I want to brew a double or quad!

To begin with, im a complete sucker for belgian beers. Even going on a trip soon to visit some of my favourite breweries(st bernardus, bosteels, kapitel, westvleteren, cantillon and a few more). Ive brewed a couple of beers with moderate results so far. Tripels, saisons and some amerian pale ales. I have dark syrup, special b, abbey, pale ale, vienna, munich and chocolate malt. Can anyone suggest a good beginners recipe for a belgian double or quad? I really dont like plum and raisin notes(chimay blue and rochefort) but really like caraml and nutty flavours. Westy 12 or bernardus abt 12 clones might be too hard for me to succeed with. Since i am a new to this whole homebrewing thing i dont want to bottle condition a beer for 6 months only to discover its a failure. There must be a recipe for a dark belgian ale thats ok to drink after like 3 weeks primary and a month bottleconditioning? And with the malts that i have. I have the usual hops, hallertauer, goldings and saaz...

If you want to get started with a kit, Brewer's Best has a Belgian saison, dark strong, golden, IPA, tripel, witbier, and caramel witbier. Every one of my students who has used a BB kit has turned out a good beer.

As for recipes, the following have gotten good reviews:

• Biermuncher's SWMBO Slayer Blonde
• Revvy's Belgian Blonde Leffe clone
• Hurric4ne's Belgian Tripel Final Absolution clone
• Saq's The Pious Westvleteren 12 clone

There are several others on this site, under Recipes -> Belgian Strong Ale.

sptaylor70 said:

If you want to get started with a kit, Brewer's Best has a Belgian saison, dark strong, golden, IPA, tripel, witbier, and caramel witbier. Every one of my students who has used a BB kit has turned out a good beer.

As for recipes, the following have gotten good reviews:

• Biermuncher's SWMBO Slayer Blonde
• Revvy's Belgian Blonde Leffe clone
• Hurric4ne's Belgian Tripel Final Absolution clone
• Saq's The Pious Westvleteren 12 clone

There are several others on this site, under Recipes -> Belgian Strong Ale.

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Thanks for the tips. As for kits, i have a bunch of specialty malts at home so no kits. I bought the stuff after reading the new world westy clone by saqs(you mention it above). But after reading the fermentation schedule i now think i should aim for a smaller beer. I have no problem with having to bottle condition the beer for 5-6 months but im afraid of waiting 6 months for a bad beer. Maybe i should wait until im more confident in my brewing before i attempt a dark belgian. It seems like every second one i try is either too sweet, too "hot" or too much plum... Theres a real good belgian pub here with about 900 different belgians so im trying 2-3 new dubbel/quads per month

I came up with this recipe. What do you think?
2 gal
Pale ale malt 5lb
Munich malt 1.5 lb
Dark belgian candi syrup 1.5 lb added added during the foamy fermentation
Abbey malt .5 lb
Special b or chocolate malt? .3 lb

Hops
Styrian golding or hallertauer 1 oz 60 min
Saaz 1 oz 5 min

Mash 90 min at 149 f?

High gravity smack pack at 21 degrees
Keep it at 65f for first two days and then add the sugar and let it go wild at 74 until its time for secondary

Dont really know expected og and fg. But my at my last brew i had a 67% efficiency

I think that this is a really big beer. Running it through Brewer's Friend, set at 60% brewhouse efficience, I get OG = 1107, which is right in line for a Belgian dark strong ale, rather than the "smaller beer" that you mention. Your recipe will, no doubt, make a fine beer, but you will be waiting six months to see how it turned out.

If you want a smaller Belgian (i.e. one that can be finished in 6-8 weeks, while waiting on your quad), you could try for a summer Saison. This is a recipe based on the Saison Été from Zymurgy, May/June 2008.

Volume 5.5 gallons
Grain
9 lbs. Pale or Pilsner malt
3 lbs. Wheat malt
8 oz. Vienna malt
4 oz. Acid malt

Adjuncts and spices
16 oz. Candi sugar, 5 min.
1/4 tsp. black pepper or grains of paradise, 5 min.
1/4 tsp. coriander, crushed, 5 min.
Zest from 1/2 orange, 5 min.

Hops
1.75 oz. Styrian Goldings, 60 min.
2 oz. Saaz, 5 min.

Yeast Wyeast 3711 French Saison, or WLP568 Belgian Blend, or WLP585 Saison 3.

Mash at 150 degF, boil 60-90 minutes. OG 1069, FG 1010, SRM 4, IBU 34.

http://www.boomchugalug.com/product/st-huhlousinayshun-s-quadruppel/

I love these guys and I'm dying to make this, but I'm getting some practice with nailing my flavors before going big. Check out their grain bill, it's very similar to what you have. If you want to buy the kit they have $7.99 flat shipping anywhere, based out of Nashua, NH.

Yeah your recipe for 2 gallons is definitely a quad. I brewed a somewhat similar recipe as a Quad last April. It went through a quasi-lagering phase at 50F for 2 months in secondary before being bottled. Not very interesting at 3 months in bottle, started picking out the stone fruit at 6 months, and then the malty flavor really came into play at 9 months.

If you want a dark belgian that is decent 1 month in bottle, I would discourage you from brewing a big quad and encourage you to brew a smaller Dubbel. I brewed a Dubbel (1.061 OG, 1.009 FG, 7% ABV) that peaked between months 3 and 4 from brew date. It had 8.5 lbs pils, 2 lbs Munich, 8 oz Special B, 2 oz chocolate, 2 oz C80, and 1 lb of D90 syrup. I went 1 month primary and 1 month secondary.

Patience is key with Belgians IMO. Especially the bigger Tripels and Quads. You'd miss out greatly by drinking these early.

solbes said:

Yeah your recipe for 2 gallons is definitely a quad. I brewed a somewhat similar recipe as a Quad last April. It went through a quasi-lagering phase at 50F for 2 months in secondary before being bottled. Not very interesting at 3 months in bottle, started picking out the stone fruit at 6 months, and then the malty flavor really came into play at 9 months.



If you want a dark belgian that is decent 1 month in bottle, I would discourage you from brewing a big quad and encourage you to brew a smaller Dubbel. I brewed a Dubbel (1.061 OG, 1.009 FG, 7% ABV) that peaked between months 3 and 4 from brew date. It had 8.5 lbs pils, 2 lbs Munich, 8 oz Special B, 2 oz chocolate, 2 oz C80, and 1 lb of D90 syrup. I went 1 month primary and 1 month secondary.



Patience is key with Belgians IMO. Especially the bigger Tripels and Quads. You'd miss out greatly by drinking these early.

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Sounds like a tasty recipe. I cant get hold of candisyrup products thou. I have dark belgian candi syrup. Is c80 also a candisyrup product? How big batch size is that recipe for? What yeast should i use?
Oh yeah, the plum/raisin taste that o dont like. Does it come from malt or yeast?


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Even a 2 gallon batch I'd make the starter for this one with wyeast. Check out mr malty and run calcs.


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C80L is a crystal malt.

Plum/raisin flavor comes mostly from dark crystal malts (notably Special B).

Any of the Belgian yeasts should make a good dubbel. Read the product descriptions on the Wyeast website and see which ones resonate with you.

Agree that the plum comes mostly from Special B, but some from the D90 Candisyrup too. Both are necessary ingredients IMO for a representative Dubbel, but if you dont like that flavor, maybe use table sugar for attenuation and 3-4 oz of Victory malt(for nutty flavor) in a 2 gal batch.

That recipe made 5 gallons, I used WY3787 with a starter.

solbes said:

Yeah your recipe for 2 gallons is definitely a quad. I brewed a somewhat similar recipe as a Quad last April. It went through a quasi-lagering phase at 50F for 2 months in secondary before being bottled. Not very interesting at 3 months in bottle, started picking out the stone fruit at 6 months, and then the malty flavor really came into play at 9 months.

If you want a dark belgian that is decent 1 month in bottle, I would discourage you from brewing a big quad and encourage you to brew a smaller Dubbel. I brewed a Dubbel (1.061 OG, 1.009 FG, 7% ABV) that peaked between months 3 and 4 from brew date. It had 8.5 lbs pils, 2 lbs Munich, 8 oz Special B, 2 oz chocolate, 2 oz C80, and 1 lb of D90 syrup. I went 1 month primary and 1 month secondary.

Patience is key with Belgians IMO. Especially the bigger Tripels and Quads. You'd miss out greatly by drinking these early.

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How about this?

rockdemon said:

Sounds like a tasty recipe. I cant get hold of candisyrup products thou. I have dark belgian candi syrup. Is c80 also a candisyrup product? How big batch size is that recipe for? What yeast should i use?
Oh yeah, the plum/raisin taste that o dont like. Does it come from malt or yeast?


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Making your own candi sugar, either as a solid or syrup, is a no-brainer - and a whole lot cheaper than buying it. This site has good, step-by-step directions:

http://joshthebrewmaster.wordpress.com/2010/11/27/how-to-make-belgian-candi-sugar/

troy2000 said:

Making your own candi sugar, either as a solid or syrup, is a no-brainer - and a whole lot cheaper than buying it. This site has good, step-by-step directions:

http://joshthebrewmaster.wordpress.com/2010/11/27/how-to-make-belgian-candi-sugar/

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Cool! Great guide! Getting some breaking bad vibes from it. So if i make dark candi sugar i can just boil that with some water, cool it and then use as the bought dark belgian candi syrup?

rockdemon said:

Cool! Great guide! Getting some breaking bad vibes from it. So if i make dark candi sugar i can just boil that with some water, cool it and then use as the bought dark belgian candi syrup?

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Yep. In another post, he also gives step-by-step directions for turning the sugar into syrup. Not that you really need them....

http://joshthebrewmaster.wordpress.com/2010/12/01/how-to-make-belgian-candi-syrup/

If you're going to add the candi sugar during the boil, you shouldn't even need to turn it into syrup first. But I usually melt a pound of it in a frying pan with a cup of water while I'm doing my boil, and stir it into the brew kettle at flame-out.

Of course that's for the five-gallon batches of saison I brew; your mileage may vary.

That recipe looks good. I would make a 2-3 quart starter with the WY3787 prior to pitching. Chill wort to 64, hold at 64 for 1.5 days, slowly ramp to 70 over 4-5 days. Watch the foam, 3787 is a true top cropper and can blow a bucket lid sky high.

Your IBU's are heavy for the style, so you could remove 1 oz of hops, or switch them around so you target 21-25 IBU's. Or leave it as is.

solbes said:

That recipe looks good. I would make a 2-3 quart starter with the WY3787 prior to pitching. Chill wort to 64, hold at 64 for 1.5 days, slowly ramp to 70 over 4-5 days. Watch the foam, 3787 is a true top cropper and can blow a bucket lid sky high.

Your IBU's are heavy for the style, so you could remove 1 oz of hops, or switch them around so you target 21-25 IBU's. Or leave it as is.

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Sounds good. Modified the recipe to lower the ibu. I harvested yeast from my last batch. I was hoping to be able to use that yeast. I just have to study more on how to multiply the cells(make a starter and then add more wort after awhile). Its the wyeast abbey ale. Dont really know how much yeast i actually saved though...?

That actually looks like a pretty good amount of yeast for a Dubbel. If it is healthy and viable, I would decant off the beer and just pitch that.

The new recipe

solbes said:

That actually looks like a pretty good amount of yeast for a Dubbel. If it is healthy and viable, I would decant off the beer and just pitch that.

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Really? Wow! Sjouldnt i make a starter. Maybe a 0.4 gallon starter just to be on the safe side? And maybe also to make sure the yeast is healthy?

Its really up to you. Here's what I do. I often take yeast from batches and brew another 2-3 batches in series with the same yeast. My primaries are generally 3 weeks and I grab my yeast right after racking the beer off the cake.

I wash it once and let it sit in a jar in the fridge. I usually end up with about that much yeast. If its been 2 weeks or less since harvesting the yeast, I decant and direct pitch. If its been more than 2 weeks I will make a 1-2 quart starter to wake them up and get 'em re-energized.

Sounds like a plan! What do i do about the foaming?


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solbes said:

That actually looks like a pretty good amount of yeast for a Dubbel. If it is healthy and viable, I would decant off the beer and just pitch that.

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When pitching my yeast, i just carefully decant the beer and pour the rest in? Or do i just try to get the white stuff? the cake in the bottom isnt yeast right? Do i want that stuff in my beer?

You want the stuff at the bottom after it has had awhile to settle out (white yeast on top is the best, but the creamy colored stuff below has some yeast as well). You decant off the beer above, swirl whats on the bottom, and pitch that.

solbes said:

You want the stuff at the bottom after it has had awhile to settle out (white yeast on top is the best, but the creamy colored stuff below has some yeast as well). You decant off the beer above, swirl whats on the bottom, and pitch that.

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thanks! Ill give this dubbel a go tomorrow. try with a 3 gal batch and hope that the yeast is sufficient. thanks for all the help!

That yeast of mine seem a bit crazy. After 7 days the gravity wen from 1070 to 1009. I added syrup after about two days. Never got very much krausen so i was worried that it had fermented too little( first 2 days i had it at 65F and the let it rise to 65F) . I was very wrong! The abv is now at 8% and will probably rise since its just week one of four in the primary. Im a bit worried about infection when rackibg to 2nd. Could i keep the beer in primary fermenter for a longer period of time and skip secondary? Instead of 4 w prim and 4 w sec. Could i go with 6-8 weeks primary? Im not saving the yeast this time, my next batches will be a saison and then try the la chouffe clone...

Moving to a secondary fermenter is not necessary, and many brewers forgo it. Leaving your beer on the yeast cake for six-eight weeks is not likely to present any problems. (there are plenty of folks who leave it for longer than that).

Racking to secondary is not necessarily needed. I do it with big beers because gass carboys are non-permeable to oxygen. Generally in primary for 3-4 weeks there is enough CO2 coming out that nothing gets in. When racking to secondary, more CO2 is released for the first hour or two. I have plenty of time to get the airlock on it, and then it can sit indefinitely as long as I leave the airlock on. Sometimes I leave big beers in secondary for 3-6 months as it ages uniformly and assures I'm not drinking it

If you do a primary only for 6-8 weeks, try to minimize opening it (or opening it all). Hopefully you keep a decent CO2 blanket on it by keeping it closed up. I have never had yeast autolysis (from leaving beer on large primary cake too long), but I have never gone beyond the 5 week mark in primary either.

I have never had an infection from racking to a glass secondary. Glass is easy to clean with a day long Oxyclean soak. Then a 5 minute rinse/soak in Starsan and you should be good to go. Racking to secondary is extra time and cleaning, I will give you that.

I opened it yesterday to take a gravityreading just to see that it had fermented properly, Ill leave it in prim for 3 weeks more and then bottle it.

I did a gravityreading before i added the yeast and it was 1070. after krausen i added 0.25 liters of dark candisuryp to the 9.5L batch. how can i calculate the real OG?

Candisyrup is 32 ppg (points per pound per gallon, Sorry Sweden - its english units). So you need to know the weight of the Candisyrup you added (in pounds). Converting 9.75 Liters is 2.57 gallons.

Your gravity addition would be: 32 x Wt of Syrup / 2.57.
Example would be 0.5 lb of syrup: 32 * 0.5 / 2.57 = 6 gravity points (New OG is 1.076).

Thanks! But this means that my dubbel is almost a quadruppel about 9% now and probably higher in 3 weeks. Its troublesome to switch between oz, gallons, quarts to metric all the time. Maybe i should only use us measurements when its about beer.



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Metric makes more sense in all cases (I'm an engineer).

Still once you are used to english units, its hard to switch.