Can you explain the operation?

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They are an industrial gas valve. They work like solenoid valves. Not trying to start an argument, but...
For home brewing applications low pressure propane is sufficient. I liken banjo burners running 30 psi to putting a supercharger on your engine. Cool, but hardly what's needed to get the job done.

A couple questions about need for high pressure, are you using BG-10's, if so you need high pressure, if BG-14's that is not the way to go. Most folks do not understand that more than 80K btu's under a 16" pot or keg is just not going to work, the multijet burners look impressive but have to be mounted 10-12" below the pot to get enough secondary air to burn right, and most of the heat just blows away. The BG-14 burners have proven to be the optimum size for HLT and BK applications, and with low pressure hit 80K at wide open.
To implement spark ignition with pilot you need 2 solenoids and 1 spark ignition module for each burner. The correct 1/4" solenoids rated for gas use are ASCO RED-HAT-8262H078, and run $75 each. The S8610 spark module runs around $88 each, for a total of $238 a burner. The Y8610U kits run around $210 and have a low pressure valve included, but you will need a Q345 pilot burner as they only have conversions for the Q314 pilot burners but no Q314 pilot burner. You do not need solenoid valves larger than 1/4" with high pressure, the gas density is such that they will flow more than the #65 drill size orifice can pass at the burner, larger is wasting your time and money.
For an example of this with diagrams, check the "Soos Creek Brewery thread https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/1-bbl-brewery-build-brutus-inspired-307647/ as there is an implementation of high pressure burner control for propane.
If you want the lowest cost and most popular setup, the Honeywell VR8200 low pressure standing pilot valve, Q314 pilot burner, and thermocouple will run about $80 per burner. Light pilot at start of brew session and away you go.

I have to disagree with one item kladue... using natural gas and needle valves, jet burners respond very well in our tests.

Thanks for the pointers, kladue, they're appreciated.

I've been vacillating between going the conventional low pressure propane route verses high pressure. I keep seeing posts by folks having problems with running BG14's on low pressure, which nudges me towards high pressure (which is how I run mine now - manually). Then I see the random post claiming they're doing fine on low pressure, which moves me towards going the cheaper, low pressure route.

The sure bet is to stay with high pressure, but the cost is significantly higher (like 3x), which is what's kept me on the fence.

It's a dilemma that doesn't seem to want to resolve...

Cheers!

We build low pressure units for customers. If they didn't work, we wouldn't sell them.

The only place BG-14's are really useful are for the boil, which you don't need a solenoid and can run HP if you want. For the mash / HLT all you need are 6" ring burners or something similar that run LP (low pressure not liquid propane). That makes things a lot simpler. BG-14's waste a ton of gas.

jcaudill said:

The only place BG-14's are really useful are for the boil, which you don't need a solenoid and can run HP if you want. For the mash / HLT all you need are 6" ring burners or something similar that run LP (low pressure not liquid propane). That makes things a lot simpler. BG-14's waste a ton of gas.

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I have to disagree with this one. Running a banjo (BJ14) spreads the flame over a larger area and at low pressure they work well. The same BTUs are required regardless of burner size... right? With needle valves, banjo burners can be dropped real low. One other thing: if you ever go larger, you already have your burners.

I do agree with the ever go larger part. But I think there is no substitute for a cladded bottom - it will take care of the heat distribution.

I think the BTU's are substantially different between the BG-14 and BG12.

We have another low pressure banjo stand build coming up. I'll take photos of the burners in action.

Hi

How lucky do you feel? There are people on eBay who will sell you sub $40 24 VAC valves that will handle 30 psi propane or gas. The current they require is well within the ratings of the Honeywell ignition controllers.

Bob

Thanks for the help everyone. I run blichmann burners which are designed to be run on high pressure. I have changed them over to low pressure, and yes I havent played w/it enough but Im not thrilled with the low pressure. I will still do some more playing but I would like to have info on the high pressure if I choose to go that route. I would much rather have it all figured out ahead of time w/fewer questions later. I guess now we be a good time to ask what is the best way to determine the proper distance from burner to the bottom of the pot. I think if I fined tuned that I would be much closer to happiness w/the low pressure setup. Thanks again guys

Nightbrew said:

I guess now we be a good time to ask what is the best way to determine the proper distance from burner to the bottom of the pot. I think if I fined tuned that I would be much closer to happiness w/the low pressure setup. Thanks again guys

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This isn't an easy question to answer. Having worked on my own rig and helped others with theirs, each system has variables that affect the burner distance. These variables include the size & shape of your kettles, the height and width of the tubing for the top of the rig, What is the footprint of the tubing that the kettle is sitting on, what type (if any) of windscreen, how much venting is cut into the windscreen, etc. It seems that with the BG14 burners on low pressure that you have a balancing act between distance and air flow. Those burners need a lot of air, so you can't have enclosed box tubing with the kettle totally covering the top and windscreens stopping air flow. You need to configure it in such a way as to allow lots of air to flow into and out of the burner combustion area.

I use the 6" 10 tip jet (wok) burners on my rig and other than being louder than the BG14's they work perfectly. I thought about swapping them out for BG14's earlier this year so that it would be much quieter, but after messing with the BG14's on some other rigs, I decided mine worked just fine.

You want adjustable? We got adjustable.

Nightbrew said:

Thanks for the help everyone. I run blichmann burners which are designed to be run on high pressure. I have changed them over to low pressure, and yes I havent played w/it enough but Im not thrilled with the low pressure. I will still do some more playing but I would like to have info on the high pressure if I choose to go that route. I would much rather have it all figured out ahead of time w/fewer questions later. I guess now we be a good time to ask what is the best way to determine the proper distance from burner to the bottom of the pot. I think if I fined tuned that I would be much closer to happiness w/the low pressure setup. Thanks again guys

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Hi

The Blichmann burners seem to work fine with the "stock" spacing on my 10 and 20 gallon pots and the stock high pressure regulator. If anything they put out a bit more than I'd like them to.

Bob

Due to convienence of the build, I ended up with them a little closer than the stock setup. But I assumed with the low pressure I wouldnt need as much space w/a lower flame height. I am beginning to think this is too little of space to work correctly.