Pliny the Younger clone

SSBrew - 728
Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
U

user 22118

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2008
Messages
2,023
Reaction score
13
Ok, so here I am talking with some people and after brewing my Pliny the Middle Child, I want to make Pliny the Younger. It is one of those things that I really liked and figure that I might as well get the consensus here from other people.

First thing that I really want to get out there is that if you have tried it then you know what it tastes like and realize that it isn't bitter really. I am thinking that it will be and Imperial Imperial IPA (as I stated in another post for Pliny the Bastid). However, I am not aiming for 300 IBU like many others are aiming for. I guess, that I am really going for an IPA hop style, but then Dry Hop the SH*T out of it to try and acheive the aromatic quality that is found in the Younger.

Lastly before the recipe is that it is so light in color (between 5-7 SRM I think) I almost can't figure out how to get there and that is part of the assistance I am looking for.

Pliny the Younger Clone

OG 1.115 / FG 1.030 / IBU 61 / SRM 7 / ALCOHOL 12%

11 gallon batch
13 gallon boil

40 lbs American Two Row
5 lbs Rye
3 lbs Victory
2 lbs Corn Sugar

2oz Chinook @ 60 min
2oz Centennial @ 60 min
2oz Cascade @ 10 min *Edit - Deleting this addition*
2oz Cascade @ 5 min
1oz Simcoe @ 0 min *Edit - add this addition*

4oz Centennial @ DH for 9 days
4oz Cascade @ DH for 9 days
2oz Columbus @ DH for 9 days
1oz Simcoe @ DH for 9 days *Edit - add this addition*

US-05 Yeast or some 002 that I have

Mash around 148* for 90 minutes, boil 60 minutes and ferment at 65* for a week and then at 75* for three more weeks prior to starting the dry hopping.

This should then be able to be racked, chilled and then aged for a month prior to tapping.

I am not sure if the Columbus belongs there or not. I could back off of the base malt and up the sugar, or just back off of the base malt.

Because I like thinking about this stuff I figure it is going to cost about $50 for the hops, and another $75 for the grain, making this about $1.60 a pint. Not too shabby when you think that the Younger is running around $5 at the pub in Feb. and $36 for a half gallon. So I am sitting around 20% retail price.

Get my fix in the summer months.

Now what are the thoughts of those out there? Especially those who have had it?
 
I haven't tried it PtY just PtE, but I think if you are looking to get a lot of hop aroma and flavor you should focus on your hop boil schedule.
EG: Get the majority of your IBUs with a decent addition at FWH, and then throw in a huge hop addition at 15 minutes and also flameout. Adjust your bittering hops down until you get to your desired IBU and finishing it off with a generous dryhop would probably give the kind of effect you'll get out of PtY.
You are also probably going to want to drop the Rye and Victory as both PtE and PtY have very little malt flavor going on. Maybe a little bit of crystal 10, but again these beers are practically solely focused on hops with as little malt flavor as possible.
You might want to drop the cascade and opt for something stronger like Simcoe.

I am contemplating a similar brew after having Lagunitas Hop Stoopid, which has low perceivable bitterness, almost no malt character, but a huge wonderful hop aroma / flavor that probably comes from 85%+ of the hops (in this specific case extract) going in near the end of the boil.

Additionally, check out Mike McDoles IIPA recipe, its a tweaked PtE clone that is more like PtY, and is improved over PtE significantly IMO.
 
Thanks for that input, many good points were mentioned. Since the Elder and Younger are such different beasts, you have to look at them differently. Different color, different malt profile and different hopping style.

With this being so large in finishing gravity and malt profile, I think that adding the crystal would make it a little bit too sweet and caramel like. The malty I like, sweet not so much. I am debating the Crystal addition still, but might be open to it.

I like McDoles process, but I think that the recipe can go a little bit differently. Especially the total IBU's in the beer.
 
Google The Mad Fermentationist Pliny clone, he's got a great website and did a clone of this beer. Email him and ask questions, he's a really nice helpful guy.
 
I might email him to see what he thinks about it.

I have read other peoples recipes out on the good old interweb and did a bunch of research. That Mad Fermentationist recipe still has too much hop bitterness for what I think is in that beer.

After seeing all of the variety of recipes out there, I have come to the conclusion that the grain seems to be pale malt, carapils, crystal and sugar. On that note, I don't know what they are basing the recipe off. When having the Elder next to the Younger they are different in color first off and in smell next. I think that the other recipes are trying to just clone the Elder and then make it really high alcohol and call it the Younger.

I think that it could rework to be:

40lbs Pale Malt
2lbs Victory
1lb Crystal 20L
3lbs Corn Sugar

What about the hopping Schedule?
 
Well from what I've heard the malt selection for PtY is the same as PtE, there is just more so the SRM will be higher. Having never had PtY much less a side by side w/PtE I couldn't say.
I've heard comments from Vinnie that PtY is much more bitter than PtE, and many people say 300+ IBU is what it is.
You really HAVE to use simcoe and amarillo. There is no substituting for simcoe, its responsible for that wonderful nose found on PtE.
 
I just sent an email over and will come back with any answer I get.
 
Check out thebrewingnetwork.com podcasts. THere are about 3 episodes of the Sunday Show where Vinnie is the guest. You can fast-forward past the jibberish and get some really great info from the Vinnie interview. I think he does a whole episode devoted to hopping, if I recall. A lot of valuable information there.
 
deffinetly check that podcast you will get great info. On that podcast he says that they use hop extract on the younger due to the huge wort loss from using that many hops in the boil kettle.
 
I know about the extract and there in lies part of the problem. They are getting the pure aroma, where I will be attempting to actually hop this bad boy. I think though that the recipe had to be brewed with real hops the first time, so there is a glimmer of hope.
 
Some additional notes after my first attempt at cloning the beer a few years ago. I emailed him awhile back and he hedged and said it was too complex and sent me the Elder recipe. Over time though I've pieced most of it together from various interviews, so here is the dirt:

My most recent IPA had an aroma nearly spot on with PtY (got to have them head-to head), but it was more PtE in terms of alcohol strength. It used Amarillo and Simcoe at the end of the boil (5 oz) and two 3 oz additions of dry hops (1 oz each Simcoe, Amarillo, Columbus).

For malt I would go with ~85% Pale malt, 5% Carapils, and 10% corn sugar (by extract). Vinnie has said that he doesn't use colored crystal malts in it like he does in PtE. Aim for 1.100, but remember to calculate for the losses to hops (also remember to aim for low eff due to the high gravity). I would mash in the low 150s to ensure complete attenuation.

I would add enough gypsum to get to ~150-200 ppm sulfate, that will help to accentuate the hop bitterness. If you have a lot of bicarb in your water you might also want to cut it with distilled since this is such a pale beer.

I would bitter with hop extract (or columbus). I have yet to try extract but some people have claimed that NB's Hop Shot ( http://www.northernbrewer.com/default/hopshot.html ) is the same stuff Vinnie uses just repackaged. NB suggests 11 ml for 100 IBUs on a 1.100 beer. I would probably
go for 15 ml at 60 min since it is supposed to be a smoother bitterness than normal hops.

Here is the rest of my boil schedule after bittering, seemed to work well. The flameout hops were added over a couple minutes post boil as the wort was chilling.
1.00 oz. Columbus (Pellet 11.00% AA) @ 45 min.
1.00 oz. Simcoe (Pellet 12.40% AA) @ 30 min.
3.00 oz. Amarillo (Pellet 8.60% AA) @ 0 min.
2.00 oz. Simcoe (Pellet 12.40% AA) @ 0 min.

Ferment with American Ale (Vinnie uses WLP001). Vinnie suggests not pitching too many cells since they can uptake bitterness. Keep the fermentation cool, but let it get close to 70 at the end of fermentation to ensure complete attenuation.

Actual PtY: Dry Hop Schedule (per Vinnie). I would do 1.5-2 oz total for each addition, whole hops only. He rouses with CO2 to keep them in suspension (probably not feasible at home unless you have a conical). I normally just put them in a stocking and weight it down with glass marbles to keep them submerged and make taking them out easier.
DH 1 Simcoe, Amarillo, Centennial for one week and remove
DH 2 Amarillo, Centennial for one week and remove
DH 3 Simcoe for one week and remove
DH 4 Simcoe, Amarillo Dry Hop in Keg

Vinnie has stressed keeping yeast to a minimum while dry hopping, so you might want to crash cool and fine with gelatin before the first round. I would dry hop the first three rounds at room temp (another Vinnie recommendation). Then I would chill and force carb right after the keg hops are added.

Make sure to keep oxidation to a minimum, double flush everything the beer touches post fermentation with CO2.

I'm certainly planning on doing this myself at some point, but I'm not sure having a really hoppy best when fresh 11% ABV IPA on tap is the best idea in the world for my health...
 
Guess I'm not making this in my 5 gal mash tun cooler. :) Hell, would this even work in a 10 gal MLT?
 
Alls I know is I had this last month (the real thing, not a clone) during it's five hour window of availability, and was floored. Best beer ever, and if I can make one 80% as good I'll be thrilled.
 
Oldsock said:
Some additional notes after my first attempt at cloning the beer a few years ago. I emailed him awhile back and he hedged and said it was too complex and sent me the Elder recipe. Over time though I've pieced most of it together from various interviews, so here is the dirt:

My most recent IPA had an aroma nearly spot on with PtY (got to have them head-to head), but it was more PtE in terms of alcohol strength. It used Amarillo and Simcoe at the end of the boil (5 oz) and two 3 oz additions of dry hops (1 oz each Simcoe, Amarillo, Columbus).

For malt I would go with ~85% Pale malt, 5% Carapils, and 10% corn sugar (by extract). Vinnie has said that he doesn't use colored crystal malts in it like he does in PtE. Aim for 1.100, but remember to calculate for the losses to hops (also remember to aim for low eff due to the high gravity). I would mash in the low 150s to ensure complete attenuation.

I would add enough gypsum to get to ~150-200 ppm sulfate, that will help to accentuate the hop bitterness. If you have a lot of bicarb in your water you might also want to cut it with distilled since this is such a pale beer.

I would bitter with hop extract (or columbus). I have yet to try extract but some people have claimed that NB's Hop Shot ( http://www.northernbrewer.com/default/hopshot.html ) is the same stuff Vinnie uses just repackaged. NB suggests 11 ml for 100 IBUs on a 1.100 beer. I would probably
go for 15 ml at 60 min since it is supposed to be a smoother bitterness than normal hops.

Here is the rest of my boil schedule after bittering, seemed to work well. The flameout hops were added over a couple minutes post boil as the wort was chilling.
1.00 oz. Columbus (Pellet 11.00% AA) @ 45 min.
1.00 oz. Simcoe (Pellet 12.40% AA) @ 30 min.
3.00 oz. Amarillo (Pellet 8.60% AA) @ 0 min.
2.00 oz. Simcoe (Pellet 12.40% AA) @ 0 min.

Ferment with American Ale (Vinnie uses WLP001). Vinnie suggests not pitching too many cells since they can uptake bitterness. Keep the fermentation cool, but let it get close to 70 at the end of fermentation to ensure complete attenuation.

Actual PtY: Dry Hop Schedule (per Vinnie). I would do 1.5-2 oz total for each addition, whole hops only. He rouses with CO2 to keep them in suspension (probably not feasible at home unless you have a conical). I normally just put them in a stocking and weight it down with glass marbles to keep them submerged and make taking them out easier.
DH 1 Simcoe, Amarillo, Centennial for one week and remove
DH 2 Amarillo, Centennial for one week and remove
DH 3 Simcoe for one week and remove
DH 4 Simcoe, Amarillo Dry Hop in Keg

Vinnie has stressed keeping yeast to a minimum while dry hopping, so you might want to crash cool and fine with gelatin before the first round. I would dry hop the first three rounds at room temp (another Vinnie recommendation). Then I would chill and force carb right after the keg hops are added.

Make sure to keep oxidation to a minimum, double flush everything the beer touches post fermentation with CO2.

I'm certainly planning on doing this myself at some point, but I'm not sure having a really hoppy best when fresh 11% ABV IPA on tap is the best idea in the world for my health...
Click to expand...

Yea I saw this on your site yesterday (which is a great site btw) and am going to take a whack at it.

You mention using a grain called Golden Promise, which I'm assuming you added in place of Crystal to add a little sweetness?

Also you started the ferment at 75, then slowly dropped to 58 overnight, and held it 58 for the remainder of ferment? 58 seems low but if you were successful I'd certainly try it.

Lastly, your advice to compensate for volume loss caused by hops makes sense. I'm just curious what your estimate for this loss was. Looks like it might be 0.8 gallons.

Thanks,
Bryan
 
Golden Promise is just a pale basemalt, I had a sack of it and just used it to augment the 10 lbs of American pale malt (if I was brewing it again I would just add more pale).

US-05 can ferment really low, even lower than 58 (with the heat of the fermentation it was probably in the low/mid 60s). Ideally though pitching in the mid-60s and holding it there is probably the best bet creeping up towards the end. Back then I didn't have temp control, so my ferments were a bit more eratic than they could/should have been.

~1 gallon sounds about right if you are using whole hops. If you want to hit PTY gravity (~1.100), which I failed to do, I would suggest adding considerably more basemalt. I had good luck doing an IPA off the first runnings of a parti-gyle a few years back.
 
Oldsock said:
Golden Promise is just a pale basemalt, I had a sack of it and just used it to augment the 10 lbs of American pale malt (if I was brewing it again I would just add more pale).

US-05 can ferment really low, even lower than 58 (with the heat of the fermentation it was probably in the low/mid 60s). Ideally though pitching in the mid-60s and holding it there is probably the best bet creeping up towards the end. Back then I didn't have temp control, so my ferments were a bit more eratic than they could/should have been.

~1 gallon sounds about right if you are using whole hops. If you want to hit PTY gravity (~1.100), which I failed to do, I would suggest adding considerably more basemalt. I had good luck doing an IPA off the first runnings of a parti-gyle a few years back.
Click to expand...

Sweet, thanks. I am also doing this Parti-gyle. I'm thinking of starting with a grain bill that would make a 1.090 @ 60% efficiency. The first runnings would hopefully be around 1.110, and the second would be about 1.060 for a nice APA.

The other part of your blog that confuses me is that you list a hop schedule (boil and dry), and then in your notes from Vinny-research, you list a different hop schedule. Which of the two do you reccomend?
 
bmbigda said:
Sweet, thanks. I am also doing this Parti-gyle. I'm thinking of starting with a grain bill that would make a 1.090 @ 60% efficiency. The first runnings would hopefully be around 1.110, and the second would be about 1.060 for a nice APA.

The other part of your blog that confuses me is that you list a hop schedule (boil and dry), and then in your notes from Vinny-research, you list a different hop schedule. Which of the two do you reccomend?
Click to expand...

Cool, I did a black IPA off mine by adding some dark malts after the first runnings. Sounds like a good plan.

I posted those additional notes recently (actually after writing them up for this thread) they are probably more accurate in terms of cloning PtY, but at at this point they are untested. When I brewed the beer I didn't have as much information as I do now.

Every time this thread pops up I think about brewing it, but it will probably have to wait for the fall. I'll be very interested to hear how your batch goes and how it turns out.
 
Oldsock said:
Cool, I did a black IPA off mine by adding some dark malts after the first runnings. Sounds like a good plan.

I posted those additional notes recently (actually after writing them up for this thread) they are probably more accurate in terms of cloning PtY, but at at this point they are untested. When I brewed the beer I didn't have as much information as I do now.

Every time this thread pops up I think about brewing it, but it will probably have to wait for the fall. I'll be very interested to hear how your batch goes and how it turns out.
Click to expand...

Yea man - I appreciate all the back-work you've done piecing together info on this beer. I'll definitely be putting my results on here.

What do you think about making a hop tea instead of using hop-extract?
 
bmbigda said:
Yea man - I appreciate all the back-work you've done piecing together info on this beer. I'll definitely be putting my results on here.

What do you think about making a hop tea instead of using hop-extract?
Click to expand...

And add the hop tea near the start of the boil? I have no idea how much bitterness it would add. I had fine results on my last IPA using Columbus to bitter, that's what I would do if you don't want to order the extract since that is what Vinnie suggests in his PtE clone.
 

Similar threads

RyPA
Hopping a NEIPA with Citra/Mosaic/Nectaron
Replies
39
Views
3K
gaviga
G
jturman35
Red IPA recipe
Replies
16
Views
2K
Indian_villager
I
R
Pliny the Elder to an APA
Replies
14
Views
1K
redrocker652002
R
3 Dawg Night
Pliny the Elder American Pale Ale
Replies
14
Views
2K
redrocker652002
R
R
Italian Pils
Replies
16
Views
967
Ulisses4677
Ulisses4677
Yakima 300

Latest posts

Back
Top