First Flanders - The plan and questions

I just moved to Ohio (from the desert in CA and NV), where I have discovered this wonderful thing called a "basement". Ambient temps tend to stay around 68 in the summer. Not sure about winter yet, but I can always use a fermwrap if need be.

Since I'll be here for a few years, I decided now is the time to make some beers that need age. First up is a flanders red.

I've been doing some research on it (thanks again to The Mad Fermentationist website) and decided on the following:

Jamil's Flanders Red Recipe- (est OG 1.059 - a tad high, may tweak, IBU 11.6)
Grain:
5.00 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain
5.00 lb Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) Grain
0.80 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain
0.50 lb Aromatic Malt (26.0 SRM) Grain
0.50 lb Caramunich Malt (56.0 SRM) Grain
0.50 lb Special B Malt (180.0 SRM)

1.0 oz Medium Toast French Oak Cubes in secondary (put in near boiling water for 15min first)

Mash @ 154 for 1 hour

Hops:
60 min 0.80 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (60 min)

Yeast (both pitched concurrently):
WLP-550
Jolly Pumpkin bottle dregs

Spend about 3 weeks in primary located in temp controlled chest freezer (6.5 gal better bottle), then rack to oak in secondary to sit in ambient basement temps (5 gallon BB) for as long as necessary.

Here are my questions:
1) Should I do a small starter for the bottle dregs? I realize only the Sacc and Brett may grow up, not the bacteria so much. I'll have 2 bottles of Jolly Pumpkin (La Roja bottled 12-10-10 and Oro de Calabaza bottled 1-7-11). Both have been at room temp in the bottle shop until last night. I plan to leave them in the fridge for the next 2-3 weeks to settle. There have been suggestions of a 1.020 starter right in the bottle of dregs. That sounds really simple.
2) Do I use the Mr. Malty pitching rate for the WLP550?
3) Good primary temp for WLP550? I was thinking 65F for entire primary, since I really don't need it to fully attenuate. It's easy enough to raise it though.
4) Will the Caramunich provide good head retention or should I also throw some wheat in there?
5) What water? My house has an R.O. system so I was planning on buying Sparklets or something similar. I haven't tweaked water profiles before and am not all that comfortable with tweaking my water yet. I'll do some experimenting with shorter turn beers in the upcoming months, but I'm open to messing with R.O. if recommended.

Any critiques and responses are appreciated! If turns out nice, you all are invited over for a beer sometime late next year! I'm also planning on starting another sour in a couple months so it can start going. Oh, the possibilities now that I have a basement... *sniff*

1) I don't think you need a starter for the dregs, but many people like to make them just to be sure they are active and don’t produce any weird flavors. If you do make it small and low gravity and don’t constantly aerate.

2) I would, you want a healthy primary fermentation (although under pitching slightly wouldn't be a big deal).

3) Sounds fine to me, a lot of the esters produced will be broken down by the Brett anyway.

4) Head retention with sours is tough, but many recipes for Flemish Reds call for wheat so it wouldn’t be out of place.

5) I'd think plain RO water would be too soft to get a good pH with a darkish beer, but a bit of chalk would fix that. In my opinion water adjustment isn't a big deal for sour beers (I'd never suggest copying their water profile).

Good luck, glad the blog helped send you in the right direction (the rest of your plan sounds spot on).

Thank you again, Sir!

I did read the bit about water on your site, but I was assuming it meant I had somewhat neutral water. I have never had anything close to neutral. I went from hard (water spots still on wife's car, months later) at around 8 pH to R.O. It will take me some time to figure that part out. For this beer, I think I'll just find some "spring" water from the store.

I listened to Ron Jeffries from Jolly Pumpkin talk about putting unmalted wheat in his beers. I don't necessarily intend to clone La Roja or anything, but I'm thinking 0.5lbs of it. I did notice the nice lacing in La Roja. I don't want to reduce any of the "specialty" malts so I was going to reduce the 2 bases slightly, just to get back under 1.060.

FWIW, I just made a Madrugada clone and used the dregs from the real thing. I stepped up a starter from 250mL to 1.5L. I then just pitched that as the only yeast. Fermentation has been really good for the last week and a half. I have yet to sample it, but it smells delicious. I guess I'm just saying that you can use those dregs if you don't want to bother with the 550. Then again, it might be good with both. I only did that because the CYBI podcast stated to use 550 for the Madrugada clone with a couple other yeasts OR the dregs. I went the easier route.

Sorry I didn't answer anything. And probably added more confusion.

I have fermented using JP dregs as the only yeast, and it worked well. However, the beer was much more sour then the original. I did a starter with the dregs from a bottle of Bam Biere, and stepped it up to about 1.5L before cold crashing it and using that. I think for a flemish red, the sourness is very appropriate, so that may work better. I have made one red, very similar to your recipe above, with the bugs added at secondary, and it was not sour enough. Now I toss my bugs in up front, and that seems to make for a much more tart and funky beer. Depends what you want I guess. Also, with the 550, I have heard in different interviews the Ron Jeffries starts his yeast in the mid to high 60's, but then lets it ramp up into the mid 70's, so if your ambient is 68F, I think you would be fine with that yeast. Good luck!

Thanks guys. I plan to play with the dregs a bit anyway. I would like to re-use the oak cubes from the red in future brews too. It's kind of cool to think I might have a house culture, granted totally stolen from someone else's house.

I did read from Oldsock's site that bugs in secondary don't produce as much, so I will be adding them with the WLP550. I will probably start the 550 at 65 and ramp up to 68 or 70. It's just a few button pushes, so easy enough. The long age will be ambient 68ish.

I just finished the CYBI on the Madrugada. Even though he didn't mean it that way, "good luck" was hilarious.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't flanders supposed to have minimal carbonation, thereby not really needing head retention?

elproducto said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't flanders supposed to have minimal carbonation, thereby not really needing head retention?

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From BJCP:
"Average to good head retention"
"Low to medium carbonation"

I have only had about 3 different flanders reds, but all of them had at least a nice head when poured and it hung around for a while. I wouldn't really care about the BJCP style, but I like head.

...as if there aren't enough jokes every time the foam on top of beer is mentioned...

Ok, thanks for the correction. I haven't actually made one, and have only tried a few Duchesse and Rodenbach Grand Cru.

I'm planning on making Jamil's Flanders with Roselare.. .can't wait.

I just brewed the Bam Biere clone from CYBI 2 days ago, and I'm doing the primary with Wyeast 1388 (It's what I had), and have a nice starter with JP dregs ready to pitch in secondary.

Good luck!

elproducto said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't flanders supposed to have minimal carbonation, thereby not really needing head retention?

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There are a couple that are minimally carbonated, like De Struise Earthmonk, but most of them have moderate carbonation (certainly not as strong as other sours like Gueuze or Berliner Weisse). Sour beers rarely have great head retention, not sure if it bugs eating through dextrins, pH screwing with the proteins, the lack of hops, or something else I haven't thought of.

I don't have high hopes, but a little lacing would be nice. It's definitely not a deal breaker though. I love sours.

Hello, I have also been considering making an extract+grains Flanders Red and would like comments and suggestions on what I have come up with during my research.

4.0 lbs Munich Extract (LME)
3.3 lbs Briess Pilsen (LME)
0.5 lbs Special B
0.5 lbs caramunich
0.5 lbs aromatic malt
1 tsp. Irish Moss (15 mins)
.075-1oz Hallertau Pellets
Wyeast Roselare Blend

I was going to steep the grains at 155F for 20-30 mins
Add extracts
Boil Time: 2 Hours
Hallertau hops with 60 mins left
Irish Moss with 15 mins left
Pitch yeast per directions

3 weeks in primary
Age 6 months in secondary with oak chips, read that using a plastic fermenter works well.
Add some form of sour dark cherry and age addition 2 months.
At this point I would start to bottle maybe 1-2 gallons at a time looking to age the remaining beer longer.

Comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Your plan seems fine up until bottling. You don’t want to leave a fermentor half filled, since that will allow more oxygen into contact with the beer (every time you open the lid you’ll get much more air into the fermentor). The beer will continue to age and evolve after bottling. Don’t try to put the beer on too much of a schedule, wait until the gravity is stable. Hope that helps, good luck!

Thank you for the response, I read that the micro-oxidation would actually be a good thing for some of the strains for the roselare blend/sour beers. However I would defer to people with more experience. Two questions, do you think that the extra oxygen in the beer if I bottle in sections create a significant enough effect to warrant NOT doing that? and does the gravity stabilize only after a long period of aging or does it stabilize early and then you just wait out the flavors marrying?

In my experience getting oxygen into an aging sour beer can improve it if done in just the right way, but really is not necessary to make a great beer. Micro-oxidation refers to the slow diffusion of oxygen through the fermentor (like the oak of a barrel) and not to having a head space loaded with air. If I’m not aging in a barrel I tend to use Better Bottles with stoppers and airlocks.

Gravity stabilization takes quite a bit of time, but once it has happened you can wait for the flavors to meld in the bottle. The more unfermentable the wort is the longer stabilization will take, but the more sourness and funky complexity the beer will eventually have.

Oldsock-

Have you played around with the ole wooden dowel?

I've got 2 different Flanders reds going; they are about a couple weeks in. One bugs were pitched in primary, the other after primary (1.020 gravity). I toasted a red oak dowel and have been soaking it in wine for the last few weeks to soften the flavor. I was going to drill some stoppers and drop the dowel into the beers. They are in glass. Sound good? Or just put a stopper on them? I figure 12-18 months for these.

Thanks, Jeff

I used oak pegs on my first few batches. Results were mediocre and I ended up cracking the neck of one of my carboys. Part of the issue is that the oxygen numbers were not really comparable to what those large oak foeders actually let in. For time, let gravity readings and flavor determine how long it needs to age.

So you just airlock yours correct? I'm hoping I won't crack b/c it is going through a rubber stopper. Maybe I'll skip it.

How often do you check gravity/taste? I was really hoping to just leave it alone for a long time. I don't like futzing all the time. Maybe I'm too hands off of a brewer for sours.

In terms of cracking you'll be fine with the stopper. The other issue I had was that CO2 built up faster than the wood would let it escape. As a result the pressure would push beer out through the wood (since the end of the wood was below the level of the wort). It might be a good idea to do an airlock for the first 2-3 months, then switch to the oak. A couple brewers I've talked to have mentioned switching to a hard bung on their barrels at this point.

in terms of weight, how much oak cube should I use for a 5 gallon batch? Also, would it be acceptable to soak the cubes in port wine or something like that before I add them to the flanders red...

Making a (WLP-550) starter now, to try this recipe this weekend. Will I need a starter for the Roeselare after racking off the WLP-550, after two weeks, or just pitch the smack pack as is?

I was planning on racking over to a secondary and pitching the Roeselare, letting that go for a couple months, then pitch the dregs from 2 bottles of La Roja after a couple months. Maybe adding some oak chips a few months in, and let it go.

No starter needed for Roselare if you are pitching it in the secondary.

I did 10 gallons of flanders red using Roeselare WLP-550. in 2 different glass carboys

Is there a need to transfer to secondary? I was planning on adding the oak chips to my primary after about 3 weeks. at that time i will take the airlock off and switch to an oak bung.

From my understanding the reason to use the roeselare is because it's an "all in one" yeast, so why transfer?

Traditionally flanders are racked off their yeast cakes, lambics are not. Leave it on the the cake for 2 months or so and then rack off.

milldoggy said:

Traditionally flanders are racked off their yeast cakes, lambics are not. Leave it on the the cake for 2 months or so and then rack off.

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I guess I will just use the cakes for my next batch which will be used for blending.


I was just wondering if there is a reason that they "traditionally" rack to secondary other than to use the yeast for your next batch?

Polorl69 said:

I guess I will just use the cakes for my next batch which will be used for blending.

I was just wondering if there is a reason that they "traditionally" rack to secondary other than to use the yeast for your next batch?

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Think it has to do with the method. Flanders age in brite tanks, not oak. Something like that. My boss has my wild brews book so I can't look it up.

Racking off the yeast gives the finished beer a cleaner sour flavor. That is part of the reason they don’t have the big funky nose of a gueuze. Reds are traditionally aged in big oak tanks after a primary fermentation in stainless steel tanks, rather than the wine barrels used for lambic.

Here is a great little overview of how Rodenbach does it (written by Peter Bouckaert, the former head brewer there, and current New Belgium Brewmaster): http://hbd.org/brewery/library/Rodnbch.html

I'm getting ready to taste this beer next month, which will mark approximately the 1 year mark in secondary. Two more questions for now:

- I plan to bottle. Should I carb in a keg first or bottle condition? I like the later idea, but the risk of failure is influencing my decision.
- I plan to make two sours to pitch the dregs/used oak cubes into. How much trub should I grab for each? Edit: I will also be pitching a new primary yeast.

If you bottle, you might want to add a small amount of the starter for your next brew into the bottling bucket. After a year, the sacc is probably gone and it might take a long time to fully condition without additional yeast.

Some people pitch onto a full cake, and say they get much more souring, and quicker. Probably due to having a large population of Brett, Lacto, and Pedio right at the start. I like to take only a part of the cake (15 to 20%), and allow the Brett and bugs build up new populations over time.

Yeah I was going to add a quarter of a vial to the bottling keg, but the starter is probably a better idea. I just haven't bottle conditioned in such a long time, I don't have the confidence in it like I do with force carbing. Thanks for the response!

Alright, so I started my batch back in April, figured it'd be a good time to take my first sample. Wow, does it taste fantastic! I'm surprised how well it's soured in only 4 months. I do have a concern though.

I see that the liquid in my airlock was a bit low, and it appears I have a spot of mold growing on there. Prior to taking a sample, it appeared I had a fairly strong growth (whiteness forming) on the edges of the brew in the carboy. I think back then, I was likely just putting sterilized water in my airlocks, and I have since been using vodka. I topped off the airlock with vodka, and 15 minutes later, the ring of growth seemed to have dispersed from the edges.

I have a stout (my first atempt at a sour) that I started to sour a month before this Flanders. It looks like I've got a decent pellicle forming on it. It looks to be normal from what I've read on pellicles, and a sample a couple weeks ago, tasted great.

The ring of growth on my Flanders looked different than the pellicle on the stout. I'm not sure if this is just the early stage or if I may indeed have an infection. I've got another Flanders that I started a month after the first, and no signs of a pellicle yet.

Keep in mind, I've added dregs from many a bottle of Jolly Pumpkin. Do I have anything to worry about? I'd hate to have an infection, as this already tastes so great. But then again, if I do have an infection, what are the consequences if I just ride it out? Will my beer still be drinkable or might there be some related hazards? I wish I could attach some decent photos to share, but I don't have a flashlight, and where I'm storing my sours is pretty dark. I'll see if I can get some photos up soon.