Help with Countertop Partial Mashing. Target OG too high.

Hello,

I brewed a dry stout recipe yesterday based on a modified Partial Mash recipe from my LHBS. The original PM recipe was my second home brew and had turned out nicely. However, it was a little on the strong side in terms of ABV (approx 5.3% - 5.4%), as I was hoping for more of a session dry stout at around 4.2%.

So I set the recipe up in BeerSmith and reduced the Dark LME from 5 lbs. to 3.5 lbs. which got it down to around 4.3% ABV in the software's calculations.

Another objective in brewing yesterday was to get more comfortable with 'Countertop Partial Mashing' as described in the following article: BYO - Countertop Partial Mashing. For this I used a 2 gallon beverage cooler for mashing as described in the article.

I created a brew sheet with all of this in mind and followed the instructions as carefully as possible along with those described in the "Countertop Partial Mashing' article.

One deviation from the brew sheet I should note is that after drawing the first and second wort, I sparged with 2 separate 5 quart infusions of 168 F water (instead of the the 4.67 gal of 168 F as indicated on the brew sheet).

So, here is what happened. Everything seemed to go well and I appeared to be getting a lot of extraction from the grains (probably a lot more than I did before when I brewed the original recipe from the LHBS which called for just soaking the grains in 155 F water for 45 min.).

I added the 3.5 lbs. of Dark Liquid Malt Extract at the end (15 min.) of the boil as described in the brew sheet and article, but ended up with an OG reading of over 1.070 instead of the expected 1.044 as stated on the brew sheet.

I was pretty surprised and was concerned with such a high OG in terms of fermentability and ABV. I wasn't sure what to do to salvage the brew, so I made an on the spot decision to remove enough of the wort, diluting with filtered water to get the OG down into the desired range. I was shooting for 1.044 as calculated by BeerSmith, but stopped around 1.055 as a didn't want to lose too much continuing to dilute it.

I'm not sure whether this was the right thing to do or not and what the possible repercussions of it would be, but I didn't want a stalled fermentation or a dry stout with over 7% ABV.

Looking back now, I think that the Counter Top Partial mashing approach was probably much more effective at extracting the sugars etc. than what the instructions in the original recipe would result in.

So, I have a lot of questions now:

Should I have reduced the amount of LME in the recipe even further down from the original 5 lbs. that was called for? Ie. 2lbs. instead of the 3.5 lbs. that I used?

Why didn't BeerSmith report a higher estimated OG based on these ingredients? Is it because of the Countertop Partial Mashing method? If so, how do I account for that in the software? And is that method even necessary with a recipe like this?

What is going to happen to my beer? What are the ramifications of diluting the wort the way I did?

Is there anything else I could have or should have done different with the recipe or mash method?

Any input would be much appreciated. I'm feeling pretty bummed about messing this one up and want to learn from any mistakes.

Thanks,
John

One deviation from the brew sheet I should note is that after drawing the first and second wort, I sparged with 2 separate 5 quart infusions of 168 F water (instead of the the 4.67 gal of 168 F as indicated on the brew sheet).
You only sparged 2.5 gallons when the recipe called for 4.67 gallons. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but maybe in doing this you sparged a much richer wort. The remaining 1.33 gallons might have helped to dilute your wort a bit, thus getting you closer to your target OG.

I was pretty surprised and was concerned with such a high OG in terms of fermentability and ABV. I wasn't sure what to do to salvage the brew, so I made an on the spot decision to remove enough of the wort, diluting with filtered water to get the OG down into the desired range.
I think you did fine. By watering down the wort to your target OG, you stuck closer to the recipe. You still have the right proportion of wort and LME, according to the recipe

Looking back now, I think that the Counter Top Partial mashing approach was probably much more effective at extracting the sugars etc. than what the instructions in the original recipe would result in.
The original recipe was just an Extract with steeping grains recipe, correct? By mashing the steeping grains you would potentially extract more of the sugar from the gains that if you had just steeped them, so that too could be why your OG was high.

Why didn't BeerSmith report a higher estimated OG based on these ingredients? Is it because of the Countertop Partial Mashing method? If so, how do I account for that in the software? And is that method even necessary with a recipe like this?
Not sure as I don't use BeerSmith....but if the recipe is an Extract method and you mashed the steeping grains, then I would think it would throw off the numbers a bit.

What is going to happen to my beer? What are the ramifications of diluting the wort the way I did?
You beer will be fine. What was your final gravity after you adjusted your wort?

Any input would be much appreciated. I'm feeling pretty bummed about messing this one up and want to learn from any mistakes.
DeathBrewer posted a very nice tutorial on Easy Partial Mash Brewing (in a carpeted apartment!). You may want to check it out.

Something isn't right. You should have gotten around 1.024 from 3.5lbs of LME so you are saying you got 1.055 from a partial mash? That would equate to 10lbs pale malt @ 70% efficiency which is full blown all grain numbers.

How much grain did you use? Unless the 1.070 was a 3 gallon OG something is weird. 3.5lbs lme + 4lbs grain at 70% will give you around 1.070 for 3 gallons. But it would be around 1.043 for 5 gallons.

What temp was the wort when you took your gravity readings?

Also, if your wort wasn't thoroughly mixed with your water (you did a partial boil) you will not get an accurate reading.

talleymonster : You only sparged 2.5 gallons when the recipe called for 4.67 gallons. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but maybe in doing this you sparged a much richer wort. The remaining 1.33 gallons might have helped to dilute your wort a bit, thus getting you closer to your target OG.

jcole: Yes, I think that something was off in my BeerSmith recipe settings, as 4.67 gallons seemed to be way too much to sparge with. I was already close to 3 gallons of wort transferred to the brew pot at that time. So I tried to estimate the amount of sparge water that would take me close to 5 gallons. I topped off the fermenter with enough water to bring it to 5 gallons total, but the OG was still off the charts.

talleymonster : The original recipe was just an Extract with steeping grains recipe, correct? By mashing the steeping grains you would potentially extract more of the sugar from the gains that if you had just steeped them, so that too could be why your OG was high.

jcole: Yes, I it was a partial mash recipe calling for soaking the grains at 155 F for 45 min. This may be the crux of the issue - but I did reduce the LME from 5 lbs. to 3.5 lbs to try and account for the lower desired ABV and the mashing.

talleymonster : Not sure as I don't use BeerSmith....but if the recipe is an Extract method and you mashed the steeping grains, then I would think it would throw off the numbers a bit.

jcole: Ok. Does any one have any suggestions as to what I should change in my mashing profile in BeerSmith to address this?

talleymonster : You beer will be fine. What was your final gravity after you adjusted your wort?

jcole: It was about 1.055 when I pitched my yeast. Also, I strained the 2 oz. of pellet hops that I used, but still seemed to have a fair amount of debris floating in the wort. I wonder if that could have added to the OG?

talleymonster : DeathBrewer posted a very nice tutorial on Easy Partial Mash Brewing (in a carpeted apartment!). You may want to check it out.

jcole: I've read that. Its a great tutorial. However, on my last two brews I've been following the method outlined in the previously mentioned 'Countertop Partial Mashing' article to see what kind of results I get there. Maybe I'll stick closer to the method that DeathBrewer outlines and see if I get more reliable results going forward.

Thanks,
John

TeleTwanger said:

Something isn't right. You should have gotten around 1.024 from 3.5lbs of LME so you are saying you got 1.055 from a partial mash? That would equate to 10lbs pale malt @ 70% efficiency which is full blown all grain numbers.

Click to expand...

I agree. Something is off, I'm just not yet sure what.

TeleTwanger said:

How much grain did you use? Unless the 1.070 was a 3 gallon OG something is weird. 3.5lbs lme + 4lbs grain at 70% will give you around 1.070 for 3 gallons. But it would be around 1.043 for 5 gallons.

Click to expand...

Here are the grain amounts used:

3 lbs 8.0 oz Dark Liquid Extract [Late boil for 15 min]
2 lbs Pale Malt, Maris Otter
1 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L
8.0 oz Black Barley (Stout)
4.0 oz Black (Patent) Malt

I took the OG reading in the primary once it had been topped off to 5 gallons.

Thanks,
John

talleymonster said:

What temp was the wort when you took your gravity readings?

Also, if your wort wasn't thoroughly mixed with your water (you did a partial boil) you will not get an accurate reading.

Click to expand...

It was probably around 85 F as I took the reading from my primary once I had topped it off to 5 gallons.

John

jcole said:

I agree. Something is off, I'm just not yet sure what.



Here are the grain amounts used:

3 lbs 8.0 oz Dark Liquid Extract [Late boil for 15 min]
2 lbs Pale Malt, Maris Otter
1 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L
8.0 oz Black Barley (Stout)
4.0 oz Black (Patent) Malt

I took the OG reading in the primary once it had been topped off to 5 gallons.

Thanks,
John

Click to expand...

You probably got a high reading from not mixing the wort properly. I would go by the numbers for actual OG. So my rough calculations are (in simplist calculator form):
3.5lbsX35/5=(24.5)+4lbsX35/5X.7=1.044 Thats roughly what you should have +/- a few pts.

damn....I can't find where I have it bookmarked.

But a reading taken at that temp will need to be adjusted. I don't know the formula for it. Perhaps somebody will chime in with it here.

Hmmm... so, if that's the case - it was operator error in taking a gravity reading at too high a temp? And then by diluting it, I probably screwed it up - when otherwise it would have been fine?

What is the right temp for taking an OG reading then?

Learning every day...

Thanks,
John

Yeah. A hydrometer is calibrated for a reading at 60*f. Still looking for that equation.

jcole said:

Hmmm... so, if that's the case - it was operator error in taking a gravity reading at too high a temp? And then by diluting it, I probably screwed it up - when otherwise it would have been fine?

What is the right temp for taking an OG reading then?

Learning every day...

Thanks,
John

Click to expand...

Adjusting for temps would make the OG even higher. Add .002 for every 10 degrees high it's off 60 or 70 whatever it's calibrated at.

I just put enough wort in the hydrometer to get a reading then put the cap on and put it under running water for a few minutes rather than use fudge factors.

Most hydrometers are designed to be used at 60F. The paper that came with the hydrometer should have the correct temp on it. If you don't have that paper anymore, get a bottle of distilled water and check it's gravity at 60F. It should read 1.000. Some hydrometers are designed to be used at 68F, though.

Thanks for the info. I checked and my hydrometer is calibrated at 60 F.

So, if I took the reading at around 80 F then based on the above comment about adding to .002 for every 10 degrees above 60 F, that would make the OG even higher as TeleTwanger said.

Am I missing something here, or doesn't that still mean that my OG was way too high?

John

Well, I'm still sticking with what I said here.

Homebrewing is a constant learning process. You can be confident that this beer will turn out just fine. And everything you're learning here today you can employ into your next brew day.

BTW, your brew Sheet is awesome. Always have a plan. I like it.

With the volumes, ingredients, and weights that you mentioned, it is impossible to get a gravity of 1.070. If you confused gallons with liters, or Kg with lbs, then you may be able to get up there, but I don't think that is likely.
If your weights or volumes were slightly off, then that would give a slightly false reading, but not enough to explain 1.070.
Did you read from the correct scale on the hydrometer? If you read from the potential alcohol scale, then 7% would give you a reading of ~1.050. If you read from the balling scale, then 7 would give you about 1.038. Either of those could be explained by slight inaccuracies in weights or volumes.
It's also possible that your hydrometer is inaccurate. Try taking the gravity of 60 degree tap water. That should read 1.000 If you want to be really accurate, you could use distilled water, but I doubt you would be able to tell the difference.
If none of the above explains the error, then you didn't mix the sample well enough, or the hydrometer was not floating freely.

-a.

talleymonster said:

Well, I'm still sticking with what I said here.

Homebrewing is a constant learning process. You can be confident that this beer will turn out just fine. And everything you're learning here today you can employ into your next brew day.

Click to expand...

I hope so. It continues to be a good learning experience in any case....

talleymonster said:

BTW, your brew Sheet is awesome. Always have a plan. I like it.

Click to expand...

Thanks. BeerSmith generates those. However, I'm still in the process of getting familiar with and learning that software.

John

jcole said:

Hmmm... so, if that's the case - it was operator error in taking a gravity reading at too high a temp? And then by diluting it, I probably screwed it up - when otherwise it would have been fine?

What is the right temp for taking an OG reading then?

Learning every day...

Thanks,
John

Click to expand...

Most hydrometers are calibrated at 60 degrees. There's a shift of a few points from 60-85, but nothing like you suggested. I'm guessing you just got a sample before it was all mixed together.

carnevoodoo said:

I'm guessing you just got a sample before it was all mixed together.

Click to expand...

You may be right. That makes about as much sense as anything else at this point.

I'm probably going to try this same recipe tomorrow, but using DeathBrewer's partial mash method and making sure I both mix the wort well and cool the sample to the right temp before getting the reading.

I'm still thinking that the batch I brewed yesterday has some issues and I don't want to wait 7 weeks before I have the desired stout in hand.

Unless there is reason to do otherwise, I'm going to keep the same recipe ingredients and amounts.

John

For those of you still reading, here's my new brew sheet for tomorrow : http://www.metatractor.com/files/recipes/johns_dry_stout2.pdf

I've keep the ingredient items and amounts the same, but reworked the mashing profile in BeerSmith to more closely follow DeathBrewer's method.

I'll be adding the LME at the end of the boil.

I also couldn't figure out in BeerSmith how customize the following sparge step:

"Sparge with 3.66 gal of 168.0 F water."

Based on DeathBrewer's method, it looks like he using the same amount of water for sparging as he did mashing. In my case, about 4.5 qts. of 168 F water.

I also thought the following item on the brew sheet was interesting in light of the issue I had with the OG yesterday:

"Add water to achieve boil volume of 4.08 gal
Estimated Pre-boil Gravity is: 1.057 SG with all grains/extracts added"

So, that's 1.057 SG on 4.08 gallons, BEFORE the 3.5 lbs. of extract is added. Adding another gallon to top it off to 5 gallons will obviously dilute it, but will dilute it enough to bring it down to 1.044 after the 3.5 lbs. of LME?

Thoughts?

Thanks for all of the input.

John

off the subject please, but my first batch of ale is about ready to bottle. Question: when the directions call for 1 tsp charging sugar /16 oz bottle (and that sucrose is ok to use), is it referring to powdered sugar (2.4 grams/tsp) or extra fine granulated (4.3 grams per tsp)? I've weighed both. The granulated is muchy easier to measure but which is being referenced? It would make a big difference.

A good rule of thumbs for sparge amounts is 25% more water than was used for mashing or .5 gallons per lbs of grain.

jcole said:

Estimated Pre-boil Gravity is: 1.057 SG with all grains/extracts added"

So, that's 1.057 SG on 4.08 gallons, BEFORE the 3.5 lbs. of extract is added. Adding another gallon to top it off to 5 gallons will obviously dilute it, but will dilute it enough to bring it down to 1.044 after the 3.5 lbs. of LME?

John

Click to expand...

That's 1.057 with all grains and extract for 4 gallons. The OG for 5 gallons will be around 1.046.

Think of it this way you're getting around 1.030 for 4 gallons from the extract and 1.026 from the grain. Total is 1.057 for 4 gallons. The math is roughly 3.5lbs extract X 35points per lbs extract/4gallons =30 (1.030) + 4 lbs grain x35points per lbs of grain/4gallonsX75%efficiency=26 (1.026)now do the same equation but divide by 5gallons each time and you'll get your 1.046.

the formula (lbsXpoints/gallons) + (lbsXpoints/gallonsXefficiency)stays the same you just plug in different numbers such as
lme=35
dme=40
pale malt=35
crystal=24
roast barley=24
black malt=24
etc;
Just plug in your lbs of extract and gallons and do the same with grain but you include the efficiency variable. After you get a number such as 30 put 1.0 in front and you're done.

Thanks for all of the help TeleTwanger

TeleTwanger said:

That's 1.057 with all grains and extract for 4 gallons. The OG for 5 gallons will be around 1.046.

Click to expand...

I guess the part that confused me, the statement in the BeerSmith software: "Estimated Pre-boil Gravity is: 1.057 SG with all grains/extracts added".

That is, I'm not adding the LME until the end of the boil, so when it states "Estimated Pre-boil Gravity is: 1.057 SG with all grains/extracts added", it makes me think it is calculating the 1.057 number before adding the LME.

TeleTwanger said:

Think of it this way you're getting around 1.030 for 4 gallons from the extract and 1.026 from the grain. Total is 1.057 for 4 gallons. The math is roughly 3.5lbs extract X 35points per lbs extract/4gallons =30 (1.030) + 4 lbs grain x35points per lbs of grain/4gallonsX75%efficiency=26 (1.026)now do the same equation but divide by 5gallons each time and you'll get your 1.046.

the formula (lbsXpoints/gallons) + (lbsXpoints/gallonsXefficiency)stays the same you just plug in different numbers such as
lme=35
dme=40
pale malt=35
crystal=24
roast barley=24
black malt=24
etc;
Just plug in your lbs of extract and gallons and do the same with grain but you include the efficiency variable. After you get a number such as 30 put 1.0 in front and you're done.

Click to expand...

Cool. I think I'm starting to see how this works.

Best,
John

talleymonster said:

damn....I can't find where I have it bookmarked.

But a reading taken at that temp will need to be adjusted. I don't know the formula for it. Perhaps somebody will chime in with it here.

Click to expand...

I'm getting ready to keg this dry stout. It was in Primary for 30 days and secondary for 18 days.

However, it looks like something is still going on in there. There are some pretty large bubbles on the top of the beer. See attached picture.

Could it still be fermenting? Contamination?

I'm getting ready to get a FG reading on it and will post back.

John

Well, I took an FG reading of 1.020 which with an OG of 1.055 puts the ABV at about 4.6%.

Its full bodied and is not quite the Dry Stout that I was going for, but actually tastes pretty good and is a nice drinkable beer. I'd say it taste more like an Extra Stout.

So, I'm going to keg this sucker and try again.

John