Anyone heard of using induction heating for brewing?

Saw this article in the NY Times and was wondering if anyone has experience with using that method for brewing, and if so, what was used and how big of a system you've seen.

Seems like it might be an interesting way to brew. From what the article said it sounds like the health dept. requirements might be laxer for this type of heating (no need for venting, etc) so it could be especially interesting for small commercial breweries.

I haven't used one for brewing but used them while overseas in Japan. They are incredible for cooking. Heated super fast, pretty sweet to deal with. I don't know about the BTU's and how powerful of one you would need to boil on.

I have been wondering if an induction "burner" would be good for brewing ever since I saw an induction range in Sears.

Induction elements are pretty efficient at converting electrical energy into heat, since it's actually causing the metal of the pan itself to heat up. There's not much loss as far as radiated heat is concerned, etc. There is one big problem though:

Copper bottomed pans, aluminium pans and most stainless steel pans are generally unsuitable for induction cooking. You have to have an expensive tri-clad stainless pot that has an inner layer of iron, otherwise the induction effect doesn't work well enough.

While induction heating is more efficient than a similar electric stovetop element, it is not measurably more efficient than an immersed heating element. Immersed elements basically have all the benefits of induction cooking, and none of the limitations as far as cookware is concerned.

I want someone to create an induction RIMS system out of a length of SS tubing. I was thinking about it for a while and then removed RIMS from my system design. It would be very cool in my opinion.

I saw one in action at my boss's house. He brought a pot of water to a rolling boil in a minute. My first thought was "Whoa that'd be awesome for homebrewing..."

The Health Department shouldn't be regulating a fire/building code. That being said, if it is installed and designed to be used permanently, it does technically fall under exhaust code and they can require a Class 2 hood if they want to. If you are producing grease laden air then they can require a Class 1 with fire suppression.

Expensive pans are not required, but you are stuck with stainless, carbon steel and cast iron. The baser the metal the better and 18/8, 18/10 will not work properly. In the case if a triclad pan, the core is aluminum not iron and it is the 18/0 outer layer that works on the burner. However, I have seen top of the line induction ready Vollrath Tribute pans not work on Wolf residential ranges. Word on the street is that many manufacturers dial their ranges to only work properly with their pans, so you have to watch out for that.
You also lose efficiency if the diameter of your pan is much bigger than the burner.

And... the cost of a hotplate that would provide the necessary heat is prohibitive for a homebrewer. You would need a 3500W, 208-240v unit and they can run a couple thousand dollars for a good one from Vollrath or Cooktek.

But they sure are fun. Especially when doing a demo and you remove the pan of boiling water and set your hand on the burner. Freaks people out.

northernlad said:

The Health Department shouldn't be regulating a fire/building code. That being said, if it is installed and designed to be used permanently, it does technically fall under exhaust code and they can require a Class 2 hood if they want to. If you are producing grease laden air then they can require a Class 1 with fire suppression.

Expensive pans are not required, but you are stuck with stainless, carbon steel and cast iron. The baser the metal the better and 18/8, 18/10 will not work properly. In the case if a triclad pan, the core is aluminum not iron and it is the 18/0 outer layer that works on the burner. However, I have seen top of the line induction ready Vollrath Tribute pans not work on Wolf residential ranges. Word on the street is that many manufacturers dial their ranges to only work properly with their pans, so you have to watch out for that.
You also lose efficiency if the diameter of your pan is much bigger than the burner.

And... the cost of a hotplate that would provide the necessary heat is prohibitive for a homebrewer. You would need a 3500W, 208-240v unit and they can run a couple thousand dollars for a good one from Vollrath or Cooktek.

But they sure are fun. Especially when doing a demo and you remove the pan of boiling water and set your hand on the burner. Freaks people out.

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Thanks, I guess I meant the fire dept. or whatever. I've been learning about who codes what a bit, but was not sure regarding hoods and the like. Interesting to know, and a new set of codes for me to look up. I guess this would be expensive for a homebrewer, but maybe costs will continue to come down. I guess it is also not really commercially feasible since I am guessing the price goes up with the surface area required to be heated.

MacBruver, when you say immersed, do you mean electrical heat sticks, or jacketed stainless or?

Update has an 1800W 120V unit that we sell for less than $300. I gave it a run with my 20qt stock pot with 4 gallons of water. It performed as well as my glass top range and brought it to a vigorous boil with the lid on but only a mild boil with the lid off. It would be pretty good for heating sparge water I guess, but only really for those of us still doing 5 gal batches.
It is amazing technology and super efficient, but still pricey.

commonlaw said:

MacBruver, when you say immersed, do you mean electrical heat sticks, or jacketed stainless or?

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Heat sticks, or elements mounted directly in kettle.

I was wondering if they might be useful in an all-grain mash to raise the temperature of the mash tun. Would induction heat be better than direct-heating a mash tun in terms of reducing the potential for scorching?

THey should be better at preventing scorching as the heat is even over the base of the pot.
All of the hotplates I have seen can hold a particular temperature and I think most of them start at about 140 degrees. THis would probably work very well for maintaining mash temps. Again, for 5 gallon batches or smaller with a 120V unit.

Imagine if someone would produce a MLT or kettle that had the induction material not only on the bottom but over all the surface area. You could have one super efficient heating vessel.

I think I'm the only one here who uses induction cookers for brewing and I love it! A couple of things though. We bought our first unit for cooking and and paid ~$250 for a 1500 W unit. We did spend quite a bit of time shopping for pots. We'd go to a cooking store and grab a refridgerator magnet so we could check the pots. I love cooking on it. I like to use them for cooking outside in the summer to avoid heating up the house - especially for things like cooking pasta or corn on the cob - or lobster. Then we TOTALLY lucked into two more units. They were on an end of aisle clearance at Target for $35!!!! They had two units and they both went into our cart. Score!!!!

I cannot do my wort boil with these. Not enough power. However they do work really well for a direct fired MLT and a HLT. I put several layers of aluminized bubble wrap around my pots and they hold temps extremely well. I do a lot of step mashes because it is so easy for me. I have never scorched my wort. I can raise the temp. of a typical sized mash at about 1*F per minute.

I boil my wort outside on a propane burner

Oh yeah, typically 5 gal batches, but I do mash the occassional 10 gal batch on it. My 10 gal of IPA was pushing the weight limit and I had to rig up some extra support to take some weight off of the unit.

pjj2ba said:

I think I'm the only one here who uses induction cookers for brewing and I love it! A couple of things though. We bought our first unit for cooking and and paid ~$250 for a 1500 W unit. We did spend quite a bit of time shopping for pots. We'd go to a cooking store and grab a refridgerator magnet so we could check the pots. I love cooking on it. I like to use them for cooking outside in the summer to avoid heating up the house - especially for things like cooking pasta or corn on the cob - or lobster. Then we TOTALLY lucked into two more units. They were on an end of aisle clearance at Target for $35!!!! They had two units and they both went into our cart. Score!!!!

I cannot do my wort boil with these. Not enough power. However they do work really well for a direct fired MLT and a HLT. I put several layers of aluminized bubble wrap around my pots and they hold temps extremely well. I do a lot of step mashes because it is so easy for me. I have never scorched my wort. I can raise the temp. of a typical sized mash at about 1*F per minute.

I boil my wort outside on a propane burner

Oh yeah, typically 5 gal batches, but I do mash the occassional 10 gal batch on it. My 10 gal of IPA was pushing the weight limit and I had to rig up some extra support to take some weight off of the unit.

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That's great information. What are you using for a mash tun (i.e., brand and size)? Does anyone know if the Blichmanns are usable with induction burners?

Blichmans are straight up SS pots, I dont think they are ideal as stated previously a sandwiched bottom is best.

jpc said:

That's great information. What are you using for a mash tun (i.e., brand and size)? Does anyone know if the Blichmanns are usable with induction burners?

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I actually tracked down my receipt! I love my mash tun. Purchased 8/06. I had placed an order for a similar item from Instawares (cheaper) but after several months of "it will ship in two weeks" I canceled the order and went with a place, I recall in Texas - their website says undergoing renovations http://www.foodservicenow.com/

1 x Vollrath Stock Pot, 38qt., s/s, Intrigue 47724 (47724) = $121.28

My experience is that most SS pots are not magnetic. I'd call Blinchman and ask. If they are not sure, ask them to test with a magnet. That is the best test.

Blichmans are DEFINITELY not magnetic

I'd considered Induction since I'm a basement brewer. I found it far easier and cheaper to mount water heater elements in the pot. You just can't beat the efficiency and there really is no wort scorching. Obviously you have to cut holes and run your own cabling.

One thing I should mention, if you have a Tuesday Morning, you can usually find cheap Induction Stovetops and Cookware.

willynilly said:

Blichmans are straight up SS pots, I dont think they are ideal as stated previously a sandwiched bottom is best.

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Sandwich bottom is irrelevant. THe only benefit is the even heat distribution provided by the aluminum which is not magnetic. Low grade Stainless, carbon steel, or Cast Iron are the best.

Well, Blichmans are non magnetic, so will they work well then?

The pan must be magnetic.

I had researched this pretty heavily before deciding to go all electric/immersed element.

I read a thread that one of the guys that works at Cooktek (the better/best brand of cooktop) uses his 1800W 120V to brew 5 gals. You may try calling them and asking. I wanted to brew 15 gal, so I gave up. After 1800 W, it goes up to 240V. They then go up to 3500W, which are pricey but would probably handle boiling wort.

I also remember reading somewhere that the Morebeer kettles are magnetizable and would work with an induction element. Polarwear makes some really nice tri-ply stock pots (in addition to their kettles), but they don't have fittings, you have to make the kettle.

However, if Morebeer and Cooktek teamed up and marketed one of these with a 20 gal kettle, it would be a winner (they just have to make the heat levels more adjustable)... for the deep pocketed, that is.

http://www.cooktek.com/product_info.php?c=3&s=25&p=106

Check out the video clip to see how big this thing is.

And speaking of adjustable, that's what I'd make sure to do if I were buying one. Make sure you get one with "100 heat levels" or whatever. One that has 12 heat levels would be hard to hit a temp. Even the 100 level ones have steps in 5 degree increments when you get up to boiling level. That's almost not good enough.

And another thing, some of these have an 'automatic pot size detector. I would just check things out with the size of your kettle and whether it's going to trip the computer up and not work right. Most of these can accommodate 12-14" pots. Not big enough for me.

The one I was going to buy (because of features and price) was a Vollrath. I'd check those out. It has timers (sweet! perfect for brewing) so people can cook sous vide, etc. I would make sure that if you wanted to use the timers some have that you make sure they go long enough (which is the concept behind Sous Vide, low heat/long hours in a vacuum seal). The better higher end of the Cookteks have this, but not the lower end (same element probably, different computer). The Vollrath did and was the same price as the lower end Cooktek.

Ebay is your friend, but I would be wary of the real cheappies out there.

Cheers.

Good Stuff Sanke and on the money.
Cooktek is the top of the line and Vollrath a close secomd.
THe Stock pot range you linked will handle up to a 22" pot, is 7-8000 watts and 3 phase. When I get to work I'll ballpark the price. I don't think Vollrath has one in this league.
The other thing to think about, especially with any 120v unit, is the weight capacity.
THe nice thing about them is, though they look like your normal glass top, your pot does not have to be in contact with the burner to work properly. In case you have a pot that is "well used".

Oh, so you must be 'the guy' I mentioned. Glad you're here. There are virtually no threads on the net about this, so I'm glad to have the official word from a company rep. Thanks.

On weight capacity, the induction ranges will operate thru marble/corian/etc. countertops - meaning with the cooktop underneath.

I have no idea if there is a drop in efficiency if you do so- that would be the question for you. I can imagine a neat brew rig that has 2 X 3500W (for the HLT and BK) and 1 X 2000W (for the MLT) induction elements mounted below an inexpensive slab of remnant/leftover kitchen countertop on a steel table. I was going to do it this way before I decided on my current setup.

That table would also double as a kick a$$ cooking range and I would lurrrrve to have one like that.

EDIT: I just happen to be a mad man when it comes to making things 'dual use'. It's almost like OCD with me.

I don't work for Cooktek, but I do sell Restaurant Equipment.
For comparison, the MCD-3500 at 3500 watts is equivalent to 31,000 BTU, the average output of a commercial gas range. They claim it will bring a gallon of room temp water to a boil in 5.6 minutes.
MSP-7000 is 208-240V, 3ph, 7000w (62,000BTU)~$2600. 2.8 minutes to boil a gallon of water. 5 gallons in less than 15 minutes.

The one problem with the preset holding temp is they are designed for restaurant temps so 85* for chocolate, 145* for hot holding, 165* for reheating food, etc.

I see a $10,000 optional upgrade for the B3 1100 in the future. Any takers?

Wonder if you could bypass the stock pot's temp sensor in favor of a LOVE controller or something. Giggidy, giggidy...

Still, I think an immersed LD element has a better chance of hitting temps faster than an induction element. My opinion, not tested.