my long awaited build, and a question

hi, so some time ago i mentioned that i was building an electric brewery. i actually started about 6 months ago, but life as it is, progress is slow, and i am still not done, but i'm a lot closer.
a quick rundown of the system.
2. 11gallon pots, one 10 gallon cooler/mash/lauter tun
pid controllers for hlt and boil, all on a nice rolling stand.

hlt and kettle

power test (4500w in 3750w out)

brewstand in raw form

brewstand assembled, with hlt, mash and kettle

cut out the top cross rail to make it easier to get the mash tun out for cleaning. there's a shelf that goes on the top over the mash tun space to hold the kettle for draining into the fermenter. i am also planning on putting a drawer on the lower right. i also plan on building a little step to pull the kettle on, so that i can slide the kettle out so i can use my immersion cooler, and it will double as a step so i can get a better view into my hlt.

i have two questions, first: i need to paint it, what should i use? the kettle is on the bottom, so the paint will be exposed to steam, i need something pretty durable and water/steam resistant. question two: where do i put my controller. it was originally going to be mounted to the rail in front of the mash tun, but since i took that away, i don't have a place for it anymore. the left side i think is out since my control box will not be waterproof, and that's the side where my pots are.
thoughts?
thanks.

Looks really nice, this is very close to what I hope to build soon, especially the stand.

I haven't been in the electric brewing scene for long, but I know that your plugs should definitely *not* be female on the kettle side. This means you are plugging in a live male plug with more than enough juice to fry yourself good. All of the proper builds I've seen have male kettle side plugs that are recessed.

yeah, what i did was made it female on both ends. the original plan was to keep the cords with the kettles, but i figured that wouldn't work well, so i made it this way

anyway, i'm really looking for some input on the paint issue, and the control box issue. anyone? bueller?

well i chose rustoleum automotive primer and paint. i borrowed a friend's portable media blaster, and cleaned the frame as best i could. so here's the frame painted, and assembled in the 2 configurations that i plan on using it. i still have to build the controller, i plan on starting that tonight after the kids go to bed.

warthog said:

yeah, what i did was made it female on both ends. the original plan was to keep the cords with the kettles, but i figured that wouldn't work well, so i made it this way

Click to expand...

I've not built my e-kettle yet so I cannot speak with authority, but this looks like a dangerous situation. So you have female at your kettle, female at your controller, and you use a cord that is male on both ends?

I'm not an electrician, but I would strongly advise against this. So long as you follow a checklist much like that of an airplane pilot and follow it 100% of the time, you'll be OK - IOW, (1) make sure power to controller is completely OFF, (2) plug the male cord into the kettle first, (3) plug the male cord into the controller. The object is to NEVER unplug the cord from the kettle until you have verified that it is unplugged from the power source first.

If you get anything out of order - or, worse yet, if a young helper isn't fully aware of the protocol - and you unplug the cord from the kettle and it happens to have power going to it, you will have 220VAC right there in the open.

Please take the time to correct this design. Again, I'm not being critical of your work, it's just that it will require a great deal of vigilance on your part to remain safe.

Respectfully,
Keith

thank you for the concern about my safety.

here's the deal: a male receptacle + mating female plug end combo costs ~$80 per set. times 2 kettles, that's more money that i've got. this whole rig is built from spares, scrap and cast-offs, involving lots of dumpster diving, and barter (i have promised a lot of future beer for some of the pricier components). i think my total cash outlay is around $60. the kettles were a christmas gift from my folks.

regarding the safety of the system. yes, there is the possibility of shorting one of the hot legs to the frame or to me, or my assistant. i will be installing a big emo button (salvaged from a bin at work), that will kill the system prior to pulling plugs. i know its not ideal, but its the best i can do.

bye guys

People have pointed out that your build has serious safety issues, and you storm off? Wiring a male pig-tail out of your heating element boxes is not expensive, and could save your (or someone else's) life.

I don't blame anyone for pointing out the safety concerns here. If the subject was not brought up, others might review this thread and decide to build the same way, not knowing of the serious potential for coming into contact with deadly voltage. I don't see how you can get upset with people trying to save others from serious injury or death.

my problem comes when someone posted an inflammatory remark. which one of your fellow moderators edited (thanks btw). however, now this guy who posted the edited remark, now appears to be the epitome of grace, and i look like a moron. i'm done sorry. feel free to delete the whole thing

warthog said:

my problem comes when someone posted an inflammatory remark. which one of your fellow moderators edited (thanks btw). however, now this guy who posted the edited remark, now appears to be the epitome of grace, and i look like a moron. i'm done sorry. feel free to delete the whole thing

Click to expand...

Why didn't you just use the report post button?

Sharing your build here WILL get you some awesome advice and other valuable input.

warthog said:

my problem comes when someone posted an inflammatory remark. which one of your fellow moderators edited (thanks btw). however, now this guy who posted the edited remark, now appears to be the epitome of grace, and i look like a moron. i'm done sorry. feel free to delete the whole thing

Click to expand...

I don't see where the edit was. Usually a mod will comment where he made changes and remind people to play nice.

If you care to check back, I'm sure someone will come along with some answers to your questions now that the warnings on the dangerous wiring has been well covered.

We all know how hard it can be to put one of these things together. It would be a shame to not get the help you need right near the end of the project.

Homercidal said:

I don't see where the edit was. Usually a mod will comment where he made changes and remind people to play nice.

...

Click to expand...

It was edited in post #8 by:

(Last edited by Pappers_; Today at 01:45 PM. Reason: deleted insult )

Homercidal said:

I don't see where the edit was. Usually a mod will comment where he made changes and remind people to play nice.

Click to expand...

It appears that Post #8 had originally contained an insult which was edited out by someone other than the poster.

Warthog, I would suggest hanging around. There are a lot of helpful people on the forums, so I wouldn't let one insult drive you away.

As jeffmeh suggested, simply hard-wiring a typical 220V cord out of the box at the kettle with a male plug on the other end would serve the purpose very nicely. The issue in your design has come up on a couple other threads in the past, and folks, at that time, strongly urged the builder to alter the design.

I think it's been well documented that the plugs and receptacles for the elements do not need to be the expensive twist-lock ones. I had planned on simply using the same sort of plug/receptacle one would use for an electric dryer.

Respectfully,
Keith

BTW, the insult had been edited out by the time I got back to the forum, so I don't see how anyone could consider you a moron. There's certainly nothing graceful about what remains of posting #8.

Warthog, fwiw, I planned the heck out of my rig with much help from people on this board and I just realized today thatI did the exact same thing you did but in a different spot. It was my oversight. These things get tricky for some of us and mistakes happen. I know its costly to buy parts over again, but your safety is worth it. And for the most part, the people posting on HBT, especially in this thread, are just trying to help. Keep at it, make it safe and write off the non safety related comments as you see fit.

P-J said:

Well - In my opinion your behavoir is just one of the reasons that I no longer post circuit plans.

Click to expand...

You don't? That's unfortunate... I was really hoping to get a little help from you.

Oh well, thanks for the help you've already given to this community. I guess I'll just have to try modifying one of your BCS plans on my own, so you have my gratitude either way.

ok, i've calmed down a bit, relaxed had a homebrew (or 2 ).
i was aware of the potential (sorry for the pun) danger of having hot male pins. however, because of how the system works, it would cost me waaaay too much to do it differently. i took a few steps to reduce the risk but by all means, it is not idiot proof.

i am an engineer, i have a drawer full of degrees (none of them electrical), i work for a startup (and have lost my shirt doing so). the company does very high precision temperature control (+/- 0.005 C). i am the only engineer, so i have to do it all, though admittedly ee is my weak point. i may know a thing or two about what i am doing. my primary concern with this build is that it doesn't burn itself up and cause a fire. i think i have achieved that goal. safety is always a concern, but so is budget. so i am building the safest system that i can build and still afford.

i also have 3 children, one of them is autistic, and that is an emotional roller-coaster i don't wish on anyone. if i was a bit bitchy earlier i apologize.

someone pointed out that i could just hang dryer cords off the kettles, and i could, except that the boil kettle needs to move from its position on the bottom shelf, up to the top to drain into my fermenter. i also need to be able to move the pots to my sink to wash them, and dragging a cord around is not a good plan (in my opinion)

i'll have a big yellow and red button to smack to cut power to the output side before unplugging anything, but the boil kettle doesn't move until the process is complete, so i really see that as an added safety measure.

Hey, this is by no means personal, but I really question your judgment on this one, particularly that a hot male plug would be safer than having a short (say 6 inch or even less) male pigtail coming off the electrical box mounted to the kettle. That should not be an expensive modification, and I would say it is worth every penny in terms of safety.

i really don't want to keep readdressing this issue. having a pigtail will not help. i still need the expensive male to female free hanging plug and socket connection. it just moves the problem 6 inches.

warthog said:

someone pointed out that i could just hang dryer cords off the kettles, and i could, except that the boil kettle needs to move from its position on the bottom shelf, up to the top to drain into my fermenter. i also need to be able to move the pots to my sink to wash them, and dragging a cord around is not a good plan (in my opinion)

Click to expand...

warthog said:

i really don't want to keep readdressing this issue. having a pigtail will not help. i still need the expensive male to female free hanging plug and socket connection. it just moves the problem 6 inches.

Click to expand...

Warthog, you do bring up a legitimate question that hadn't occurred to me - until you brought it up. I've been meaning to ask folks about how often they remove their elements from their e-kettles (as well as other fittings) for cleaning. I'm not convinced that a 6-8 ft cord attached to the kettle would be terribly difficult to work around in moving your kettle to a higher shelf. But I hadn't really thought about taking my kettle with the attached cord over to the sink to clean it.

"My" question is how are you guys cleaning your e-kettles - especially those who have long cords attached to them? I'm specifically asking of you who are using electrified kettles. Are you performing a sort of "manual" clean-in-place in which you clean your kettle at your bench and drain it thru the ball valve into a bucket?

Additionally, in no way attempting to patronize warthog since he's been a member of HBT for much longer than I, I would also appreciate seeing the specific male/female connection combinations y'all would suggest that he use.

Respectfully,
Keith

warthog said:

i really don't want to keep readdressing this issue. having a pigtail will not help. i still need the expensive male to female free hanging plug and socket connection. it just moves the problem 6 inches.

Click to expand...

OK, but I am missing the expensive part.

NEMA L6-30P - less than $10 - http://www.ebay.com/itm/Replacement...371?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c319c93fb

NEMA L6-30R (mis-labeled) - less than $10 - http://www.ebay.com/itm/Replacement...776?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19ddd5e468

I will leave it up to you.

jeffmeh said:

OK, but I am missing the expensive part.

NEMA L6-30P - less than $10 - http://www.ebay.com/itm/Replacement...371?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c319c93fb

NEMA L6-30R (mis-labeled) - less than $10 - http://www.ebay.com/itm/Replacement...776?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19ddd5e468

I will leave it up to you.

Click to expand...

awesome! I had been looking for something like that. but for whatever reason i didn't find it (well actually i did find it, but the plugs were $25 and the receptacles were $21 each- too much) . i'd still really like to do it without the hanging cord at all, but i agree this is better.

as for cleaning, i have a big sink in my basement (next to the washing machine). i made a little hose and sprayer attachment that sits in the basin and sprays up. i plan on giving the kettles a quick hosing out (after the elements have cooled), then power washing with my vertical sprayer, then soaking in sanitizer before putting it away. then re-sanitize and rinse before brewing.

warthog said:

awesome! I had been looking for something like that. but for whatever reason i didn't find it (well actually i did find it, but the plugs were $25 and the receptacles were $21 each- too much) . i'd still really like to do it without the hanging cord at all, but i agree this is better.

as for cleaning, i have a big sink in my basement (next to the washing machine). i made a little hose and sprayer attachment that sits in the basin and sprays up. i plan on giving the kettles a quick hosing out (after the elements have cooled), then power washing with my vertical sprayer, then soaking in sanitizer before putting it away. then re-sanitize and rinse before brewing.

Click to expand...

Glad I could help.

If you really want to avoid the pigtail, another fairly inexpensive option can be found at https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/switchcrafts-plug-outlet-option-369044/

i couldn't find the switchcraft number on amazon (my brother gave me a gift card there), there were similar things with different numbers but no specs. do you know if i can get those things at homedepot? i have a friend who works there, and can buy at a discount (and trade me for beer)

warthog said:

i couldn't find the switchcraft number on amazon (my brother gave me a gift card there), there were similar things with different numbers but no specs. do you know if i can get those things at homedepot? i have a friend who works there, and can buy at a discount (and trade me for beer)

Click to expand...

I have only seen them online. mouser.com has them for a decent price.

hmmm not so good, that would mean bribing purchasing, again.....

ok, so let's assume i'll get that solved.

where do i put the damn control box. its 8" x 8" x4". it was originally going to be mounted to the cross brace that i removed for better mash tun access. i hoped to make the whole rig self contained, but i can't figure out a good place for it anymore. i don't want to put it above the boil kettle, since the box is not really water/steam proof. that leaves the right side, but i don't have much room. my son suggested a separate stand. i could make it sort of a desk, so that i can also put my brewing notebook on it. but then i have wires, 3 power cords (1 in,2 out), and my temperature probe wires. if i position these things wrong (i don't have much space where i'm brewing, i need the wheels) i might end up pulling stuff off the shelves, or tripping on cabling. any thoughts?

I found a cheap tv mount that I used. It's folds up against the stand when not in use and swings out when I want to brew. I got it on eBay and was like $25.

Also, as an option for the cords, even though I'm sure you're tired of it, over time you can slowly adjust it. But the thing I would like to do is add a plug to the stand so that I could have like a 2 ft dongle on it that would plug into the stand and the stand would plug into the panel. I know that would be more money that you don't want to spend. However you could leave it as you have it and fix it when you can.

Your build looks good a i hope you enjoy electric brewing like the rest of us do

i have some scrap melamine left, and a partial stick of 1x angle. and if i need to i can raid the scrap steel bin at work. i can probably make something that mounts to the side and swings out. that means scraping the paint off, and tacking it on, then touching up the paint. not the end of the world, but i'm out of primer
maybe i can make it bolt on....

So how do you intend on buying grain, hops, yeast, etc?????? Seems like you are scrounging to get all the stuff to make a system. Ingredients can be just as expensive

i do scrounge for a lot of stuff. i have a hop garden, and i keep my yeast as long as i can. my neighbor is a big home brewer too, so we've buy base grain together for savings, then its just a few lbs of specialty grain. my typical brew costs me less than 0.50 a glass (full up, cost of energy sanitizer etc, just not my time). i save tons of $$ over buying brew at the store.