corn & rice brewers

Interested in what the corn & rice brewers are doing. I made a Bud clone for a guy at work ( he gave me an empty keg for my keggle). It actually tasted good and he said it was better than Bud. I got Biermuncher's Cream of Three Crops on the agenda right now. Would like to know what the addition of corn and/or rice brings to the beer ---- in terms of taste, fermentability, alcoholic content, etc. Am doing AG. Also flaked rice vs. minute rice.

corn and rice bring economy to the batch. Thats why BMC use them. Most home brewers use more flavorful grains that contribute a more dominant flavor. Also I beleive that rice needs to be gelentenized before you can mash it. not sure on this though. Why not teach your friend how good flavorful beer is. If it's the strong flavor profile or bitterness that he doesn't like, those can be adjusted pretty easily by altering the grain bill or hop schedule and still maintain a decent flavor. Even if it falls outside style guidelines.

BierMunchers "cream of 3 crops" is really good. I just did a version of that with some hops at 10 minutes(for my tastes). Also Skotrat's
"Genesee my Butt"


Batch Size (Gal): 5.50 Wort Size (Gal): 5.50
Total Grain (Lbs): 10.65
Anticipated OG: 1.051 Plato: 12.7
Anticipated SRM: 4.4
Anticipated IBU: 18.9
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 70 Minutes

Formulas Used
-------------

Brewhouse Efficiency and Predicted Gravity based on Method #1, Potential Used.
Final Gravity Calculation Based on Points.
Hard Value of Sucrose applied. Value for recipe: 46.2100 ppppg
% Yield Type used in Gravity Prediction: Fine Grind Dry Basis.

Color Formula Used: Morey
Hop IBU Formula Used: Daniels


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
56.7 6.03 lbs. Lager Malt(6-row) Canada 1.034 1
20.0 2.13 lbs. Flaked Corn (Maize) America 1.040 1
10.0 1.06 lbs. Vienna Malt America 1.035 4
6.7 0.71 lbs. Munich Malt(light) America 1.033 10
6.7 0.71 lbs. Crystal 10L America 1.035 10

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
1.42 oz. Liberty Whole 3.40 15.7 60 min.
1.42 oz. Liberty Whole 3.40 3.3 5 min.


Yeast
-----

EasYeast St. Louis Lager


Mash Schedule
-------------

Mash Type: Single Step

Grain Lbs: 10.65
Water Qts: 15.97 - Before Additional Infusions
Water Gal: 3.99 - Before Additional Infusions

Qts Water Per Lbs Grain: 1.50 - Before Additional Infusions

Saccharification Rest Temp : 152 Time: 90
Mash-out Rest Temp : 168 Time: 170
Sparge Temp : 170 Time: 70


Total Mash Volume Gal: 4.88 - Dough-In Infusion Only

beerthirty said:

corn and rice bring economy to the batch. Thats why BMC use them. Most home brewers use more flavorful grains that contribute a more dominant flavor. Also I beleive that rice needs to be gelentenized before you can mash it. not sure on this though. Why not teach your friend how good flavorful beer is. If it's the strong flavor profile or bitterness that he doesn't like, those can be adjusted pretty easily by altering the grain bill or hop schedule and still maintain a decent flavor. Even if it falls outside style guidelines.

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I've given him plenty of different home brews, but he prefers Bud. There are a lot of die hard Bud drinkers out there, I used to drink nothing but Bud. Now my taste has changed and it's very hard to get one down. Different people like different beer. I started brewing drier beers and now I can noticeably detect the sweetness in some beers and that bothers me. I love Bass Ale, had one last week (haven't been buying commercial beers in over a year unless out to a restaurant) and I detected a sweetness that I never noticed before. Try a different style beer that you used to drink and see if it still satisfies you or tasteds the same as you remember it.

joejaz said:

I've given him plenty of different home brews, but he prefers Bud. There are a lot of die hard Bud drinkers out there, I used to drink nothing but Bud. Now my taste has changed and it's very hard to get one down. Different people like different beer. I started brewing drier beers and now I can noticeably detect the sweetness in some beers and that bothers me. I love Bass Ale, had one last week (haven't been buying commercial beers in over a year unless out to a restaurant) and I detected a sweetness that I never noticed before. Try a different style beer that you used to drink and see if it still satisfies you or tasteds the same as you remember it.

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+1 on all this....

Good point about Bass and other commercial brews and your tastebuds. I've noticed a detectable banana ester taste to PBR in my neighborhood sportsbar, since I began homebrewing...and twice I've been at a bar/resteraunt and ordered something on tap and felt it was vinegary tasting (even though those around me, who aren't brewers didn't detect that at all.)

Revvy said:

+1 on all this....

Good point about Bass and other commercial brews and your tastebuds. I've noticed a detectable banana ester taste to PBR in my neighborhood sportsbar, since I began homebrewing...and twice I've been at a bar/resteraunt and ordered something on tap and felt it was vinegary tasting (even though those around me, who aren't brewers didn't detect that at all.)

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Maybe we are becoming to critical or analytical with our taste. I don't know if that is good or bad?

Teach him to brew. That let's you off the hook.

yes I have noticed my taste change away from the commercial beer also. Even as I drink new craft brews I think about what I would have changed in the recipe. If he likes bud then so be it more good beer for you. Back to your question, both can produce fermentable sugars, taste I think is negligible. I have never experimented with them, but if flaked rice is manufactured similar to rolled grains(sounds like it might) then the gelitinization has probably already been done. Corn can be mashed like other grains and iodine used to check starch conversion. If you manage to create a bud clone then you are a hell of a brewwer. I have heard they are difficult to copy. Good Luck.

beerthirty said:

yes I have noticed my taste change away from the commercial beer also. Even as I drink new craft brews I think about what I would have changed in the recipe. If he likes bud then so be it more good beer for you. Back to your question, both can produce fermentable sugars, taste I think is negligible. I have never experimented with them, but if flaked rice is manufactured similar to rolled grains(sounds like it might) then the gelitinization has probably already been done. Corn can be mashed like other grains and iodine used to check starch conversion. If you manage to create a bud clone then you are a hell of a brewwer. I have heard they are difficult to copy. Good Luck.

Click to expand...

I don't think you can actually duplicate anything out there. This was a recipe from my brew supply shop. I think a better description is "brewed in the style of . . .".

I have brewed with corn grits and flaked and am planning to use fresh corn to see how that goes. I think the flavor will be out of this world. Well almost. I plan on cutting it right off the husks and mashing it. I also have used real rice and minute rice and it is not that much more work. You need a separate pot for each due to boil times and stirring all the time. I do this while the mash water is heating to best utilize my time. I add grain to both to convert starches and then bring to a boil and cool to infusion temperatures. I add to the mash during the sacrification step. It's not that hard and you just have to be dedicated a bit to get everything together at the right time.

beerthirty said:

corn and rice bring economy to the batch. Thats why BMC use them.

Click to expand...

A common misconception. Forgivable, but still quite erroneous. Rice and corn suitable for brewing is just as expensive as malted barley. Check your homebrew shop prices! Rahr Six-Row Pale = $1.50/lb. Flaked Maize = $1.50/lb. Corn Grits = $1.49 (at my local grocery). Rice syrup solids = $4.99/lb.(!)

It's easy to look at the price on the package and infer that price=ingredients. It's wrong because it's easy. In the first place, BMC can purchase ingredients with such economy of scale that they can profit from a $12.99 24-pack that includes a free t-shirt. Micros really can't, not even when they're large. In the second, brands can command a higher price than simple economics deserve. Boston Beer is large enough to buy on a scale close to BMC, yet a 24-pack of Sam Adams Boston Ale still commands a "micro" price. Why? Because you'll pay it

Rice and corn lighten flavor and color. That's why they're used. When your market demands a mere alcohol vehicle, the less flavor, the better.

Moreover, use of grain adjuncts requires special brewing skills and specialist equipment. Remember that Light American Lagers use up to 50% unmalted adjunct. If you've ever mashed such a grist, you know the extra steps you must perform - and how difficult it is to successfully brew such a beer!

It's easy to dismiss BMC as crappy garbage unworthy of our attention as beer aficionados. It's easy to dismiss what you don't fully understand.

Cheers,

Bob

BobNQ3X said:

A common misconception. Forgivable, but still quite erroneous. Rice and corn suitable for brewing is just as expensive as malted barley. Check your homebrew shop prices! Rahr Six-Row Pale = $1.50/lb. Flaked Maize = $1.50/lb. Corn Grits = $1.49 (at my local grocery). Rice syrup solids = $4.99/lb.(!)

It's easy to look at the price on the package and infer that price=ingredients. It's wrong because it's easy. In the first place, BMC can purchase ingredients with such economy of scale that they can profit from a $12.99 24-pack that includes a free t-shirt. Micros really can't, not even when they're large. In the second, brands can command a higher price than simple economics deserve. Boston Beer is large enough to buy on a scale close to BMC, yet a 24-pack of Sam Adams Boston Ale still commands a "micro" price. Why? Because you'll pay it

Rice and corn lighten flavor and color. That's why they're used. When your market demands a mere alcohol vehicle, the less flavor, the better.

Moreover, use of grain adjuncts requires special brewing skills and specialist equipment. Remember that Light American Lagers use up to 50% unmalted adjunct. If you've ever mashed such a grist, you know the extra steps you must perform - and how difficult it is to successfully brew such a beer!

It's easy to dismiss BMC as crappy garbage unworthy of our attention as beer aficionados. It's easy to dismiss what you don't fully understand.

Cheers,

Bob

Click to expand...

+1 one this....I'm just finishing Maureen Ogle's book on the history of beer in America...When AH released Budweiser with it's corn and rice adjuncts in the 1860's it was the most expensive beer out there; a single bottle retailed for $1.00 (what would equal in today's Dollars for $17.00) this was quite difference when a schooner of beer usually cost a nickel.

The American populace ate it up!

It wasn't done to save money, it was done because heavy beers (both english style Ales and the heavier Bavarian malty beers) were not being drunk by American consumers any more. Beer initally was seen around the world as food (some even called it liquid bread), but since America, even in the 1800's was a prosperous nation compared to the rest of the world, and americans ate meat with nearly every meal, heavy beers had fallen out of favor...

Bush and other German Brewers started looking at other styles of Beers, and came upon Karl Balling and Anton Schwartz's work at the Prague Polytechnic Institute with the Brewers in Bohemia who when faced with a grain shortage started using adjuncts, which produced the pils which was light, sparkly and fruity tasting...just the thing for American tastebuds.

So the brewers brought Schwartz to America where he went to work for American Brewer Magazine writing articles and technical monographs, teaching American brewers how to use Rice and Corn...

The sad moral of the story is....The big corporate brewers did not foist tasteless adjunct laced fizzy water on us, like the popular mythology all of us beersnobs like to take to bed with us to feel all warm and elitist....it was done because our American ancestors wanted it.

The reason I asked about the corn is because I see a lot of people out there using it and want to know what it brings to the beer. I was surprised how good the Bud clone tasted. Price has nothing to do with it, there is nothing cheap about home brewing when you add in equipment, must have gadgets,time and brews gone bad. Just want to experiment and try different methods/ingredients.

Joejaz,
I would do what you intended. Bake a BMC clone. I did it for the same reasons and do not regret it a bit. If using flaked corn and minute rice you will be fine. They both go directly in the mash without running the grain mill. If you want to do a cereal mash then just read up on that.

Links:
http://www.ingermann.com/cerealmash.html
http://www.hbd.org/hbd/archive/4732.html
http://byo.com/departments/1583.html
http://www.hopbarley.org/recipes/cap1.html