Fermentation Time in a Single Fermenter

[Lazer_Lad]

I have been reading about the pros and cons of secondary fermentation, and it seems that a common consensus at the moment is that moving your beer to a secondary fermenter is not necessary because it will just give your beer more opportunities to become contaminated or oxidized. But for people that do not move to a secondary fermenter, they suggest removing the trub, typically by starting with a conical fermenter. If I do not have a conical fermenter, can I just leave my beer in the carboy with the trub without it impacting flavor? And if it would impact flavor, how long would it be before that becomes a problem?

 

[huckdavidson]

they suggest removing the trub, typically by starting with a conical fermenter.

A conical fermenter isn't needed. You can do low oxygen transfer of beer to another fermenter or keg by purging the receiving vessel with CO2 and then filling. The receiving vessel needs to be able to hold pressure (keg or pressure rated fermenter) and the dispensing vessel needs to be able to drain from above the trub and yeast cake layers.

If I do not have a conical fermenter, can I just leave my beer in the carboy with the trub without it impacting flavor?

Yes.

And if it would impact flavor, how long would it be before that becomes a problem?

Generally many months (in some cases years) in a reasonable environment (not too cold/hot, pressurized, etc...) would need to pass but best to transfer, bottle or keg within a reasonable period of time, say 4 - 6 weeks.

Oxidation is the main concern unless your fermenter is sealed and can retain pressure for long periods of time.

This is a concern for sour beer brewing, due to the length of the souring process but...

Yeast autolysis is the rupturing of dead yeast cells and produces meaty or rubbery off flavors

. When it comes to sour beers, Lambic producers often let their beers age in barrels on the trub for up to four years without effects of off flavors from yeast autolysis. The hypothesis is that the Brettanomyces will metabolize the off-flavor compounds produced by the bursting Saccharomyces cells, and use them as nutrients [3].

https://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/So...e rupturing,off flavors from yeast autolysis.

 

[mac_1103]

You can do low oxygen transfer of beer to another fermenter or keg by purging the receiving vessel with CO2 and then filling. The receiving vessel needs to be able to hold pressure (keg or pressure rated fermenter).

Actually, any vessel that will seal airtight can be purged with fermentation gas without the need to hold pressure. I think I remember someone here once posted a picture of a carboy that he was pushing starsan out of with fermentation gas. I haven't done that, but I do purge empty sanitized carboys by streaming fermentation gas through them, and I do gravity closed transfers from fermenters to purged carboys (for bulk aging) all the time. But for most of my beers I just go straight from primary fermenter to package after anywhere from 3 to 6 weeks.

 

[huckdavidson]

Actually, any vessel that will seal airtight can be purged with fermentation gas without the need to hold pressure.

True enough though may present some danger if ever the gas flow blocked.

 

[fluketamer]

years ago it use to be the 1 2 3 rule. 1 week primary 2 weeks secondary three weeks in the bottle.

that evolved into the 2 - 4 rule which was 2 weeks primary 4 in the bottle.

which seems to work very good for most beers.

i now do 2 weeks primary 3-4 days force carb in the keg. then try to be patient and let it sit in keg for a few weeks instead of drinking it before its time. i find its usually takes a good two solid weeks in the keg to get good. . it usually just gets better after that if the keg isnt kicked by then lol

the whole removing the trub thing was due to the scare of yeast autolysis which i am almost sure by now has been shown to be a classic homebrew myth. iirc dead yeast cells arent bad and could be beneficial.
so long story short no need for secondary and no need to remove trub just leave it in primary for 2 weeks . three is prolly even better. ( minmum three if its a big beer)

good luck

 

[Lazer_Lad]

years ago it use to be the 1 2 3 rule. 1 week primary 2 weeks secondary three weeks in the bottle.

that evolved into the 2 - 4 rule which was 2 weeks primary 4 in the bottle.

which seems to work very good for most beers.

i now do 2 weeks primary 3-4 days force carb in the keg. then try to be patient and let it sit in keg for a few weeks instead of drinking it before its time. i find its usually takes a good two solid weeks in the keg to get good. . it usually just gets better after that if the keg isnt kicked by then lol

the whole removing the trub thing was due to the scare of yeast autolysis which i am almost sure by now has been shown to be a classic homebrew myth. iirc dead yeast cells arent bad and could be beneficial.
so long story short no need for secondary and no need to remove trub just leave it in primary for 2 weeks . three is prolly even better. ( minmum three if its a big beer)

good luck

Thank you! It's interesting to see how the thought on these things has evolved.

 

[mac_1103]

True enough though may present some danger if ever the gas flow blocked.

Blow off from the fermenter goes into a krausen catcher before it goes on to the carboy. If gas flow gets blocked, it's going to be coming out of the fermenter in the first place. What's going to block the 3/8" tubing coming out of the carboy? A gremlin with a clamp? Seems like the risk of the carboy getting pressurized is approximately zero. And the risk of the (not pressure rated) fermenter getting pressurized is approximately the same as it would have been without the carboy attached.

 

[huckdavidson]

What's going to block the 3/8" tubing coming out of the carboy?

It may seem like a non-issue and 99.9% of the time it is most likely nothing to be concered with but believe me when I say that I've seen the strangest of occurances that never should have happened and yet there it is right in front of me. I'm not advocating that it not be done just that precaution be taken should a child come along and jam their pen in the tube or some other such nonsense.

 

[mac_1103]

Well, the children are all grown up and moved away and don't spend too much time in my basement messing with my beer anymore. ISTM that the risk of a poppet getting plugged when purging a keg is probably greater.

 

[fluketamer]

" I've seen the strangest of occurances that never should have happened and yet there it is right in front of me."

murphys law corollary lol

 

[sibelman]

the risk of the carboy getting pressurized

Years ago, a hyperactive batch with lots of hop trub in the primary blocked my blowoff tube. It was attached to a ~3/8in copper tube that was jammed through a rubber super in the glass carboy. Popped the stopper out and made a bit of a mess.

So the risk is non-zero in some circumstances. Gumming up a keg/QD poppet seems much more likely, but kegs usually have PRVs.

Of course, the main subject is if/when to use a secondary, so this seems tangential.

If you're kegging, the serving keg can be your secondary. I take the current conventional wisdom to be that high gravity brews benefit from longer time at reasonable fermentation temperatures, that maybe it makes sense to transfer if it's gonna be more than a couple of months, and that avoiding oxygen is important, especially for hoppy styles.

 

[mac_1103]

Years ago, a hyperactive batch with lots of hop trub in the primary blocked my blowoff tube. It was attached to a ~3/8in copper tube that was jammed through a rubber super in the glass carboy. Popped the stopper out and made a bit of a mess.

You were fermenting in that carboy, right? That's not what I'm talking about.

I take the current conventional wisdom to be that high gravity brews benefit from longer time at reasonable fermentation temperatures, that maybe it makes sense to transfer if it's gonna be more than a couple of months, and that avoiding oxygen is important, especially for hoppy styles.

That's exactly what the purged carboy is for.

 

[redrocker652002]

Gonna chime in with what I use and do. Not a pro, but it seems to be working for now as I mess around in my head with other possible options. I have a 6 or 7 gallon bucket I got from Northern Brewer in my starter kit, 2 actually. They both have a spigot that sits about 2 inches or so above the bottom of the bucket. I ferment in them with an airlock in the lid that has the hole drilled and a rubber bung for the airlock to push into. I ferment for anywhere between 2 to 4 weeks depending on if I am dry hopping and when the FG is stable. I have left the beer in the fermenter for longer as life happens, but that is my average so far. On keg day, I will fill my keg with a mixture of Starsan and 5 gallons of water. Roll the keg a bit to get the Starsan to touch all the parts of the inside of the keg. I have a floating dip tube that I use as well if that means anything. I then hook up my keg to my tap line and run the Starsan thru the line to make sure it get into anything the beer with touch collecting it out of the tap with a 5 gallon pot. I then leave the pressure on the keg, bring the bucket out to my garage and set it on the washing machine. I will run a sanitzed line from the spigot of the bucket to a QD and put it on the Liquid end of the keg. I then open the spigot, release the keg pressure and let gravity do it's thing. I am thinking of trying to do a keg fermentation and then doing a full pressure transfer from my ferm keg to my serving keg, but have not made that jump yet as I have about 12 kegs to rebuild and really give a good cleaning too. With that said, that is what I do and I have had pretty good results. If bottling, I set the bucket on the counter, open the door to the dishwasher and put the bottles on the door of the dishwasher so any spillage just sits on the door and not on my floor. Makes the wife much happier that way. LOL. You will get a bunch of different ways to do the same thing, these folks rock with info and ideas. Take what you are given and do what is best for you.

Long winded answer to say no, I don't use a secondary and most of what I have read says you don't have to. You will get some sediment in the beer as you transfer it, but I put the bucket where it is going to be a couple of hours before transfer and that seems to allow the crud to settle back down.

 

[hotbeer]

But for people that do not move to a secondary fermenter, they suggest removing the trub, typically by starting with a conical fermenter. If I do not have a conical fermenter, can I just leave my beer in the carboy with the trub without it impacting flavor?

I don't use a secondary FV. I have kept beer on a very thick layer of trub for 5 to 6 weeks on more than a few occasions. They all were in my favorites category for taste, sparkling clarity and enjoyable to drink in every way.

The idea of removing trub from the beer ASAP seems to be more that some just want to dump it since they have a conical and can. From the posts I've read from others, many don't feel it impacts their beer greatly one way or the other.

I have a conical now, but I find I don't start dumping the trub till the beer is almost at the point I'm ready to bottle.

I also can't say that I've really seen a difference in whether I get a good cold break when cooling the wort after the boil so I can keep a lot of that mess out of the FV or whether I just pour everything into the FV. Which of course just seems to make a even thicker trub layer for the FV and less volume for beer if your FV is borderline in size for the quantity you want to brew. However there has been no difference for sparkling clarity of the beer when given enough time in the FV.

 

[Bobby_M]

I have been reading about the pros and cons of secondary fermentation, and it seems that a common consensus at the moment is that moving your beer to a secondary fermenter is not necessary because it will just give your beer more opportunities to become contaminated or oxidized. But for people that do not move to a secondary fermenter, they suggest removing the trub, typically by starting with a conical fermenter. If I do not have a conical fermenter, can I just leave my beer in the carboy with the trub without it impacting flavor? And if it would impact flavor, how long would it be before that becomes a problem?

You only need to leave it long enough for the majority of the particulate material to crash down to the bottom of the fermenter and that's usually about a week after fermentation is over.

 

[McMullan]

A secondary remains a valid option, if you wish to use one. To harvest a fresh yeast cake. To age beer off the yeast. To speed up conditioning (going bright) before final packaging. Or just to store beer without worrying about time running out to transfer it. In my experience (according to my taste), subtle off flavours or balance wondering slightly can be correlated with time left in primary. Weeks should be fine, though, in most cases. Pitching healthy yeast is key. It’s not just high pressure under tall commercial cylindroconicals that can make yeast cells breakdown and pop. A spent yeast cake goes through a “famine” stage at some point and the mortality rate increases. I like to transfer green beer off the yeast as soon as I can. A secondary usually works for me. Using CO2 from primary to purge secondary is pretty straight forward, even when using non pressure rated vessels. A low-pressure propane regulator can be used for safe pressure transfer from any vessel, except glass, just in case. The one I use (a DIY cask breather) doesn’t go above about 3 psi and can be stopped with gentle finger pressure. Note standard CO2 regulators are not designed to be reliable at such low pressure and should not be used anywhere near a non pressure rated vessel.

 

[homebeerbrewer]

Here's my $0.02. A secondary is great for dry hopping, adding fruit, or bulk aging. If you do use it, make sure it is clean and sanitized. Otherwise, a secondary isn't needed. The length of time on the yeast isn't a concern at the homebrew level, within reason. I typically leave my beers on the yeast for about 4 weeks. That correlates with my brewing schedule. I do a ~13% Barleywine every few years, and they stay on the yeast cake for 6 months. I have a dedicated fermenter for that purpose. The caveat to the time on the yeast may depend on the style of beer. Something like a kölsh, or any light colored, low alcohol beer, may benefit getting off the yeast sooner since there's not a lot to hide the off flavors behind.

In the end, everybody does their own thing. If you like your beer, then keep doing what you are doing. If you want to improve your beer, I'd suggest trying one thing at a time. Changing a recipe and your brewing process together may work, but you won't know what change made the biggest difference.