slogger
Well-Known Member
Is it ok to leave the lid on when bringing to a boil?
I ask because I'm boiling on an electric stovetop and it's painfully slow.
I ask because I'm boiling on an electric stovetop and it's painfully slow.
Lid on pot to bring wort to boil
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Seven
Well-Known Member
I leave the lid on when bringing up to a boil. Once it's boiling remove the lid for the duration of the boil.
aerod1
Well-Known Member
I leave the lid on to bring it to a boil and then slide it slightly to one side to keep some heat in yet also prevent a hot break. 
They say you should never do that,as it prevents some nasty,off flavor causing compounds to stay in the water. It should be allowed to steam/boil off to be rid of it. I let it do this on my electric stove till about .5G steams away. Then put a lid on ,leaving it cracked open a bit to get it to boiling. & I've got the thing cranked wide open.
frydogbrews
Well-Known Member
i have heard this many many times, yet, it doesn't make any sense. you can take the foulest, most disgusting water, (really, take a poop in it) then boil it and harvest the steam; you end up with delicious, perfectly clean water. i have done this more times than i care to remember while backpacking.
the thing is, the only thing that leaves the water in steam, is pure water. what are people thinking is inside that steam? best as i can tell, this is some relic from distilling where you let the first (toxic) flow and the last flow go. that's real by the way.
i usually leave my lid cracked during the boil only so i can monitor the boil better so all the hops don't end up stuck to the lid and on the side of the kettle above the wort. i use much less propane this way and evaporate less water as well.
all i ask is for someone to please explain what is in the steam? and possibly a source for that info, other than just an author of a homebrewing book saying it is so.
There are plenty of volatile compounds that turn gaseous when heated or are already gaseous and are simply driven off by the violent upward bubbling of the liquid.
The main offender we're referring to is something called DMS. If you leave the lid on, none of it can escape. Even if you leave a crack open, most of it doesn't (just look at all the water that collects on the bottom of the lid!) But leaving the lid on in order to help raise the temperature to a boil, and then removing it once you reach a boil, is perfectly fine.
The main offender we're referring to is something called DMS. If you leave the lid on, none of it can escape. Even if you leave a crack open, most of it doesn't (just look at all the water that collects on the bottom of the lid!) But leaving the lid on in order to help raise the temperature to a boil, and then removing it once you reach a boil, is perfectly fine.
smalliewader
Well-Known Member
OK, who is gonna be the first to ask frydogbrew why he craps in his water then drinks it?
To The op, i do the same on my electric stove top. I even have to put the lid back on when doing late additions, but remove again as soon as it returns to a boil. Usually only a few minutes.
To The op, i do the same on my electric stove top. I even have to put the lid back on when doing late additions, but remove again as soon as it returns to a boil. Usually only a few minutes.
That was it,dimethylsulfide. Besides chlorine. They must be allowed to off gas before putting the lid on. Leaving the lid on allows it to condense & drip back into solution. More critical for beer making than making "potable" water. Did that in my day as well.
Your not boiling just water when making beer, right....
EDIT:::
Let me get a little bit more in-dept.
Here is the definition of DMS:
Dimethyl sulfide (DMS) or methylthiomethane is an organosulfur compound with the formula (CH3)2S. Dimethyl sulfide is a water-insoluble flammable liquid that boils at 37 °C (99 °F) and has a characteristic disagreeable odor. It is a component of the smell produced from cooking of certain vegetables, notably maize, cabbage, beetroot and seafoods. It is also an indication of bacterial infection in malt production and brewing. It is a breakdown product of dimethylsulfoniopropionate (DMSP), and is also produced by the bacterial metabolism of methanethiol.
As you see the boiling point is lower than water, thus it is evaporating well before water. So this means if you see steam, then DMS is boiling in there. Which in turn mixes with the water vapor and will condense back into the pot.
frydogbrews
Well-Known Member
so if DMS boils at 99, and my hot water heat is set to heat water to 124, (which is the hottest temp that it comes out of the tap), when i put 124 degree water into my brew kettle, wouldn't the DMS come out right then? i am comfortable putting hot water into my brew kettle because the house is 6 years old and has lead free solders on all the pipe joints.
might be different for me i guess because i have untreated well water, but i have never had off flavors from DMS, chlorine, or anything else anyone has attributed to the water.
i still think that anything that would leave the water during the boil would be so slightly flavored, that the malt and the hops would completly mask it.
i'm not saying i am right, that's just what it would seem to me. in my mind, this falls into the realm of "brewing voodoo", similar to the always secondary everything idea that many have.
might be different for me i guess because i have untreated well water, but i have never had off flavors from DMS, chlorine, or anything else anyone has attributed to the water.
i still think that anything that would leave the water during the boil would be so slightly flavored, that the malt and the hops would completly mask it.
i'm not saying i am right, that's just what it would seem to me. in my mind, this falls into the realm of "brewing voodoo", similar to the always secondary everything idea that many have.
It's not DMS that is boiling off, actually. It's the DMS precursors, notably SMM. From our wiki: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/DMS
If you don't have any DMS flavor in your beer, that's good! I've found it in quite a few homebrews I've judged, as well as in many commerical beers (Rolling Rock, anyone?).
DMS is worse in lightly kilned malts, and not that common in extract beers but I've seen it (well, tasted it) in extract beers. It's far from brewing voodoo- it's a real issue and results in vegetal flavor in beer.
If you don't have any DMS flavor in your beer, that's good! I've found it in quite a few homebrews I've judged, as well as in many commerical beers (Rolling Rock, anyone?).
DMS is worse in lightly kilned malts, and not that common in extract beers but I've seen it (well, tasted it) in extract beers. It's far from brewing voodoo- it's a real issue and results in vegetal flavor in beer.
The flavor it imparts has nothing to do with the boiling point. Being a fairly volatile compound doesn't make it "subtle". It's actually just the opposite — DMS starts becoming noticeable even in extremely low concentrations. In fact, the "S" stands for sulfur, and sulfur compounds have a notoriously low detection threshold (which is why, for example, you can REALLY smell someone's breath after they've just eaten garlic). Though some malts (pilsner malt in particular) have much higher level of the DMS precursor SMM than others.
Which brings up the other point. Just because you add water at above the boiling point of it doesn't mean it solve the problem. And it's not just because it's unrealistic to expect it to instantaneously boil off any more than an entire pot of water will just suddenly evaporate at once.
As I mentioned earlier, there is a precursor compound called SMM in the malt, which undergoes a chemical reaction to form DMS. This reaction only even BEGINS to happen at 175°. I don't know what the boiling point of SMM is, but the MELTING POINT is well above 212°, so it will not boil off on its own — it has to convert to DMS first, and the reaction takes time. Because of this, it's the SMM levels in the malt that will ultimately influence the amount of DMS that ends up in the beer; even though DMS is ALSO present in the malt, that particular bunch of molecules are almost entirely gone by the time you're finished making your wort. Ironically, this also means you can avoid DMS in your beer by *skipping the boiling entirely*, such as with a Berliner Weisse — boiling isn't just needed to get rid of it, it's also what's creating it in the first place!
Now, even though this is a major source of DMS in a finished beer, it's not the only one. Another compound found in malt is called DMSO, which pretty much makes it through to the wort untouched. Certain yeast strains will reduce DMSO to DMS, although this happens much more with wild yeasts and bacterias, so DMS is often an indication of an infection, especially if you've had prior experience with the strain you pitched, but never had a DMS issue in the past.
Which brings up the other point. Just because you add water at above the boiling point of it doesn't mean it solve the problem. And it's not just because it's unrealistic to expect it to instantaneously boil off any more than an entire pot of water will just suddenly evaporate at once.
As I mentioned earlier, there is a precursor compound called SMM in the malt, which undergoes a chemical reaction to form DMS. This reaction only even BEGINS to happen at 175°. I don't know what the boiling point of SMM is, but the MELTING POINT is well above 212°, so it will not boil off on its own — it has to convert to DMS first, and the reaction takes time. Because of this, it's the SMM levels in the malt that will ultimately influence the amount of DMS that ends up in the beer; even though DMS is ALSO present in the malt, that particular bunch of molecules are almost entirely gone by the time you're finished making your wort. Ironically, this also means you can avoid DMS in your beer by *skipping the boiling entirely*, such as with a Berliner Weisse — boiling isn't just needed to get rid of it, it's also what's creating it in the first place!
Now, even though this is a major source of DMS in a finished beer, it's not the only one. Another compound found in malt is called DMSO, which pretty much makes it through to the wort untouched. Certain yeast strains will reduce DMSO to DMS, although this happens much more with wild yeasts and bacterias, so DMS is often an indication of an infection, especially if you've had prior experience with the strain you pitched, but never had a DMS issue in the past.
frydogbrews
Well-Known Member
thanks yooper, for providing more info, although you are one of the few i would just trust. anyway, can you describe the vegetal flavors more? i have heard some hops described as vegetal as well (mainly english hops).
admittedly, my palate is crap. i mainly drink hoppy beers, big bold dry reds, and eat spicy, garlicky, etc... type things because i just can't taste much. a botanist with lots of plant allergies doesn't bode well for the tongue!
i do apologize for slightly hijacking the thread, this is just something i have not understood for awhile.
admittedly, my palate is crap. i mainly drink hoppy beers, big bold dry reds, and eat spicy, garlicky, etc... type things because i just can't taste much. a botanist with lots of plant allergies doesn't bode well for the tongue!
i do apologize for slightly hijacking the thread, this is just something i have not understood for awhile.
frydogbrews
Well-Known Member
that's quality info emjay, thanks! i think i was typing my last response while you were typing that. i appreciate it.
now i kind of want to make a batch and try to bring out the SMM flavors as much as possible just to know what is tastes like. maybe a simple beer, so i don't waste much cashola, but 25 bucks seems worth it to further my beer knowledge.
now i kind of want to make a batch and try to bring out the SMM flavors as much as possible just to know what is tastes like. maybe a simple beer, so i don't waste much cashola, but 25 bucks seems worth it to further my beer knowledge.
If you are interested in really knowing what DMS tastes and smells like in a finished beer, it might be worth while to 'spike' a beer with the flavor. Your local homebrew club and store will probably be able to help you out with that. Actually tasting a spiked beer will go a lot farther than making a mediocre beer and hoping what your tasting is DMS.
Yooper said:
That's a tad inaccurate
It is most certainly the DMS boiling off. The SMM converts to DMS during the boil, but at no point is there SMM boiling away - it remains a solid in solution the entire time until it is converted to DMS, because its melting point is significantly above 212° (let alone its boiling point!), while the DMS does in fact boil off because (as previously pointed out by someone) the boiling point of DMS is 99°.
slogger
Well-Known Member
No! Don't apologize. The info that folks have replied with is exactly what I was looking for although I didn't know it. So thanks!
That's a tad inaccurate
It is most certainly the DMS boiling off. The SMM converts to DMS during the boil, but at no point is there SMM boiling away - it remains a solid in solution the entire time until it is converted to DMS, because its melting point is significantly above 212° (let alone its boiling point!), while the DMS does in fact boil off because (as previously pointed out by someone) the boiling point of DMS is 99°.
Yeah, emjay is right. I was just trying to "keep it simple" and didn't get into the SMM (and other precursors) converting to DMS at a certain temperature before boiling off as DMS.
Keep in mind that DMS is also created AFTER the boil. While you're chilling, the steam rising off contains newly-formed DMS as well.
Go buy a Rolling Rock! It's loaded with DMS, especially if you let it warm up to 45-50 degrees as you drink. When it's cold, it only has a hint of corn, but as it gets warmer you can really get the vegetal taste.
Sometimes, DMS tastes more like cooked cabbage than corn but sometimes it's just a real corn flavor too.
frydogbrews
Well-Known Member
i had promised myself i would never buy rolling rock again, but it appears that i have to. maybe i'll buy a six pack and give five to some poor college kids!
A friend of mine who brews for New Belgium says that DMS is not as much of an issue these days because many of the malts have been modified over the years making it a none issue. The topic came up when I questioned him on whter they do extended boils with pilsner malts
My first batch was on an electric stove and I couldn't get a boil for a long time. I didn't know about DMS and left the lid on to help it boil. It tastes like grass now. DMS is defenitly still an issue. I even shook the condensate off the lid into the pot. *doh!*
My lament as well,darn electric stoves. I have to crank mine wide open to get it to boil eventually. Thinking of getting a new stove,hopefully with more power.
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