Why not pulverize your grain?

If we are trying to extract the sugars etc. from the grains, why not mill everything to a large sand (not quite flour). The "milled grains" I've encountered store bought look like only MOST have been cracked and could probably use another run through the mill. Why aren't grains broken down further??

Thank you!

stuck sparges, BIAB people mill it down that fine.

Cuz you need enough pieces to make a filter bed to keep husk material out of brew kettle.

poptarts said:

stuck sparges, BIAB people mill it down that fine.

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This may be slightly , but I've never thought about this before - If you are doing BIAB (like I do), why not go for a much finer grind? Interesting...

poptarts said:

stuck sparges, BIAB people mill it down that fine.

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Excellent! I plan to BIAB!

rekoob said:

Cuz you need enough pieces to make a filter bed to keep husk material out of brew kettle.

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I assume you are talking about a bed to prevent these from clogging?:

loeks said:

This may be slightly , but I've never thought about this before - If you are doing BIAB (like I do), why not go for a much finer grind? Interesting...

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I like where this is going...

I guess if you BIAB, you only have to beat the mesh size of your bags :cross:

Inspired!

does the possibility of dough balls increase as your mill finer?

I thought there could be issues with tannins being extracted as well.

Doctor_M said:

I thought there could be issues with tannins being extracted as well.

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Nope - tannins only get extracted when the pH is too high (above 6?) to my knowledge.

I recirc (RIMS) and crush at 0.28mm, which people gasp at when they hear, but there's still a lot of fluffy husk material for lautering in the mash as a result of conditioning the grain. I've been using rice hulls as a protective measure since I started going that fine, but the only time I had any flow issues was when we seemed to get the bottom of a bag of specialty grains (chocolate malt) and as a result we had a lot of shake in our grain bag. Could possibly get away with no rice hulls generally...

MNDan said:

Nope - tannins only get extracted when the pH is too high (above 6?) to my knowledge.

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Tannins can be the result of milling too fine

Well, the way i see it is that if you buy milled grains or mill it at the LHBS then its not going to be the best crush. They arent trying to maximize your effeciency, they are trying to maximize their profits. you having a low eff = buying more grains which adds to their profits. Get your own mill and crush as fine as you want.

pstrohs said:

Tannins can be the result of milling too fine

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No, tannins are only released with too high of a pH. If that were not the case, all my beers would taste like tea because I mill as fine as I can with my Corona style mill. The added benefits of milling the grains fine is faster conversion and higher efficiency. I've come to expect 85% efficiency and conversion in under 10 minutes. That's quite a difference from the 60 to 90 minute mashes that most all grain brewers do and a bit higher efficiency than most report.

Tannins from milling too fine is another urban myth.

If you biab, you owe it to yourself to run the grain through the mill twice. Mash times drop and efficiencies rise as it's easier to extract starches from smaller bits and get those starches converted sooner. It only take moments to convert the starches to sugar. The time is in getting the starches out of the grain.

why not put a bag in the cooler than?

NJbeer said:

why not put a bag in the cooler than?

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People do put bags in coolers........ to help maintain temp, but BIAB is fundamentally different from a standard mash in that you use ALL your water, and you don't sparge. Personally I do everything in my brew kettle...... mash & boil, and do what I have to, to insulate it...... foam and blankets. I use an outrageously fine crush.... my second pass is at .010 spacing, and that greatly increases mash efficiency and speed. I get a bit more trub.... but not really enough to bother me. People doing a conventional mash and sparge, can "condition" their grain, moistening it slightly, and the husks will stay intact helping prevent a stuck sparge.

H.W.

people dunk the biab into a second pot of water

I've been doing BIAB for several batches now. I find that with an iodine test it shows conversion within the first 20 minutes usually. I've been crushing with a two roller mill, the lower roller at about .024.

I also do a dunk sparge. It helped me take my efficiency up from below 80%. I think the dunk sparge really helps when crushing fine. The grains seem to hold a lot of liquid in with a fine crush. It didn't seem as necessary when I was using store crushed grains.

Another consequence of BIAB in my situation is that I loose a lot of efficiency to trub in the brew kettle. I usually leave about 1 1/2 gallons of hops, hot break, and whatever whirlflock settles out when I transfer to the fermenter. This brings my brew house efficiency back down to the low 70s. I've never used a conventional mash tun, so I have no way to compare the two.

The question I always wonder, is there any benefit of mashing longer anyway? Once i get the efficiency I'm looking for, (which is usually just under 90%) is there any benefit to a longer mash? More flavor? Other compounds? I've been doing the full hour just in case, but I'd love to shave some time off my brew days.

I wonder why commercial breweries all over the world are wasting those 100s of thousands of man hours every year with 60 minute mashes.

It's really quite baffling. Must be a conspiracy.

RM-MN said:

No, tannins are only released with too high of a pH. If that were not the case, all my beers would taste like tea because I mill as fine as I can with my Corona style mill. The added benefits of milling the grains fine is faster conversion and higher efficiency. I've come to expect 85% efficiency and conversion in under 10 minutes. That's quite a difference from the 60 to 90 minute mashes that most all grain brewers do and a bit higher efficiency than most report.

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+1
pH, and temperature. If you're doing BIAB, your bag is your filter, crush those grains to powder.

jbaysurfer said:

I wonder why commercial breweries all over the world are wasting those 100s of thousands of man hours every year with 60 minute mashes.

It's really quite baffling. Must be a conspiracy.

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Not all of them are. The first time I heard of a commercial brewery doing a 15 minutes mash (on the brewing network) I took notice. And Alaskan Brewing has a device that compresses their mash, effectively "squeezing" the bag, so to speak.
P.S. Don't be a ******.

Aplikowski said:

I've been doing BIAB for several batches now. I find that with an iodine test it shows conversion within the first 20 minutes usually. I've been crushing with a two roller mill, the lower roller at about .024.

I also do a dunk sparge. It helped me take my efficiency up from below 80%. I think the dunk sparge really helps when crushing fine. The grains seem to hold a lot of liquid in with a fine crush. It didn't seem as necessary when I was using store crushed grains.

Another consequence of BIAB in my situation is that I loose a lot of efficiency to trub in the brew kettle. I usually leave about 1 1/2 gallons of hops, hot break, and whatever whirlflock settles out when I transfer to the fermenter. This brings my brew house efficiency back down to the low 70s. I've never used a conventional mash tun, so I have no way to compare the two.

The question I always wonder, is there any benefit of mashing longer anyway? Once i get the efficiency I'm looking for, (which is usually just under 90%) is there any benefit to a longer mash? More flavor? Other compounds? I've been doing the full hour just in case, but I'd love to shave some time off my brew days.

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The short answer is that it makes a difference in attenuation.... The Beta Amylase needs time to do it's job. Alpha acts pretty rapidly.

I've been experimenting with extremely short mashes..... as little as 10 minutes. The only thing I can see is reduced attenuation. With my 10 minute mash, I finished about .005 on my final gravity, or about 1% less alcohol than normal. This of course raises the sweetness due to unfermentable sugars. As a consequence, I reduced the amount of crystal considerably, and used a much darker crystal. I used 120 instead of 60, and used half as much. This may be pointless because CR120 is less fermentable than CR60. I'm interested however in how the flavor compares between the two at the same recipe SRM.
I'm paying 50 cents a pound for two row, and $1.75 for crystal. I also cut out the carapils completely as the higher residuals should give the body and head I need. I won't know the results for a few weeks though.

I use an ultra fine crush... .010, and get more trub also..... but not a huge amount, and yes it does hurt efficiency........There's always a trade off.

My current thinking is the "unattended mash"....... Dough in to hot tap water, and set a timer and go to bed.......... About 2 hours before you get up, the timer kicks a hotplate on, and your pump to recirculate. A PID controller takes it to mash temp and holds it. In the morning, you are ready to go to boil. This would allow you to work with a course grind (LHBS Grind), and mash as long as you wanted to...... one hour, 2, 3, etc...


H.W.

I have ninjaed my grain more than a few batches. I biab and have found it to help.


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Owly055 said:

The short answer is that it makes a difference in attenuation.... The Beta Amylase needs time to do it's job. Alpha acts pretty rapidly.

I've been experimenting with extremely short mashes..... as little as 10 minutes. The only thing I can see is reduced attenuation. With my 10 minute mash, I finished about .005 on my final gravity, or about 1% less alcohol than normal. This of course raises the sweetness due to unfermentable sugars. As a consequence, I reduced the amount of crystal considerably, and used a much darker crystal. I used 120 instead of 60, and used half as much. This may be pointless because CR120 is less fermentable than CR60. I'm interested however in how the flavor compares between the two at the same recipe SRM.
I'm paying 50 cents a pound for two row, and $1.75 for crystal. I also cut out the carapils completely as the higher residuals should give the body and head I need. I won't know the results for a few weeks though.

I use an ultra fine crush... .010, and get more trub also..... but not a huge amount, and yes it does hurt efficiency........There's always a trade off.

My current thinking is the "unattended mash"....... Dough in to hot tap water, and set a timer and go to bed.......... About 2 hours before you get up, the timer kicks a hotplate on, and your pump to recirculate. A PID controller takes it to mash temp and holds it. In the morning, you are ready to go to boil. This would allow you to work with a course grind (LHBS Grind), and mash as long as you wanted to...... one hour, 2, 3, etc...


H.W.

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Was this reduced attenuation due to the shorter mash or due to the method you used to shorten the time? You may have to do this experiment over a few times to see if that changes. Try a couple batches where you dough in at strike temp and let the mash sit for the 10 minutes and see if that changes anything.

RM-MN said:

Was this reduced attenuation due to the shorter mash or due to the method you used to shorten the time? You may have to do this experiment over a few times to see if that changes. Try a couple batches where you dough in at strike temp and let the mash sit for the 10 minutes and see if that changes anything.

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It seems extremely unlikely that heating from 130 up to strike temp and holding it for 10 minutes there would reduce attenuation as compared to doughing in at strike temp... either way it get's 10 minutes at strike temp.

H.W.

Aplikowski said:

Another consequence of BIAB in my situation is that I loose a lot of efficiency to trub in the brew kettle. I usually leave about 1 1/2 gallons of hops, hot break, and whatever whirlflock settles out when I transfer to the fermenter. This brings my brew house efficiency back down to the low 70s. I've never used a conventional mash tun, so I have no way to compare the two.

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That seems like an awful lot to leave behind! I BIAB and seldom leave behind more than a quart. If I have a lot of sediment left in the last gallon, sometimes I'll just drain it into a couple of sanitized half gallon mason jars, cap and cold crash them overnight, and pour off the clear wort into the fermenter the next morning.

Putting that last little bit into something to settle is not a bad idea. I have tried leaving it in the kettle for several hours before I transfer. That really helped as it compacted nicely.

For now I've just upped my batch size to make up for the loss. It ends up being a couple extra dollars worth of grain. It offends my sensibilities a bit to be wasteful, but it also saves me all the monkey business of extending my brew day to settle things.

Freeze it and use it for yeast starters. As long as it gets boiled again before you use it its pretty much just free extract.

ong said:

That seems like an awful lot to leave behind! I BIAB and seldom leave behind more than a quart. If I have a lot of sediment left in the last gallon, sometimes I'll just drain it into a couple of sanitized half gallon mason jars, cap and cold crash them overnight, and pour off the clear wort into the fermenter the next morning.

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I just transferred a 2 gallon fine crush brew to my crash container after fermenting. It looks like I will probably lose one bottle......... or a bit less due to increased trub. My normal yield would be 14 half liter bottles. I expect 13 and a little bit. That is a significant "expense". On the other hand, my brewhouse efficiency was right at 90%, compared to a typical 75-80%. My calculator says that it is a wash at worst, a gain at best, in terms of grain used for beer produced....... about a 9% reduction in yield. It's really a non-issue as far as I'm concerned.


H.W.

Alright guys I am doing extract with various crystals. Would I get more out of the special grains if crushed?

ChelisHubby said:

Alright guys I am doing extract with various crystals. Would I get more out of the special grains if crushed?

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It looks like that is the consensus!

Thanks I guess I can justify a grain mill of some sort!

ChelisHubby said:

Thanks I guess I can justify a grain mill of some sort!

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It isn't very hard to justify a mill when you buy one of these. I hand crank mine but others have motorized theirs. http://www.discounttommy.com/p-189-...er-for-wheat-grains-or-use-as-a-nut-mill.aspx

Once you have your own mill you'll find that it is nice to be able to control the milling quality and you can buy grains in bulk for a considerable discount. It doesn't take long to recoup the cost of a mill. If you make large batches or brew frequently, you might want a better mill to speed up the milling.

RM-MN said:

It isn't very hard to justify a mill when you buy one of these. I hand crank mine but others have motorized theirs. http://www.discounttommy.com/p-189-...er-for-wheat-grains-or-use-as-a-nut-mill.aspx

Once you have your own mill you'll find that it is nice to be able to control the milling quality and you can buy grains in bulk for a considerable discount. It doesn't take long to recoup the cost of a mill. If you make large batches or brew frequently, you might want a better mill to speed up the milling.

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My cost went from $1.75 per pound for grain down to 50 cents a pound...... it doesn't take long to recover my investment at that price!

I don't however understand why an extract brewer buying some crystal malts from the local homebrew store wouldn't have the grains milled there..... at least here it's free.

H.W.

Owly055 said:

My cost went from $1.75 per pound for grain down to 50 cents a pound...... it doesn't take long to recover my investment at that price!

I don't however understand why an extract brewer buying some crystal malts from the local homebrew store wouldn't have the grains milled there..... at least here it's free.

H.W.

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I think he's going for the EXTRA mill - the second run.

They do mill the grains but if a finer mill or crush will give me more flavor from the grain without tannin production I think it could be good.

ChelisHubby said:

They do mill the grains but if a finer mill or crush will give me more flavor from the grain without tannin production I think it could be good.

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While everyone is throwing theroy, you are the LUCKY ONE who has the opportunity to put this all to test, crush those fancy grains to oblivion, and report back to the quality of your product right here on this thread Please do not let opportunity go to waste

Well Canman we will have to wait a while as it looks like the mills are not cheap and the missus says I am wasting time and money!

ChelisHubby said:

Well Canman we will have to wait a while as it looks like the mills are not cheap and the missus says I am wasting time and money!

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$25, $3.99 more and it arrives tomorrow. This puppy will destroy your grains and with a small trip to the hardware store, you can use your drill at home to create something automated!

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000U5NZ4I/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1