Can I rack to secondary before hitting FG?

I thought my beer was done in Primary (without Hydrometer reading, bubbles only), so I positioned my carboy to rack to a secondary. In the process, I think I moved some yeast around. Now my airlock is bubbling again.
Any harm in racking to secondary before knowing if it's some?

Know if it's done, that is.

You can, but I wouldn't recommend it. Has all the krausen dropped?

What likely happened is some co2 just came out of solution when you moved it.

Krausen dropped several days ago. It was a rapid fermentation.
I just moved it back to fermentation spot and it stopped bubbling.
I saw yeast junks diving, not much though.
I'll take your advice and wait until I can get a few readings.

Thanks

As Revvy is so fond of pointing out, whether there are bubbles coming out of your airlock or not isn't really very useful information at this point. If it's been fermenting a while and the krausen fell, in all likelihood it is done, but you just don't have all the information you need.

Take a hydrometer reading. Then wait two days and take another. If it is the same, off you go. If it is lower, then wait a few more days. When you're stable for 2-3 days, you know fermentation is compete; that is the only actual fact that tells you it is done. Use that approach with every single beer you ever brew, and you won't be guessing any more.

Thanks

Check the gravity and if you get the same reading over three days then consider racking to secondary. Unless you are adding fruit or such then there is no need for the secondary. No need to rush. Good beer takes time. When you think it is done... Wait.

Yup, get a hydrometer. The only way to tell it's done or not.

If you can, just skip the whole secondary thing.

How long was it in primary? Just wait three weeks in primary then rack. Three weeks should be plenty of time without having to take multiple readings.

Patience is a virtue when it comes to fermentation. I couldn't wait to get my first brew bottled; I've learned my lesson since then.

Read resumeman's post and then read it again.

Racking the beer isn't always a bad thing. It depends on what your brewing. If you are going to rack it off, be clean.

Quote.
"Take a hydrometer reading. Then wait two days and take another. If it is the same, off you go. If it is lower, then wait a few more days. When you're stable for 2-3 days, you know fermentation is compete that is the only actual fact that tells you it is done. Use that approach with every single beer you ever brew, and you won't be guessing any more."

The tool that takes the guess work out of knowing when a beer is done, is a glucose test kit. A hydrometer only measures density. It hasn't the capability to determine if there are fermentable or non fermentable sugars in the solution being measured. A hydrometer reading can be stable for days, due to the yeast dropping out. A stable hydrometer reading doesn't make it a fact that the beer is done. Fermentation may be incomplete, the yeast may have became dormant. Guessing goes away when you know the percentage of fermentable sugar in the beer. Knowing the percentage of fermentable sugar in the beer can help with knowing if something is going haywire with the yeast. Knowing if there is fermentable sugar in the beer, helps at bottling time.... Using the hydrometer, the reading can be stable for days. So, then you decide it's time to prime and bottle. However, there might be fermentable sugar left in solution. The bottling process rouses up the yeast and it starts working on the left over fermentable sugar and priming solution. Hence, the possibility of bottle bombs, gushers and over carbing. Because the krausen falls, doesn't mean that the beer is done. There is a thing called post krausen.

Interesting. I have never heard of specifically testing for sugar in the context of brewing. That detects maltose too? Same response? Do you actually use that?

I could have noted upthread that, along with stable gravity, another thing to be mindful of is whether that gravity is what you expect it to be. Almost by definition, a stuck fermentation is stable, but obviously it isn't "done."

VladOfTrub said:

Racking the beer isn't always a bad thing. It depends on what your brewing. If you are going to rack it off, be clean.

Quote.
"Take a hydrometer reading. Then wait two days and take another. If it is the same, off you go. If it is lower, then wait a few more days. When you're stable for 2-3 days, you know fermentation is compete that is the only actual fact that tells you it is done. Use that approach with every single beer you ever brew, and you won't be guessing any more."

The tool that takes the guess work out of knowing when a beer is done, is a glucose test kit. A hydrometer only measures density. It hasn't the capability to determine if there are fermentable or non fermentable sugars in the solution being measured. A hydrometer reading can be stable for days, due to the yeast dropping out. A stable hydrometer reading doesn't make it a fact that the beer is done. Fermentation may be incomplete, the yeast may have became dormant. Guessing goes away when you know the percentage of fermentable sugar in the beer. Knowing the percentage of fermentable sugar in the beer can help with knowing if something is going haywire with the yeast. Knowing if there is fermentable sugar in the beer, helps at bottling time.... Using the hydrometer, the reading can be stable for days. So, then you decide it's time to prime and bottle. However, there might be fermentable sugar left in solution. The bottling process rouses up the yeast and it starts working on the left over fermentable sugar and priming solution. Hence, the possibility of bottle bombs, gushers and over carbing. Because the krausen falls, doesn't mean that the beer is done. There is a thing called post krausen.

Click to expand...

Knowing how much fermentable sugar is in the beer is useless information... The yeast will not eat all of the sugar, whether its fermentable or not they will leave some behind. There is not a strain that I am aware of that can attenuate 100%.

Taking a hydro reading will be sufficient information for anyone to determine where a beer is in the fermentation process. That along with being patient is all anyone needs to do. There is no reason to overcomplicate the process and spend extra money just to determine whether you can move to secondary or not...

I don't believe that's correct. My understanding is that the yeast will in fact consume all the fermentable sugar in a complete, healthy fermentation. Granted nothing is truly 100% but essentially so. I think the sugars left behind are the ones that are unable to be consumed by the yeast (maltotriose and higher in most cases).

Right?

ResumeMan said:

I don't believe that's correct. My understanding is that the yeast will in fact consume all the fermentable sugar in a complete, healthy fermentation. Granted nothing is truly 100% but essentially so. I think the sugars left behind are the ones that are unable to be consumed by the yeast (maltotriose and higher in most cases).

Right?

Click to expand...

I think there is always fermentable sugars left behind because when the ABV rises the yeast dies off, some but not all.

ResumeMan said:

I don't believe that's correct. My understanding is that the yeast will in fact consume all the fermentable sugar in a complete, healthy fermentation. Granted nothing is truly 100% but essentially so. I think the sugars left behind are the ones that are unable to be consumed by the yeast (maltotriose and higher in most cases).

Right?

Click to expand...

Not exactly. The yeast go after sugars in a specific order, the shorter carbohydrate chain and more easily broken down sugars such as sucrose are attacked first, continuing on to more complex and longer chain sugars, so forth and so on until most of the available sugars are eaten. Eventually, the sugar supply gets low, fermentable sugars are more difficult to find, yeast get exhausted (or killed by alcohol) and go dormant, leaving fermentable materials behind in the finished product.

Specific yeast strains are fairly predictable, and this is the reason why wyeast and white labs are able to tell you the expected apparent attenuation rates for each strain they offer. If yeast ate all of the fermentables (or even most) and only left unfermentables behind then the AA rates would vary pretty wildly from brew to brew.

Imagine, if you will, that you are trapped on an island with the all of the Victoria secrets lingerie models. You would naturally go after the easiest ones first, working your way up to the more difficult ones, before finally getting bored/exhausted and leaving some of them untouched. Yeast work exactly the same

Brilliant analogy

Great discussion and thank you everyone for the good information.

For the record, I racked to secondary to get the beer off the trub so that it didn't pick up any off flavors. After racking, I smelt the leftover yeast etc. and it had a mild soapy smell to it. So I'm glad I went to secondary.
This is a Bavarian Hefeweizen (my first all-grain). The yeast went crazy and I had to switch to a blow-off tube day 1. I think I had a healthy batch of yeast that I spun up to even greater numbers. In the starter, the yeast looked rubbery after decanting, not sure if that's normal.

A beer thief is now on my shopping list.

"Knowing how much fermentable sugar is in the beer is useless information..."

So, you're the Guru on what is useless information in the brewing world? It is your opinion. But, there may be brewers that desire to be more accurate within their process.

"Taking a hydro reading will be sufficient information for anyone to determine where a beer is in the fermentation process. That along with being patient is all anyone needs to do. There is no reason to overcomplicate the process and spend extra money just to determine whether you can move to secondary or not...

Your first sentence depends on what a person considers "sufficient information." Again, it is your opinion. In your process, it may be good enough to use a horseshoes and hand grenades close, tester. Don't assume that it fits all brewers. If you never used a sugar kit, how would you know if it makes a process more complicated or more expensive? This appears to be another statement that you made, based on, absolutely, no experience with the tool. It only takes one drop of beer for the sample. And a 10 second wait for the read out to pop up. It doesn't need an hydrometer jar of beer. The kit is more accurate and it doesn't matter if there is C02 in solution. CO2 in solution gives a false reading on the hydrometer. A test kit is 20 bucks and lasts a long, long, time. There are 2 types of attenuation. Apparent and true. An hydrometer only measures density and apparent attenuation. To use an hydrometer to get true attenuation, a method is used and a formula is needed. An hydrometer is most useful in the first part of the process. Getting the OG. After that it becomes less accurate, due to CO2 in solution and less useful when determining bottling, diacetyl rest or racking time. I can only tell you about a tool that removes quess work from a process, one that is easier to use and one that is far more accurate. I can't tell you how to understand it.

I've never claimed to be the guru, but I am also not the one trying to over complicate sq process that has been used for literally hundreds of years...

If this glucose test was as necessary as you seem to think that it is, then how come it is not mentioned in a single book, or used universally throughout the industry? You are the only person I have ever heard of using this process. I'm not saying that makes it wrong, but one would think that this kind of important information would be made available to everyone else...

As a matter of fact, after a bit of searching, a "glucose test kit" on any homebrew sites points towar a wine testing kit, and has absolutely nothing to do with fermentation completion... it only measures glucose and fructose, only two carbohydrate chains, NOT all sugars... If this method works for you, then great, but I'm not finding any accuracy in your statements as of yet.

W0rthog said:

Great discussion and thank you everyone for the good information.

For the record, I racked to secondary to get the beer off the trub so that it didn't pick up any off flavors.

Click to expand...

I'd be careful with the words *off flavors*. Assuming a healthy fermentation and no contamination, then the flavors from extended time on the yeast are not that strong. If fact, many people actually like them and prefer the flavors derived from sitting longer on the yeast. Other though prefer the flavors of racked beers. This is something you will have to decide.

A good part of this flavor addition from an extended primary is from yeast autolysis. It is unfortunate that there is a lot of misinformation out there saying that autolysis produces off flavors. This is far from the truth. If you are having strong off flavors from a beer left on the yeast, then you more than likely have an infection problem (or less likely an oxidation issue).

As to the question of sugars and yeast, all yeast are not created equal. Most beer yeast cannot eat all of the sugars in a wort - they don't have the genes to metabolize every sugar. Lager yeast are able to metabolize sugars that ale yeast cannot. Many wine yeast though do have these genes and will quite happily eat all the sugars in your wort

pjj2ba said:

I'd be careful with the words *off flavors*.

Click to expand...

Well, I'd say I'm not shooting for a soap flavor in my beer, so it's an 'off flavor' I chose to avoid. This is the first time I actually smelt soap from the yeast cake. I suppose an IPA could hide it better. Thanks for the caution anyway.