Diving into Water Chemistry for a Perfect Pale Ale

I have really been struggling to make what I consider a perfect pale ale (something along the lines of Red Chair NWPA, but a tad less bitter).

I've messed around with mash temperature and time, yeast, base malts, hop schedules, dry hopping, fermentation conditions, and even bought a Hop Rocket (which did actually help). My basic pale ale recipe is ~1.055 OG and I'm shooting for something with a reddish-orange color. What I wind up with is either brown (but not cloudy/hazy!) or yellow, despite many iterations of many crystal malts and I can't seem to get a crisp hop flavor without dragging along too much bitterness.

I have seen some discussion of water chemistry and mash pH playing a role in both color and a crisp hop flavor, so I'm thinking that is the next step for me.

I have a water report (from 2011, but I'm assuming it doesn't vary that much year-to-year) that lists the five sources of water that comprise our city water (see attached; mg/L = ppm). Flavor-wise my tap water is excellent--it is pumped directly from streams that are naturally filtered, so I'm lucky there.

Basically, I'm looking for input and suggestions in where to start. I've read so much contradictory information, that I don't even know where to begin... I have access to all kinds of laboratory equipment, so I can potentially do some more advanced testing if needed.

Any advice would be much appreciated!

I wouldn't depend on the water being consistent from 3 years ago. You might try to find a more recent report or email your water company and maybe they will give you more recent results (mine did). Or you can have it analyzed. In the States, Wards Labs will do it for <$30. But you can probably find someone local.

I would suggest downloading Bru'n Water and start using that for your water chemistry. There is a pale ale profile that is well liked from what I've seen and it ups the sulfate to 300 ppm, so you can see yours is much lower. It will also help you figure out how to get closer to the target mash pH of 5.4.

If the beers are coming out darker than expected, that is a classic sign of higher than desired mash pH. The higher pH does extract more color from the grist. The carbonate level does suggest that those waters could leave you with a higher than desired mash and kettle pH if you had not been neutralizing that carbonate with an acid addition. The other 'flavor' ions in those waters are modest. Adding more sulfate when brewing hoppy styles, is likely to be beneficial.

Some water sources can vary from week to week, so its worth finding out by speaking with your water company representatives if they think their water quality is variable or relatively constant. If its constant, then you might be able to use those old reports. Another thing you can do is use fish aquarium test kits to check the calcium and alkalinity levels in the tap water before each brew day. You would adjust your mash pH calculations based on the updated test kit results. That should improve the result.

My town has 6 wells. I had been using an average of the analysis for those wells until I realized that the water doesn't get mixed. It gets pumped into the mains from each well and flows from there. Depending on the water draws in various parts of town, I might get water from one well or another at any given time. Talking with a person from the water department, I figured out which wells are closest to my house and what the demands typically are in various parts of town. That let me determine that I should most often be getting water from one particular well (which, as it turns out, is also the one closest to my house). I now adjust based on that well's analysis.

One suggestion I received from the water department person is that I could test one parameter of my water (say hardness) that varies among the sources, using an aquarium test kit, and use that test as an indicator to determine which well I am receiving water from that day, then adjust for that well.

mtnagel said:

I wouldn't depend on the water being consistent from 3 years ago. You might try to find a more recent report or email your water company and maybe they will give you more recent results (mine did). Or you can have it analyzed. In the States, Wards Labs will do it for <$30. But you can probably find someone local.

I would suggest downloading Bru'n Water and start using that for your water chemistry. There is a pale ale profile that is well liked from what I've seen and it ups the sulfate to 300 ppm, so you can see yours is much lower. It will also help you figure out how to get closer to the target mash pH of 5.4.

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I found a more recent water report:

Chloride 40
Sulfate 17
Magnesium 4.9
Calcium 37.7
Sodium 19.6
Carbonate 96

pH 7.7


I forgot to mention that I started adding CaSO4 to my pale ale brews, but that was just based on the observation that Ca helped with clarity... it turns out that the amount I add (~10 g) brings my SO4 to ~300 ppm--totally by accident--and I definitely notice a positive impact on flavor. I will check out Bru'n Water for the complete pale ale water profile--thanks for the suggestion!

smyrnaquince said:

My town has 6 wells. I had been using an average of the analysis for those wells until I realized that the water doesn't get mixed. It gets pumped into the mains from each well and flows from there. Depending on the water draws in various parts of town, I might get water from one well or another at any given time. Talking with a person from the water department, I figured out which wells are closest to my house and what the demands typically are in various parts of town. That let me determine that I should most often be getting water from one particular well (which, as it turns out, is also the one closest to my house). I now adjust based on that well's analysis.

One suggestion I received from the water department person is that I could test one parameter of my water (say hardness) that varies among the sources, using an aquarium test kit, and use that test as an indicator to determine which well I am receiving water from that day, then adjust for that well.

Click to expand...

The one thing I didn't do before starting this thread was double check my water website... it turns out they added a search-by-zipcode feature that gives you your specific water source, hardness, etc. Now I can just check that site on brew day

mabrungard said:

If the beers are coming out darker than expected, that is a classic sign of higher than desired mash pH. The higher pH does extract more color from the grist. The carbonate level does suggest that those waters could leave you with a higher than desired mash and kettle pH if you had not been neutralizing that carbonate with an acid addition. The other 'flavor' ions in those waters are modest. Adding more sulfate when brewing hoppy styles, is likely to be beneficial.

Some water sources can vary from week to week, so its worth finding out by speaking with your water company representatives if they think their water quality is variable or relatively constant. If its constant, then you might be able to use those old reports. Another thing you can do is use fish aquarium test kits to check the calcium and alkalinity levels in the tap water before each brew day. You would adjust your mash pH calculations based on the updated test kit results. That should improve the result.

Click to expand...

Super, I'm happy to know that I have a "classic sign" of something wrong--it should be easy to fix!

I found out that my water company now has an "online pH sensor" that I can check through their website. It stays super close to 7.7 even as it varies from the source (of which they also report the pH) so I wonder if they buffer it?

I also found out that my "local" home brew supplier started selling Five Star 5.2 pH stabilizer, which I figure is a good place to start...? Or is better to adjust the pH "by hand" with bicarb or CaCO3 or whatever?

Just keep in mind that the water they test at the source is not necessarily the same as the water that comes out of your faucet. Pipes made of different materials can have an impact on various ion concentrations.

With respect to the "crisp" hop flavor and mild bitterness, you may also consider using a smaller charge of a clean bittering hop like magnum or warrrior, a bigger percentage of late-addition hops, and various strategies to get better attenuation.

zoyar said:

With respect to the "crisp" hop flavor and mild bitterness, you may also consider using a smaller charge of a clean bittering hop like magnum or warrrior, a bigger percentage of late-addition hops, and various strategies to get better attenuation.

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I usually bitter with Warrior at 60 min, do a 15 min addition of aroma hops (with the finings) and send the whole thing through a hop rocket to a plate chiller. When it hits the fermenter it smells strongly of fresh hops, but by the time I keg it there is hardly any nose (at least not compared to a hoppy micro).

I hadn't considered attenuation. I guess I've sort of locked into a grain bill/yeast that gives me the malt body I'm looking for. Next batch I'll try a lower mash temp and see what happens.

It's funny, I visited a friend in the US who recently started brewing and he makes one heck of a good hoppy ale, but for my taste it lacked body and the mouth feel was a tad thin. It's actually what spurred me to get back to trying to crack the pale ale mystery... his second-ever AG brew was all crisp, clean hop flavor. A bunch of new hops also just landed at my brew supplier--Citra, Mosaic, Palisade, Liberty, etc.--thus far I've been restricted to German/UK hops, Cascade and, if I'm lucky, Amarillo and Simcoe.

My friend struggles with stouts and porters, while I struggle with pale ales--my stouts and porters are dynamite. We were wondering if it was a difference in our process, or if the base malts were making all the difference. I don't have access to American 2-row, for obvious reasons, so I tend to brew with Weyermann pale, Maris Otter, Golden Promise, and Belgian Pils. But the few Belgian styles I have brewed have been spot-on

ChiechiBrouw said:

I also found out that my "local" home brew supplier started selling Five Star 5.2 pH stabilizer, which I figure is a good place to start...? Or is better to adjust the pH "by hand" with bicarb or CaCO3 or whatever?

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You won't find much love for Five Star 5.2 pH on here. When it works it works, but when it doesn't it doesn't and you won't know if you aren't measuring. It's much better to control pH through other means.

Off the top of my head, I think the most people try to keep their sulfate level well below 300ppm, unless the beer is crazy hoppy. At 350ppm most people can pick up sulfur taste/aroma. I'd say 150ppm sulfate at most, bru 'n water recommends around 75 for a balanced yellow. Too much calcium can affect the taste too.

Next, take a look at the pH, 7.7 will probably require a pretty substantial adjustment (depending on the bicarbonate levels). The problem is exasperated by the fact that it's a pale ale, dark malts can help acidify the mash, but pale malts don't give you much. I'd use bru 'n water give you an idea of how much acid malt to use. A rough guess from me would be about 6 to 8 oz for an 11lb grain bill.

You're sparge water should have a pH around 5.5 to 5.7 to avoid extracting extra color and tannins. So a little lactic acid might help there. Just guessing again, but maybe a half mL of lactic acid per gallon of sparge water.

Don't waste your money on 5.2, it'll probably add way too many salts to your pale ale.

Personally on my pale's I do a small hop addition in the beginning, then save all the others for 5 mins and less in the boil. A lot go in at flame out and get whirlpooled. Personally I think it did great things for my beer.

After reading the advice from you-all and doing some background reading, I've decided to use Bru'n Water to adjust my mash/sparge pH and to pay closer attention to the sulfate concentration. Apparently the 5.2 stabilizer stuff doesn't work well, so I got some phosphoric and lactic acids and a pH meter... next time I will try to keep a pH of 5.2 in the mash and follow Bru'n Water's advice for the sparge water.

Thanks for your help!

ChiechiBrouw said:

My friend struggles with stouts and porters, while I struggle with pale ales--my stouts and porters are dynamite.

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This is a CLASSIC indication of different water profiles and their impact on the final product.

Did you ever wonder why Ireland is famous for their stouts and Pilsen is famous for their pale beers? It's all about water chemistry.

You're on the right track. Bru N water will help get you there.

LovesIPA said:

This is a CLASSIC indication of different water profiles and their impact on the final product.

Did you ever wonder why Ireland is famous for their stouts and Pilsen is famous for their pale beers? It's all about water chemistry.

You're on the right track. Bru N water will help get you there.

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Good to know! I visited the St. James's Gate Brewery last year and the Guinness really was better than the stuff brewed on contract.

Just out of curiosity I compared my water profile to Dublin, and it's actually pretty similar. But it is very different from the profile where my friend lives (at least according to Beersmith).

Of course I've heard the stories of water chemistry defining some of the more famous beer regions, but honestly I've always thought it was exaggerated, like so many myths about regions in France that produce whatever cheese/mustard/wine/pastry/etc.

ChiechiBrouw said:

Just out of curiosity I compared my water profile to Dublin, and it's actually pretty similar. But it is very different from the profile where my friend lives (at least according to Beersmith).

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Be careful! Dublin water quality varies widely across the city. There are places with very low alkalinity water that is only a few notches from Pilsen water quality. That is the water that used to be used at St James Gate. Now, Guinness uses RO water like many other big brewers.

You can read more about Irish water in the Nov/Dec 2013 issue of Zymurgy magazine. AHA membership has value!

I got myself a good pH meter and some phosphoric acid and brewed up an IPA with 100% Mosaic hops. It's currently on tap and it's delicious! The bitterness so perfectly balances the sweetness that neither is perceptible, yet it has a fresh hop nose and drinking it is like sucking on hop cones.

There is one thing that I can't figure out though. Bru'n Water told me to add ~4 mL of phosphoric acid to both the sparge and the mash water. That much acid dropped the pH to 3.5, well below my target of 5.3. However, the malts seemed to buffer the mash around 5.8 or so and I ended up having to add a lot more acid to get it down to 5.3. In fact, I wound up with the exact total volume that Bru'n Water suggested.

What I don't get is the sparge water. Is the target pH for the hot liquor tank (before adding it to the mash tun), or is the target pH for the runnings? If it is the former, then Bru'n Water was off by two pH units for the sparge, but dead-on for the mash. If it is the latter, then Bru'n Water would have been correct for both, so I suspect it is the latter.

Thanks in advance, and thanks for all the advice so far... I'm really excited to be able to brew hoppy beers the way they should taste!

PS here is the recipe, if anyone is curious:

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
5.30 kg Pale Malt, Maris Otter (Thomas Fawcett) Grain 1 92.2 %
0.45 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 2 7.8 %
28.00 g Mosaic [13.90 %] - Fermenter Hop 3 0.0 IBUs
24.00 g Mosaic [13.90 %] - Boil 75.0 min Hop 4 41.7 IBUs
20.00 g Mosaic [13.90 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 5 23.3 IBUs
1.00 Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining 6 -
28.00 g Mosaic [13.90 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 0.0 Hop 7 0.0 IBUs
1.0 pkg Safale American (DCL/Fermentis #US-05)Yeast 8 -

I was supposed to dry hop with another 50 g, but I only had 100 g of hops

90 Min boil, batch sparge, one week in primary, two in secondary. OG ~ 1.065, IBU ~ 65

In my opinion, sparging water treatment is less about pH and more about its alkalinity. Sparging water should be brought to a relatively low alkalinity of around 25 ppm as CaCO3 to reduce the chance of tannin and silicate extraction and also avoid raising the pH of the kettle wort.

A very low mashing water pH is not a surprise if it was treated to mash a pale grist. The definition of zero alkalinity is the amount of acid needed to bring water to a pH typically between 4.3 and 4.5. In the case of a pale grist, the RA is a negative value. Assuming that you aren't adding a bunch of calcium or magnesium salts to the water, that means that the alkalinity would have to be negative in order to produce a negative RA.

Thanks for the answer, but I don't think I asked my question clearly...

I don't like using total alkalinity and carbonate concentration interchangeably because it assumes that you are starting with natural water and I've seen a lot of confusion on this forum between carbonate, alkalinity, and pH, particularly when RO or bottled water is in play.

In my case, my water is near pH 7, but has a high total alkalinity so I have to add a lot of acid to get the projected carbonate concentration to a reasonable level. The mash buffers itself at a pH > 5.5 so I have to add even more acid to get the pH to the target value of 5.3.

The reasoning here (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong) is that low carbonate helps mitigate tannin extraction, but the principle bitter flavor of tannins comes from polyphenols and phenols (polyphenols) becoming more soluble at high pH (because the pKa of phenol is ~9). There may be other specific effects that carbonate (or total alkalinity) has on tannin extraction, but the principle reason for low pH in the mash wrt tannins is to reduce polyphenol extraction. (And then there is the whole chill haze vs. tannin flavor polyphenol thing...)

The effect that I think is most important to me, however, is that low pH helps with the isomerization of alpha acids, leading to a "cleaner" bitterness, which helps the fresh hop flavors from late additions/dry-hopping come through (i.e., it avoids the "flabby" hop flavor I was experiencing).

My question concerns the sparge water. Brun' Water wants me to add roughly the same amount of acid to both the sparge and the mash water to neutralize the carbonate. That addition brings the pH down to ~3.5, which is OK for the mash because the grains buffer it. However, I'm a bit nervous about sparging with water at pH 3.5.

Will the grain bed continue buffering the sparge water? In other words, if I use virtually the same water treatment in both the sparge and the mash, will my runnings wind up near the target pH? That is the source of my confusion: is Brun' Water telling be what to add to get the runnings to the target pH or the sparge water? Or should I only be focused on dropping the alkalinity (i.e., the buffering ability) of the sparge water? The possible bad outcomes are i) dumping a bunch of carbonate (from the sparge water) back into the kettle and undoing the mash treatment or ii) acidifying the wort to the point that it affects the flavor/fermentation negatively (with acidic sparge water).

My instincts are that adding sparge water at pH 5.5 to a mash at pH 5.3 will keep the pH close to 5.4, but there is the huge variable of the grain bed in that equation. Also, if that is the case, then why is Brun' Water off by two pH units for the sparge water, but dead-on for the mash?

Sorry for the wordy post, but I want to get the water chemistry right and searching the forums ends up in an infinite loop of conflating carbonate, alkalinity, buffering, and pH.

In typical water, alkalinity and carbonate are interchangeable. However, there are conversions required. In addition, at typical potable water pH, carbonate is not the predominant species present. Reviewing the 3-phase speciation of the carbonate ion, shows that the water pH would have to be higher than 10.33 for the carbonate ion to be the predominant ion in solution. For more typical potable water pHs, bicarbonate ion will be the predominant form of the carbonate species.

I'm unsure how you are using Bru'n Water to have it tell you to add roughly similar amounts of acid to both mashing and sparging liquors. In the case of sparging water acidification, the goal is reducing that water's alkalinity to relatively low range (say 0 to 50 ppm as CaCO3). Since the definition of alkalinity includes an end-point pH of around 4.3 to 4.5, proper acidification to zero alkalinity sparging water should produce a measurable pH of around 4.3 to 4.5. Producing a pH of 3.5 in sparging water means that you have reduced that water's alkalinity to well less than zero. It appears that you have miss-entered or miss-used the program. A properly acidified sparging water with a resultant low alkalinity is likely to have a pH in the range of 5.2 to 5.8. The actual value will be dependent upon the starting alkalinity of the water.

While the buffering capacity of the grain bed is substantial, using an over acidified sparging water is likely to exhaust that buffering and send the pH of the entire wort volume downward. Proper use of the sparging water acidification calculator will avoid this problem. Please revisit the instructions and inputs before using that water.

I realize that carbonate/bicarbonate is the most predominate base at any alkaline pH in most drinking water (the pronation state is not consequential). Still, I don't conflating alkalinity, pH, and carbonate because they are distinct and have different effects/meanings. In fact, pH nicely summarizes all of the relevant variables if you remember your freshman General Chemistry (and I haven't yet had enough beer to forget that!)

Anyway, I see the problem. My water report comprises two separate spreadsheets, one from "surface water" and one from "ground water." The biggest difference in the two, by far, is the mean bicarbonate concentration, which differs by a factor of four. Since it is not at all clear when they take water from the surface or the ground, there is no way to know what is coming out of the tap without measuring it. Next time I will take one of the lower numbers, and I bet Brun' Water will be spot-on for the sparge and the mash.

Thanks for the help--I'll check in again after my next brew day

If you have this potential for the water source to vary, I suggest getting an aquarium test kit for alkalinity and using it before every brew day. That way you will be able to refine the alkalinity or bicarbonate value that is used in your calculations.