Extension Cord

So my wife and I just recently bought a house and moved in. It fit all our needs except I seemed to miss the electricity part in my planned brew area. It's unfinished basement area and there is some power about 20 feet away. So I am looking for some electric people to help me out and tell me if this will work or not for a little while

Currently the gas dryer pulls 9A/1080 watts. It (at least according to the circuit breaker) is on its own 15 amp circuit. My Keg fridge pulls 4.5 amps at 115 volts, so thats 518 watts. If I were to plug the fridge in, when both are on I would be at 89% capacity or so, which to my limit knowledge is not ideal, right? The second part to this equation is that I would be running it over an extension cord (12 gauge 25 ft). So is this ok, or am I gonna need to wait until I can have an electrician come and run some new outlets? Thanks in advance for the help, and yes I know its probably not legal/up-to-code to do this (although its not going through walls or haning from the ceiling), but i am more worried about whether it is safe or not.

As an electrical engineer- circuit breakers should not be loaded above 80%, by code. So at 89%, you would probably trip it, or it would trip after a period of time (a few minutes).

The extension cord is fine for the kind of load that the fridge has. Maybe there's another circuit within 25 feet?

That probably is more than the surge current of the dryer motor. It should be fine. It will only pull surge current for a second or so and not long enough to pull the breaker.

If that circuit is wired with 12 AWG you can safely upgrade the breaker and receptical to 20 amp.

Yes, it should be safe. Just get the business ends of the cords off the floor in case you get any moisture. The way I understand it, the 80% rule applies to continuous loads (3 hours or more). Neither your dryer nor your refrigerator qualify for that. Worst case, you will flip your breaker and know you cannot do it, but I would put my money on it working fine.

ivegot2legs said:

As an electrical engineer- circuit breakers should not be loaded above 80%, by code. So at 89%, you would probably trip it, or it would trip after a period of time (a few minutes).

The extension cord is fine for the kind of load that the fridge has. Maybe there's another circuit within 25 feet?

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jeffmeh said:

Yes, it should be safe. Just get the business ends of the cords off the floor in case you get any moisture. The way I understand it, the 80% rule applies to continuous loads (3 hours or more). Neither your dryer nor your refrigerator qualify for that. Worst case, you will flip your breaker and know you cannot do it, but I would put my money on it working fine.

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Can we get any confirmation on this - I know what Jeff has said is true in NZ but what get spouted on this site as the law in the USA seems to be the 80% limit. This just seems ridiculous to me since if it was always 80%, then why not drop the ratings to the 80% mark and call them 100% (if that made any sense) then people wouldn't go wrong because any "normal" person would stay below 100% of the rating

Running a load like that, on a 15A circuit and probably 14 awg could generate voltage drop issues, destroying the motors in the fridge and the dryer.

Then you are out two appliances instead of $50 for wire, a breaker, and a receptacle. It's happened to me.

I still think it's much ado about nothing. I suspect that the amperage draws he lists are the surge currents for the motors, so if they both surged at the same time they would draw 13.5 amps for a few seconds before dropping down. A properly wired 15a circuit should handle that fine.

mattd2 said:

Can we get any confirmation on this - I know what Jeff has said is true in NZ but what get spouted on this site as the law in the USA seems to be the 80% limit. This just seems ridiculous to me since if it was always 80%, then why not drop the ratings to the 80% mark and call them 100% (if that made any sense) then people wouldn't go wrong because any "normal" person would stay below 100% of the rating

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Because there are variables that need to be considered for each situation. There is not one peanut butter rule that can be spread across all.

From Schneider Electric - Square D:

The continuous current rating of a circuit breaker is the maximum current in amperes (dc or rms ac at
rated frequency) which a device will carry continuously without exceeding the specified allowable
temperature rise. Sometimes referred to as the ampere rating or handle rating of the circuit breaker,
the continuous current rating relates to the system current flow under normal conditions.

UL and CSA require that circuit breakers must be able to carry their continuous current rating
indefinitely at 40°C in free air in order to achieve a UL Listing/CSA Certification. The National Electrical
Code (NEC) and the Canadian Electrical Code (CEC) recognize that devices applied in end-use
equipment can be affected by heat build up during normal operating conditions. For this reason, the
codes require that circuit breakers be selected based on the characteristics of the load (particularly,
the portion of the load which will be on continuously for three hours or more at a time).

Click to expand...

As you see, breakers are rated 100% in a specified condition but potentially have de-rating applied depending on use.

ivegot2legs said:

Running a load like that, on a 15A circuit and probably 14 awg could generate voltage drop issues, destroying the motors in the fridge and the dryer.

Then you are out two appliances instead of $50 for wire, a breaker, and a receptacle. It's happened to me.

Click to expand...

Voltage drop is contingent on the load current, length, gauge, and conductor material of wires (more simply load current and wire resistance). Then, while there are guidelines for max allowable voltage drop, the tolerance of the given devices factors in too regarding potential damage that may result from it.

While it is a factor to contemplate, there isn't enough information provided to know if there would be unacceptable voltage drop in this situation.

ivegot2legs said:

As an electrical engineer- circuit breakers should not be loaded above 80%, by code. So at 89%, you would probably trip it, or it would trip after a period of time (a few minutes).

The extension cord is fine for the kind of load that the fridge has. Maybe there's another circuit within 25 feet?

Click to expand...

Maybe, but nothing dedicated to one outlet. There is a Media Room/Bathroom circuit. not sure what all is connected to that - and I would be breaking code violations going through doorways and whatnot. There is a separate 15A circuit for the washer, however, I can't find out how much that is drawing. Only thing in the manual is that it requires a 15A receptacle and it is best that it is the only thing on it. It is a brand new high efficiency so I would think the energy draw would be lower right?

Malticulous said:

That probably is more than the surge current of the dryer motor. It should be fine. It will only pull surge current for a second or so and not long enough to pull the breaker.

If that circuit is wired with 12 AWG you can safely upgrade the breaker and receptical to 20 amp.

Click to expand...

Not sure, I tried to look at the wire running to that and it is just unmarked white wire, so i can't tell. Here is a picture of that in the breaker box:

ivegot2legs said:

Running a load like that, on a 15A circuit and probably 14 awg could generate voltage drop issues, destroying the motors in the fridge and the dryer.

Then you are out two appliances instead of $50 for wire, a breaker, and a receptacle. It's happened to me.

Click to expand...

Is it most likely the wire to the outlet is 14AWG?

brettwasbtd said:

but i am more worried about whether it is safe or not.

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If the breaker is wired with the proper wire size. i.e 15amp breaker 15 amp outlet and 14 AWG wire. Your safe!
But that looks like a 20 amp breaker for the dryer. Am I missing something?

Cheers
Jay

Jaybird said:

If the breaker is wired with the proper wire size. i.e 15amp breaker 15 amp outlet and 14 AWG wire. Your safe!
But that looks like a 20 amp breaker for the dryer. Am I missing something?

Cheers
Jay

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Ya, looking at the picture i took of the box, the washer and dryer have 20 amp breakers (red), so I guess the question is what gauge that wire is? The electrical was finaled in 1983, so it should be 12AWG?

brettwasbtd said:

Ya, looking at the picture i took of the box, the washer and dryer have 20 amp breakers (red), so I guess the question is what gauge that wire is? The electrical was finaled in 1983, so it should be 12AWG?

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Yes for sure it "should" be 12 AWG. If you have no idea at all and don't have strippers or anything like that. Go to the hardware store and ask them for a 2" cut of both 12 and 14 AWG they will cut you a small strip then just match em up.
Cheers
Jay

brettwasbtd said:

Ya, looking at the picture i took of the box, the washer and dryer have 20 amp breakers (red), so I guess the question is what gauge that wire is? The electrical was finaled in 1983, so it should be 12AWG?

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Yes, it should be 12ga. Unless you have reason to believe -
1. The wiring was done by a hack, and
2. The wiring was never inspected, or
3. Some other hack has changed wiring after inspection...

I believe it is safe to assume it is properly wired with 12ga cable.

If it is the only outlet on a 20a circuit it should look like this

Well, actually, one 15A duplex receptacle can be used on a 20A circuit. However, a single 15A receptacle cannot be used on a 20A circuit.

whoaru99 said:

Well, actually, one 15A duplex receptacle can be used on a 20A circuit. However, a single 15A receptacle cannot be used on a 20A circuit.

Click to expand...

I believe a duplex receptacle is considered one outlet, but it has been years since I read that part of the code since I mostly do controls.

Single is single. A duplex is two receptacles.

Using just one 15A receptacle, like this example, is not permissible on a 20A circuit.

whoaru99 said:

Because there are variables that need to be considered for each situation. There is not one peanut butter rule that can be spread across all.

Schneider Electric - Square D said:

The continuous current rating of a circuit breaker is the maximum current in amperes (dc or rms ac at
rated frequency) which a device will carry continuously without exceeding the specified allowable
temperature rise. Sometimes referred to as the ampere rating or handle rating of the circuit breaker,
the continuous current rating relates to the system current flow under normal conditions.

UL and CSA require that circuit breakers must be able to carry their continuous current rating
indefinitely at 40°C in free air in order to achieve a UL Listing/CSA Certification. The National Electrical
Code (NEC) and the Canadian Electrical Code (CEC) recognize that devices applied in end-use
equipment can be affected by heat build up during normal operating conditions. For this reason, the
codes require that circuit breakers be selected based on the characteristics of the load (particularly,
the portion of the load which will be on continuously for three hours or more at a time).

Click to expand...

As you see, breakers are rated 100% in a specified condition but potentially have de-rating applied depending on use.

Click to expand...

But how many household appliances fall under that "continuously for three hours or more at a time" and are high current? I would certainly think a fridge would not, and a dryer would not unless you are raising a football team
Of corse the other factors such as number of breakers in the panel, loads for them, design of the panel to dissipate heat all have an effect. But Schneider's quote seems to imply that the installer should be selecting the correct circuit breaker so that the above issues are within the breakers limits. Not just install something and de-rate it, which if they did do that in a residential property that derated information will likely get lost as soon as the electrician walks out the door, and when the property gets sold multiple times and the new owners look in the panel sees 15 amp fuses it is reasonable to expect that they are likely to assume they can carry a 15 amp load (ignoring the 3 hour continous load 80% derate issue which is more than a typical normal householder would run a high current load and if doing so probably should know that he should only continously run only 80% of the rated value)

whoaru99 said:

Single is single. A duplex is two receptacles.

Using just one 15A receptacle, like this example, is not permissible on a 20A circuit.

Click to expand...

What is the reason for that? I can see it from my above comment of it would be reasonable to expect an unknowing person to think that just because the breaker is 20A they can run 20A through that socket (which is only rated for 15A), but shouldn't the 15A sockets / 20A plug pins not mate so you can not actually plug a 20A load into the 15A socket?

mattd2 said:

But how many household appliances fall under that "continuously for three hours or more at a time" and are high current? I would certainly think a fridge would not, and a dryer would not unless you are raising a football team
Of corse the other factors such as number of breakers in the panel, loads for them, design of the panel to dissipate heat all have an effect. But Schneider's quote seems to imply that the installer should be selecting the correct circuit breaker so that the above issues are within the breakers limits. Not just install something and de-rate it, which if they did do that in a residential property that derated information will likely get lost as soon as the electrician walks out the door, and when the property gets sold multiple times and the new owners look in the panel sees 15 amp fuses it is reasonable to expect that they are likely to assume they can carry a 15 amp load (ignoring the 3 hour continous load 80% derate issue which is more than a typical normal householder would run a high current load and if doing so probably should know that he should only continously run only 80% of the rated value)

Click to expand...

Yes, of course that's what Schneider means; the electrician/installer is responsible to size the conductors and breakers appropriately according to Code. This means taking all that stuff into consideration so it just works, safely, for the end user without looking up some factor in a de-rate table. If the end user starts modifying/doing non-standard things with their wiring then the onness is on them to know the rules/regulations.

NEC is complex. This is why there are electricians and licensing, inspectors/inspections, and why often electrical discussions on internet forums turn into disasters. Things like the 80% loading are presented out of context to people that don't know about the context, and all of a sudden people are worried their house isn't wired correctly or if plugging in an extra light is going to burn down their house.

mattd2 said:

What is the reason for that? I can see it from my above comment of it would be reasonable to expect an unknowing person to think that just because the breaker is 20A they can run 20A through that socket (which is only rated for 15A), but shouldn't the 15A sockets / 20A plug pins not mate so you can not actually plug a 20A load into the 15A socket?

Click to expand...

20A plugs do not fit into 15A receptacles. A 15A plug has two vertical flat pins. In a 20A plug one of them is turned 90 degrees to the other. Like this example.



Of course, that doesn't stop some hack from doing things that really shouldn't be done, like cut the 20A plug off and replace it with a 15A plug.

whoaru99 said:

Single is single. A duplex is two receptacles.

Using just one 15A receptacle, like this example, is not permissible on a 20A circuit.

Click to expand...

Ya, its your standard 2 socket outlet (15 amps) just like the picture only there are two of them...it does not have the sideways receptacle like a 20 amp. It looks like each of them is only connected to one wire.

To stir this up even more, I will show you the panel...I was researching and there could be any number of causes, but when the AC kicks we get a decent light dimming haha. I will probably have an electrician investigate when I have them to come run the wire to the brew area...but I gotta save up for that. I'm thinking I should be ok running just the fridge, but am still thinking about it before plugging it in.

A duplex receptacle having just one pair of wires (not considering equipment ground) is normal if it's the only one on the circuit or at the end of the run or if the receptacles are pigtailed into the circuit.

Yeah, there are many things that could be wrong, but most likely there is nothing wrong. Haven't heard anything yet that tends to indicate some sort of abnormality. It's not unusual to see brief dimming of the lights when a heavy load like AC kicks in. Also, it doesn't take much drop in voltage to cause lights to dim. Just a 5% drop in voltage results in something on the order of 15% decrease of light output so even small, intermittent load induced voltage sags can result in noticeable dimming.

whoaru99 said:

A duplex receptacle having just one pair of wires (not considering equipment ground) is normal if it's the only one on the circuit or at the end of the run or if the receptacles are pigtailed into the circuit.

Yeah, there are many things that could be wrong, but most likely there is nothing wrong. Haven't heard anything yet that tends to indicate some sort of abnormality. It's not unusual to see brief dimming of the lights when a heavy load like AC kicks in. Also, it doesn't take much drop in voltage to cause lights to dim. Just a 5% drop in voltage results in something on the order of 15% decrease of light output so even small, intermittent load induced voltage sags can result in noticeable dimming.

Click to expand...

Ya I think it still is the only thing connected. the breaker box and all the cables run behind the wall for about 15 feet or so into the unfinished side. I traced the cable to the wall, so i believe its not connected to anything else.

In my research I did see a lot of the "our eyes noticed very small changes in light." What about for a hair dryer? My wife was saying the lights pulse when she is using it. I have not been there to see this yet. Is that something to be worried about? I just automatically think this is not normal since I grew up in a house built in the 50's (original wiring) and never had things like this happen - house built in the 80s not to either, but I am very new to this home ownership thing

I have fluorescent lights in my bathroom and the lights flicker just a tiny bit for a split second when I turn on my hair drier. For a standard lighting circuit a typical hair drier is a sizeable load; often they're 1500-1600 watts which is roughly 13 amps, and maybe the curling iron, etc. is plugged in too creating additional load. Problem is, now that you're keyed into the light dimming thing you're probably going to see it everywhere because you're looking for it.

Personally, I don't think there's a problem. If you had said the lights dim and stay dim or when it happened that some lights dimmed and others got brighter then I'd say there would be a potentially serious concern that needs to be checked out.

All that said, if you're worried about it have it checked out because it's no fun to have a concern like that weighing on your mind.

Thanks! To my knowledge it is only dimming. With the AC its just at the start and I know that can be normal, waiting to hear from my wife on whether the hair dryer is just at the start or throughout. I am pretty sure they don't get brighter, so thats good! I am going to need power in the brew area at some point anyways, so I will just ask the electrician when I have them come out for that.

So I think we have determine the dryer plug can handle the keg fridge being hooked up, right? It appears it is a 20 amp circuit running a the duplex 15A receptacle.

brettwasbtd said:

Ya, its your standard 2 socket outlet (15 amps) just like the picture only there are two of them...it does not have the sideways receptacle like a 20 amp. It looks like each of them is only connected to one wire.

To stir this up even more, I will show you the panel...I was researching and there could be any number of causes, but when the AC kicks we get a decent light dimming haha. I will probably have an electrician investigate when I have them to come run the wire to the brew area...but I gotta save up for that. I'm thinking I should be ok running just the fridge, but am still thinking about it before plugging it in.

Click to expand...

At the end of the day, it should be ok. It's no more likely to cause a fire than any other appliance running.

But if something isn't right- the breaker trips, one/both appliances don't work right, or something else noticeable, then change your plan.