Issues with bottle conditioning

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Nike_Eayrs

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In the past I have had issues with bottle conditioning. As the beer matured it became over carbed. There were a couple batches that were almost impossible to pour into a glass. With the most recent recipe I scaled back to 1/2 cup table sugar to prime a 5.5 gallon batch. It took longer to carb, but eventually the same issue arose. Any ideas what I'm doing wrong? Cheers!
 
How long are you letting the beers stay in primary? What yeast are you using? Are you 100% sure of the volume going to bottles? Have you tried one of the calculation sites/tools for getting how much sugar (by WEIGHT) to use? Volume measure is not the better/good way to measure the sugar. Weight is the only accurate method of measure. How long are you letting the bottles chill, in the fridge, before you to go pour one to glass?
 
Are you taking an original gravity and final gravity reading (to be sure your beer is done fermenting)?
How long are you allowing your beer to ferment before bottling?
Northern Brewer has a calculator to help you with how much sugar to put in,
http://www.northernbrewer.com/priming-sugar-calculator/
but if your beer isn't finished fermenting before you bottle it, you'll definitely be over-carbed.
 
First, you must be sure that fermentation is complete. After that, another week or two for the yeasts to absorb their by-prodcts never hurts. Next, you need to be sure of the volume and temperature of your beer at bottling time and use a carbonation calculator and then weigh your priming sugar.
Brewing isn't as simple as some make it sound. Decent beer comes with practice. Good beer comes with practice and patience. Great beer comes with practice, patience, understanding your past mistakes and reading/listening to the wisdom of many others.
This is a great hobby that will pay great dividends, but, as with many other things in life, you'll only get out of it what you are willing to put into it.

Bob
 
If you are not already - rack to a secondary and wait for the gravity to not change for 3-5 days before bottling?
Might want to check and see what the avg attenuation of your yeast strain is and find out what the attenuation of your batch is to see if you are landing in-range. This is not the best way to tell, but if all of your batches are coming in too low it may be an indication you are not waiting long enough.
or

Without priming, take a gravity reading, bottle a couple-few bottles and wait for two-three weeks to see if they carb up. If they do then the weeks that you waited will have been enough time for you to have checked for gravity changes in the main batch. This will tell you if you have waited long enough. The extra couple weeks should not hurt provided you rack to a secondary.
If that doesn't work maybe you could try 4-5 carb tablets in a couple bottles (put un-primed beer in these bottles). With these it is very hard to over carb if you follow the directions. You might get some floaties from the tabs, but it is only a couple bottles.
If you are using enzymes use them before the boil.

That's all I got for the supplied info. Hope this helps
 
I am new to brewing, but have brewed about 10 batches of beer from pales to porters and bottled them all. For every batch I have used 2/3 cup of corn surgar and have not had a problem with any of them.
 
With all the beer I have made, there seems to be a 2-3 week period where it is perfect. After that, it is way over carbed. I take gravity readings before and after to make sure beer is done fermenting. The yeast I use primarily is wyeast 1056, or white labs san diego super strain. I have let batches sit from 12-15 days to 5 weeks, and the problem seems to remain the same. I have set them in the fridge for a day to a week, and the problem remains the same. I am going to buy a scale to accurately measure the amount of sugar I put in, and see if that makes a difference. Would using corn sugar instead of table sugar make a difference? Would cold crashing help? Thanks for all the help!
 
With all the beer I have made, there seems to be a 2-3 week period where it is perfect. After that, it is way over carbed. I take gravity readings before and after to make sure beer is done fermenting. The yeast I use primarily is wyeast 1056, or white labs san diego super strain. I have let batches sit from 12-15 days to 5 weeks, and the problem seems to remain the same. I have set them in the fridge for a day to a week, and the problem remains the same. I am going to buy a scale to accurately measure the amount of sugar I put in, and see if that makes a difference. Would using corn sugar instead of table sugar make a difference? Would cold crashing help? Thanks for all the help!

Weigh the sugar and aim for the middle of the style range. I would also use the temperature of the beer where it is at bottling. You can always tweak the numbers if you're getting too little carbonation. IMO, having a bit less is far better than have too much.

Of course, I really don't worry about these things anymore. :D
 
If you are not already - rack to a secondary and wait for the gravity to not change for 3-5 days before bottling?
Might want to check and see what the avg attenuation of your yeast strain is and find out what the attenuation of your batch is to see if you are landing in-range. This is not the best way to tell, but if all of your batches are coming in too low it may be an indication you are not waiting long enough.
or

Without priming, take a gravity reading, bottle a couple-few bottles and wait for two-three weeks to see if they carb up. If they do then the weeks that you waited will have been enough time for you to have checked for gravity changes in the main batch. This will tell you if you have waited long enough. The extra couple weeks should not hurt provided you rack to a secondary.
If that doesn't work maybe you could try 4-5 carb tablets in a couple bottles (put un-primed beer in these bottles). With these it is very hard to over carb if you follow the directions. You might get some floaties from the tabs, but it is only a couple bottles.
If you are using enzymes use them before the boil.

That's all I got for the supplied info. Hope this helps

I currently don't rack to a secondary. I have read some swear by it, and others state it is not necessary. Would moving to a secondary potentially help the issue? Thanks!
 
Would using corn sugar instead of table sugar make a difference?

I don't think so, other than the amounts are slightly different for the desired carbonation level, requiring slightly more corn sugar than table sugar to achieve the same, about +5%, I think.
 
I currently don't rack to a secondary. I have read some swear by it, and others state it is not necessary. Would moving to a secondary potentially help the issue? Thanks!

IMO/IME, not one lick... Just more work, and more risks of something going sideways. Better off just leaving it in primary until you go to bottle it up.
 
I secondary every batch, but that's because I like having less potential trub in my bottling bucket. It won't help or hurt carbonation at all... and it does add another step.

For my money, OP, the fact that you cut back to a half cup of sugar makes me think that you're just overcarbing the beer. Looking at an Irish red ale (the last one I brewed), I come up with .44 cups of table sugar for a 5 gallon batch to get 2.2 volumes of CO2.
 
I secondary every batch, but that's because I like having less potential trub in my bottling bucket. It won't help or hurt carbonation at all... and it does add another step.

Proper racking eliminates that as a reason to use a secondary. If you're that sloppy out of primary, then you need to work on that.
 
How's your sanitation? If fermentation is truly finished and you are properly measuring both your beer volume and priming sugar weight, the overcarbonation over time may be the result of a wild yeast and/or bacterial infection.
 
Seems to me an infection issue. The only "gushers" I have had were infected. I would check your equipment for infection and replace all tubing and anything else you can afford to replace that is plastic. Those you can't replace, ensure a thorough cleaning and sanitation before use. At this point, I would recommend over-doing it (cleaning and sanitation) for a while to ensure this happens as little as possible.

Edit: What JLem said.
 
With all the beer I have made, there seems to be a 2-3 week period where it is perfect. After that, it is way over carbed.

Then you have an infection issue more than likely. If you've checked to make sure fermentation is complete, left suffficient time (REGARDLESS OF WHETHER IT'S IN THE SECONDARY OR LONG PRIMARY) for the yeast to do it's thing. Added ONLY the correct amount of sugar (weighing is best, because there's too much variability in measuring dry ingredients by volume, try this experiment, take a measuring cup, fill it with brown sugar, then get another cup fill it with brown sugar, the PUSH DOWN THE BROWN SUGAR and fill it with more brown sugar and tell me if it's the same amount of sugar in there. Or fill a measuring cup 3/4 of the way with white sugar, then whack it on the counter a few times till it looks like it's gone down and then add more sugar to get it back to 3/4 of a cup, and tell me if there's the same amount of not of sugar in there.) And waited a minimum of 3 weeks with the beer at or above 70 degrees, if it THEN has been fine for a few weeks but then starts to gush, then you have something consuming unfermentable sugars in there, which means an infection.

Carbonation, like fermentation has a finite stopping point, determined by the tiredness, and or type of yeast (attenuation) AND the amount of fermentable sugars present to be eaten by the yeast. In the case of carbonation the amount of co2 is determined by the amount of fermentable sugar added at bottling to a beer in which the fermentation is already complete. The yeast can ONLY in normal situations, eat the sugar given it, and nothing more...and therefore only produce a finite amount of gas, which takes about three weeks, and then when a beer is fully carbed, THEN it should NOT carb any further, because there should be nothing else fermentable in there, and therefore no more gas should be able to be produced...

If you are stable for awhile but then suddenly more co2 is being produced in the bottle, and there's NO fermentable sugars in there, then the ONLY thing that could be happening is there is something either eating unfermenable sugars, OR converting the unfermentable sugars into fermentable ones to be eaten by the yeast, and that is an ABNORMAL situation, which means there's a micro-organism in there other than standard yeast messing with things...which means an infection.

Whether you secondary or not has nothing to do with this, whether you cold crash or not has nothing to do with this.

The only things of relevance is 1) Are you sure fermentation is complete before bottling (which usually if you leave the beer for a month, more than likely it is done, especially if it's in primary where the potentiality of not racking too soon and possibly sticking the fermentation can't occur OR making sure after racking that fermentation didn't restart in secondary.) 2)Using the right amount of sugar (which is hard to do without measureing. 3) Did you leave the beer sufficient time to actually carb (minimum 3 weeks) and 4)Was the beer actually carbed for a period of time AFTER it reached the right carb level, BEFORE overcarbing?

Bottle conditioning is really foolproof under most circumstances, especially if you follow what I mentioned above. You add the right amount of sugar to finished beer, and wait the right amount of time, and everythign should be fine. If you've met those conditions correctly, then the only thing that could cause a late onset gusher is an infection. BUT if you've strayed in anyway from what I wrote, then you could have problems, or if it's too early, THINK you have problems.

Everything else is really irrevelent to the discussion at hand.
 
If you are stable for awhile but then suddenly more co2 is being produced in the bottle, and there's NO fermentable sugars in there, then the ONLY thing that could be happening is there is something either eating unfermenable sugars, OR converting the unfermentable sugars into fermentable ones to be eaten by the yeast, and that is an ABNORMAL situation, which means there's a micro-organism in there other than standard yeast messing with things...which means an infection.

I'm going to explain the situation in a little more detail. The last batch that I made (which is pretty congruent with my other batches) was that the carbonation increased as bottle conditioning took place. When I stated there was a 3 week period that things were good, I really meant drinkable. The carbonation continued to increase, but it was within a "normal" range. The last IPA I made has now been in the bottle for about 10 weeks. I would not say that it "gushes" out when opened. Instead as I pour, the head fills to the top. I let the head reduce, and pour again. I have not tested opening the bottle to see if it would foam out on it's own.

I hope sanitation is not the issue, I am very extreme when it comes to this. Racking cane, hoses, buckets and the sort are washed and moved to the dishwasher to further disinfect them. I am, however going to get all new tubing in the event that this could be the issue. In addition, I am going to get a scale to better estimate the abount of priming sugar needed. I don't harvest yeast, so new yeast is used for each batch (I had a bad experience attempting this, and just figure one thing at a time for now). Worst possible case senario.....I'll just drink em faster! I really appreciate everyone's help! I would be lost without this site. Revvy, you have lended more help than the owner of my LHBS! I'm making another batch this weekend and will more closely monitor primimg when the time comes. Cheers!
 
But have you cleaned or replace your bottling spigot ? A lot of people neglect it. And there are pictures on here about gunk and biomatter in the ball valve. There are explanations on here about how to dump them in hot water to soften them then pull them apart to clean. Or you can just replace them.
 
But have you cleaned or replace your bottling spigot ? A lot of people neglect it. And there are pictures on here about gunk and biomatter in the ball valve. There are explanations on here about how to dump them in hot water to soften them then pull them apart to clean. Or you can just replace them.

Really good point. Be sure to break that spigot down between every batch; you might be amazed at what you can find there.
 
How's your sanitation? If fermentation is truly finished and you are properly measuring both your beer volume and priming sugar weight, the overcarbonation over time may be the result of a wild yeast and/or bacterial infection.

This is what I was going to say. I had over carb issues some time back. One day I realized my "clean" bottles weren't as clean as I thought they were. I used to just rinse the bottles with hot water 2 or 3 times after I poured the beer out. It turns out that a lot of them still had a film of dried yeast on them. I started soaking all of my bottles in hot oxiclean for a couple days prior to bottling, and I never had the problem again. These days I have a bucket with oxiclean solution in it, and I just drop bottles in as I empty them. After it has about 10-12 bottles I rinse them and box them up for bottling day. This keeps me stocked up, so I don't have to wash 55-60 bottles at one time.
 
This is what I was going to say. I had over carb issues some time back. One day I realized my "clean" bottles weren't as clean as I thought they were. I used to just rinse the bottles with hot water 2 or 3 times after I poured the beer out. It turns out that a lot of them still had a film of dried yeast on them. I started soaking all of my bottles in hot oxiclean for a couple days prior to bottling, and I never had the problem again. These days I have a bucket with oxiclean solution in it, and I just drop bottles in as I empty them. After it has about 10-12 bottles I rinse them and box them up for bottling day. This keeps me stocked up, so I don't have to wash 55-60 bottles at one time.

I agree, I've had some issues over time on individual bottles, and I know that I've been less than thorough in bottle cleaning.

In the next couple weeks I'm FINALLY going to bottle the 5 year barleywine. And I've actually going to get oldschool and boil all the stubby bottles like they were canning jars a few days before (after re-oxycleaning the bottles) then do normal sanitization. I just want to make sure there's no chance of anything being in those bottles.
 
I currently don't rack to a secondary. I have read some swear by it, and others state it is not necessary. Would moving to a secondary potentially help the issue? Thanks!

I was suggesting to rack it off the primary yeast cake if it was going to be sitting in a prolonged troubleshooting state in a fermenter to avoid any autolysis issues. Sorry, I wasn't clear.
 
I was suggesting to rack it off the primary yeast cake if it was going to be sitting in a prolonged troubleshooting state in a fermenter to avoid any autolysis issues. Sorry, I wasn't clear.

People have left their beers in primary for a year with no "autolysis issues;" that whole rack the beer off the yeast hysteria has been pretty munch debunked, INCLUDING by John Palmer who sparked the whole panic to begin with.

Read this, and you'll see that even John Palmer, who caused the whole autolysis panic among new brewers like you has retracted his views on it....

Nowadays even many instructions, in BYO magazine, and even some kits suggest a long primary as opposed to using a secondary. So it's pretty obviously that they're not buying that bogeyman anymore either.

I suggest you read THIS thread, it's become the "uber discussion" on this topic thread.

To Secondary or Not? John Palmer and Jamil Zainasheff Weigh In .


Autolysis is not the inevitable end of healthy yeast. It is the unnatural end that is a product of yeast health...like peritinitus or even cancer in us....it is an abberation....UNHEALTHY AND STRESSED yeast autolyse... but rarely do we have unhealthy yeast these days, most of the yeast we pitch is fresh...and unless we are making a huge beer, even underpitching will not NECESSARILY produce stressed out yeast. Or stressed out yeast that will automatically autlolyse....

Most yeast that folks call dead, is actually dormant. Like most of what's in the bottom of the fermenter when fermentation is complete. And the yeast is indead dead, a lot of it is canibalized by the living yeast. And the rest, if the yeast was healthy to begin with, is just dead....think of it as natural causes, it's not necessarily spilling it's "intestinal" goop into our beer.

As Palmer and Jamil have said it is a RARE occurance these days that yeast actually dies anymore, let alone actually autolyses. It just goes dormant when the job is done and waits for the next round of sugar (much like when we pitch on top of the old yeast cake- which even some commercial brewers do for multiple generations.) The cells rarely rupture and die off.

It's not like 30 years ago (when most of those opinions that you espouse about autolysis originated from) when our hobby was still illegal, and there wasn't a lot of FRESH yeast available to us. The yeast used in hobby brewing was usually in cake form, which came from Germany and England in hot cargo ships and may have sat on a store shelf for a long time....or the brewer just used bread yeast.

Palmer even said this in the broadcast I quote from above-

So the whole health and vitality of yeast was different back then compared to now. Back then it made sense. You had weaker yeast that had finished fermentation that were more susceptible to autolysis and breaking down. Now that is not the case. The bar of homebrewing has risen to where we are able to make beer that has the same robustness as professional beer. We've gotten our techniques and understanding of what makes a good fermentation up to that level, so you don't need to transfer the beer off the yeast to avoid autolysis like we used to recommend.

Yeast in the 21st century is much healthier to begin with, and is less prone to have issues like their cells autolysing....just like our own health tends to be better these days.

Many of us leave our beers a MINIMUM of 1 month before racking or bottling, folks have left their beers in primary for a year or more with no issues. This is not something these days that most brewers (except noobs just stumbling onto Palmer's free book,) worry about.
 
And I've actually going to get oldschool and boil all the stubby bottles like they were canning jars a few days before (after re-oxycleaning the bottles) then do normal sanitization. I just want to make sure there's no chance of anything being in those bottles.

That's actually a really good idea for anything you plan to age for extended periods of time. I guess you could even pasteurize once carbonation is done if you felt so inclined as to do so. I'm not sure how well that would work with beer. I've only pasteurized cider, and from what I can tell it doesn't change carbonation or flavor.
 
People have left their beers in primary for a year with no "autolysis issues;" that whole rack the beer off the yeast hysteria has been pretty munch debunked... (except noobs just stumbling onto Palmer's free book,) worry about.

Read it thanks.
 
I rinse my bottles after I've poured the beer out. When it comes time to bottle, I clean them with one-step. After they are cleaned, I throw em in the dishwasher. My theory is this is good enough to kill anything left behind. In addition, it is a convenient way to let them dry while I'm racking to a bottling bucket.

As for a spigot, I don't have one on any of my buckets. Everything is taken from the siphon.
 
I hope sanitation is not the issue, I am very extreme when it comes to this. Racking cane, hoses, buckets and the sort are washed and moved to the dishwasher to further disinfect them.

Wait, so you don't actually use sanitizer (Starsan and Iodophor are two of the best)? Washing + dishwasher probably isn't the most reliable sanitation method, and the dishwasher (with any residual detergent/rinse aid) can introduce problems of its own.

Try skipping the dishwasher and buy some Starsan. Mix it up properly, dunk/spray everything, don't rinse, leave everything wet with starsan, don't fear the foam.
 
Nike_Eayrs said:
I rinse my bottles after I've poured the beer out. When it comes time to bottle, I clean them with one-step. After they are cleaned, I throw em in the dishwasher. My theory is this is good enough to kill anything left behind. In addition, it is a convenient way to let them dry while I'm racking to a bottling bucket.

As for a spigot, I don't have one on any of my buckets. Everything is taken from the siphon.

Does your dishwasher have a 'sanitize' mode? If not, your bottles may not be getting properly sanitized. And what are you using to sanitize your bottling bucket, racking cane, tubing, etc?
 
Does your dishwasher have a 'sanitize' mode? If not, your bottles may not be getting properly sanitized. And what are you using to sanitize your bottling bucket, racking cane, tubing, etc?

Agreed. If the tubing isn't melting, the bottles aren't sanitized.
 
Well then, maybe the dishwasher is the issue? I rinse everything in one step, and then it goes into the dishwasher.
 
There are lots of threads debating if one step is a sanitizer or a cleaner... apparently it can sanitize, but they can't legally advertise is as such. Or something. Either way, if you let it dry it's probably less effective, and most dishwashers can't really sanitize. And that would only work for glass, since the dishwasher sanitizes with heat soft plastics would melt.

I really recommend Star San. Rinse the bottles a few times with hot water immediately after drinking to get the crap out, dunk them in star san right before filling. That's all the cleaning/sanitizing you need for the bottles. That works for almost everything else as well: bottling bucket, tubing, siphon, etc. If you get to it immediately, a good rinse is all you need to clean it, then dunk it in star san before you use it the next time to sanitize it.

Like I said, never rinse the star san, and use it while wet. Save the one step for soaking kegs, carboys, etc. And when it runs out, just buy some oxiclean free (or PBW if you're feeling fancy).
 
On the getting bottles ready here is what I do:
1-rince after drinking put in drainer upside down to dry
2-wait till I have 12 bottles and put them in a 5 gallon bucket w/OxyClean and leave them there till I have another 12 bottles.
3-remove from OxyClean and they are label free, rinse and again put in drainer to dry. Then store in a close plastic container.
4-on bottleing day soak in Star San and store on the bottom rack of dishwasher which has been sprayed w/StarSan.
5-fill, cap and put on new labels.
 
On the getting bottles ready here is what I do:
1-rince after drinking put in drainer upside down to dry
2-wait till I have 12 bottles and put them in a 5 gallon bucket w/OxyClean and leave them there till I have another 12 bottles.
3-remove from OxyClean and they are label free, rinse and again put in drainer to dry. Then store in a close plastic container.
4-on bottleing day soak in Star San and store on the bottom rack of dishwasher which has been sprayed w/StarSan.
5-fill, cap and put on new labels.

I do pretty much the same thing, but I add a second soak in Oxiclean after de-labeling. Just in case any glue residue from the labels stays behind in the bottles after the first soak.

These days I don't have to de-label anymore. I have probably 500+ (either full or empty) that are de-labeled.
 

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