Witbier dropping clear.....

Looking for suggestions on keeping my witbier cloudy. I brewed my witbier for this years NHC which has done well in competition in the past but I have had trouble keeping it cloudy. This batch I did a step mash at 120ish in hopes of keeping it cloudy per the style. But, alas, yesterday I poured a pint from the keg and it had dropped clear. I'm assuming the bottles sitting in San Diego right now have probably dropped clear as well. (Maybe they will turn the bottles upside down before judging?) Any suggestions on keeping wits cloudy? I've heard adding a tablespoon of wheat flour at knockout may help? I've also heard that commercial brewers will deliver their wit kegs upside down to keep their beers cloudy so I'm guessing this is a common problem???

I don't know your recipe, but I did a saison with 1.5lb unmalted wheat which is very cloudy and doesn't look like it will clear up all that much. Also, why are you step mashing with malted grains? I think that would defeat the purpose and make it more clear with possibly less foam.

I've heard that you can add a little bit of regular flour into the beer at bottling / kegging to give it some cloudiness, if you're worried about that kinda thing.

When you add unmalted wheat to your mash, the diastatic power of your pale malt is such that it converts the starches to sugar. It's the starch that makes wit beers cloudy so when you get it all converted, your beer will clear. You need to add starch after the enzymes are denatured so it stays starch and won't drop clear. Flour in the fermenter should do the trick.

RM-MN said:

When you add unmalted wheat to your mash, the diastatic power of your pale malt is such that it converts the starches to sugar. It's the starch that makes wit beers cloudy so when you get it all converted, your beer will clear. You need to add starch after the enzymes are denatured so it stays starch and won't drop clear. Flour in the fermenter should do the trick.

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I get that, but if you added a large portion of unmalted/not well modified grains, would it take longer to do all that and if you keep your mashing time like normal you still end up with "flour" in your fermenter without having to add it after? I also understand I'm talking to someone who does 20 minuted mashes:rockin:

Weizen/wit is not typically a kegged beer, that is a recent development.

It is bottle conditioned, when the bottle settles you shake it up. Give you kegs a lift and a kick before serving, they'll be fine.

mbobhat said:

I get that, but if you added a large portion of unmalted/not well modified grains, would it take longer to do all that and if you keep your mashing time like normal you still end up with "flour" in your fermenter without having to add it after? I also understand I'm talking to someone who does 20 minuted mashes:rockin:

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If your base malts have the diastatic power to convert the unmalted wheat it will do so in the same amount of time as the base malt. If your base malt doesn't have enough diastatic power, you should end up with starch left.

Who does 20 minute mashed? Not me!

I'm doing 10 minute mashes now.

RM-MN said:

If your base malts have the diastatic power to convert the unmalted wheat it will do so in the same amount of time as the base malt. If your base malt doesn't have enough diastatic power, you should end up with starch left.

Who does 20 minute mashed? Not me!

I'm doing 10 minute mashes now.

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Ok you've convinced me of the starches converting (actually I hit all my numbers gravity wise so that makes sense), but as far as cloudyness I would have to beg the question. I mean with the partly malted grain that's why they do a protein rest yes? Since the grain didn't have a chance to "make" enzymes in the malting process, wouldn't there be a whole bunch of just let me say "raw" protein in the unmalted grain? Does this make it cloudy?

Don't say the answer is 42!

mbobhat said:

Ok you've convinced me of the starches converting (actually I hit all my numbers gravity wise so that makes sense), but as far as cloudyness I would have to beg the question. I mean with the partly malted grain that's why they do a protein rest yes? Since the grain didn't have a chance to "make" enzymes in the malting process, wouldn't there be a whole bunch of just let me say "raw" protein in the unmalted grain? Does this make it cloudy?

Don't say the answer is 42!

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This is why they used to do the protein rest but nowadays the malts are so well modified that there is little need for a protein rest. You may find some European malts that are undermodified and would benefit from the protein rest.

DOH! I had read somewhere that doing a quick (15 min) rest at 124 on the recipe which contained modified wheat would help it maintain cloudiness. It was sloppy of me not to research this more and I should have just gone with my first gut instinct which was to add the flour. The good news is that the beer tastes fantastic. The bad news however, is that I know at the first round NHC it will be knocked down against the style guidelines as it is as clear as a Pale Ale.

Use flaked wheat. I use 40-50% flaked wheat in the Belgian Wit I make each spring. I'm actually brewing it this weekend. Even in a keg, it takes months before it starts to clear.

The flaked wheat also lends a lot more "wheat" flavor to the beer and is more true to style compared to using malted wheat. Just an FYI.

If you're making wit for competitions then bottle it straight off the bat.

dobe12 said:

Use flaked wheat. I use 40-50% flaked wheat in the Belgian Wit I make each spring. I'm actually brewing it this weekend. Even in a keg, it takes months before it starts to clear.



The flaked wheat also lends a lot more "wheat" flavor to the beer and is more true to style compared to using malted wheat. Just an FYI.

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Are you doing a protein rest and/or cereal mash with the flaked wheat, or just a single infusion mash? I'm working on my first wit recipe, with 41% flaked wheat, and have seen recommendations to do all three from different sources... Just wondering if the extra step(s) of the cereal mash decoction or protein rest are necessary and/or helpful. Thanks...


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FatsSchindee said:

Are you doing a protein rest and/or cereal mash with the flaked wheat, or just a single infusion mash? I'm working on my first wit recipe, with 41% flaked wheat, and have seen recommendations to do all three from different sources... Just wondering if the extra step(s) of the cereal mash decoration or protein rest are necessary and/or helpful. Thanks...


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Single infusion is fine. You do NOT need to cereal mash flaked wheat. If using that much you do need to use a base malt with high diastatic power since flaked grains have none. But no, flaked grains do not need to be cereal mashed to convert. They just need help from base malts.

I just brewed my Belgian Wit yesterday and did a step mash. 9lbs of Pale, 7.5lbs of flaked wheat, 1.5lbs flaked oats. 60min mash at 147F, 15min at 156F, 10min batch sparge at 168F. Was shooting for an OG of 1.049 and hit 1.050. No cereal mash, no protein rest.

I BIAB so stuck mash/sparges aren't an issue. If you use a more traditional system (cooler, rig, etc), make sure you use a lot of rice hulls. Wheat will slow your runoff down tremendously.

Too late now, but next time you can give instructions to roll the bottle before pouring in the comments. Haze stability is complicated. Stan Heironymous's Brewin with Wheat is a good resource.

TNGabe said:

Too late now, but next time you can give instructions to roll the bottle before pouring in the comments. Haze stability is complicated. Stan Heironymous's Brewin with Wheat is a good resource.

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Yep +1 to this, only fresh bottled weizen and wit have suspended solids. You roll the bottle with some dregs in to get the cloudiness.

dobe12 said:

Single infusion is fine. You do NOT need to cereal mash flaked wheat. If using that much you do need to use a base malt with high diastatic power since flaked grains have none. But no, flaked grains do not need to be cereal mashed to convert. They just need help from base malts.



I just brewed my Belgian Wit yesterday and did a step mash. 9lbs of Pale, 7.5lbs of flaked wheat, 1.5lbs flaked oats. 60min mash at 147F, 15min at 156F, 10min batch sparge at 168F. Was shooting for an OG of 1.049 and hit 1.050. No cereal mash, no protein rest.



I BIAB so stuck mash/sparges aren't an issue. If you use a more traditional system (cooler, rig, etc), make sure you use a lot of rice hulls. Wheat will slow your runoff down tremendously.

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Thanks - good to hear the single infusion will work fine. I BIAB too, so not worried about a stuck sparge either. Here's my grain bill:

Flaked wheat 41%
Belgian Pilsener 27%
6-row 18%
Flaked oats 7%
Munich (light) 5%
Acid malt 2%

I added the 6-row for the extra diastatic power to help convert the unmalted wheat and oats... Do you think that's necessary? Or do you think 45% (I'd change it back to more Pilsener) Belgian Pilsener would be enough to get the job done?

Thanks... Looking forward to making my first Wit, just don't want to screw it up!




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FatsSchindee said:

I added the 6-row for the extra diastatic power to help convert the unmalted wheat and oats... Do you think that's necessary? Or do you think 45% (I'd change it back to more Pilsener) Belgian Pilsener would be enough to get the job done?

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I searched around and figured out the answer to this, I think. Based off a link I found to a beersmith article about calculating total diastatic power for a grist...

http://beersmith.com/blog/2010/01/04/diastatic-power-and-mashing-your-beer/

...it looks as though with the 6-row included, I'd have an average of 65 degrees Lintner for the whole grist. If I change that amount of 6-row to Belgian Pilsener (it didn't show the value for Belgian Pilsener malt, but I just assumed it would be pretty similar to German Pilsener malt and used that value), it would still have an average of 56. It says that a minimum of 30 degrees Lintner is needed to get full conversion... So I should be good to go either way! I'm going to go ahead and sub out the 6-row for Belgian Pilsener, as I think this would make for a more authentic and tasty Wit...



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DO NOT throw raw flour into your fermenter. It is LOADED with microorganisms.

However, if you throw some plain wheat flour in during the last few minutes of boil (1-2T per 5G) you should get the desired effect. Obviously don't use things like irish moss or whirlfloc either.