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Old 02-12-2013, 02:44 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by broadbill View Post
I'm enjoying watching this thread swing around to same points made in the previous thread.
Yes, and I am sorry about that! I don't think any of us mean to derail the thread about the experiment. There are some scientists on here, though, making suggestions to make the experiment meaningful, and I think that they made some valid points that should be taken into consideration. This is a lot of work, and a lot of data, and so it would make sense to have a proper format before anyone does this.
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Old 02-12-2013, 02:45 PM   #22
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When they both come out with the same results, not sure flipping a coin of which tastes better shows anything - when they both taste equally good, bad, or average.
Missed this earlier. It's at the heart of hypothesis testing. You can't prove a hypothesis such as: Beer made with olive oil tastes of olive oil. You can only show that the null hypothesis: Beer made with olive oil doesn't taste any different from beer made with conventional aeration is an unlikely explanation for the data you collect. If the null hypothesis is true you might as well flip a coin because tasting isn't going to tell you anything. What you are really testing is how often the panelists have to flip a coin or choose the different beer by any other random means such as picking the cup nearest to them or the one they tasted first.
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Old 02-12-2013, 03:23 PM   #23
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Yes, and I am sorry about that! I don't think any of us mean to derail the thread about the experiment. There are some scientists on here, though, making suggestions to make the experiment meaningful, and I think that they made some valid points that should be taken into consideration. This is a lot of work, and a lot of data, and so it would make sense to have a proper format before anyone does this.
Don't be sorry, it is a good point.
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Old 02-13-2013, 04:04 AM   #24
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You won't taste the OO. To make that the goal, and not doing a triangle blind test would make the experiment relatively meaningless.

The goal should be to see if OO is indeed a good sub for aeration. In order to see if that happens, a triangle test should be done. Otherwise, the experiment would be invalid.
The field of "Did anyone taste OO" should not be there. Or, if it is left in, then the rest of the results for said post should be ignored and disqualified from this thread.

Anyone who puts that much OO in their beer didn't read/understand the thesis.
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Old 02-13-2013, 12:10 PM   #25
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Adding olive oil does have flavor effects - the MBAA paper indicate that the beer becomes more estery - and it would be interesting to check on that. One of the nice features of a triangle test is that you can have panelists, after they have picked the odd beer, answer a series of other questions such as
Is the odd beer more or less sweet than the others?
Does the odd beer taste more like olive oil than the others?
Is the odd beer more bitter than the others?
Does the odd beer taste fruitier than the others?
Does the odd beer have more diacetyl than the others?
etc.

By doing this you can determine whether the OO beers are statistically significantly different tasting and if so along which flavor axis (including an olive oil taste axis).

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Old 02-13-2013, 02:41 PM   #26
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I think AJ is playing devil’s advocate. Maybe it’s a sneaky null hypothesis thing.

Two drops is a little less than .1 ml. In 19L of beer, that’s half a part per million. Plus it’s added to the starter and metabolized by the yeast. Any remaining olive oil has to be way below the taste threshold.

I would think asking about olive oil would bias the survey.

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Old 02-13-2013, 02:48 PM   #27
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Two drops is a little less than .1 ml. In 19L of beer, that’s half a part per million. Plus it’s added to the starter and metabolized by the yeast.
has it be directly shown that the yeast metabolizes it? Or is this conjecture?

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I would think asking about olive oil would bias the survey.
It only biases the second half of the survey (asking how it is different); It would not put bias in the first half where the taster is asked if they are different in the first place.
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Old 02-13-2013, 03:12 PM   #28
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has it be directly shown that the yeast metabolizes it? Or is this conjecture?
In theory, yes the yeast can metabolize it. My question is do they have access to it? Does the oil disperse well enough into the wort so the yeast have access to it? If it just floats on top, it won't be taken up very rapidly by the yeast.

I did a few experimental beers with sauteing hops pellets in oil (for rapid isomerization) and then adding the cooked hops and oil to the mash (I found out that much of the bitterness went out into the oil - talk about bitter oil!). To deal with the oil I added lecithin to emulsify the oil (it did disappear from the surface). I don't know how much of the oil got trapped in the mash tun, but there were no head retention issues in the final product - SIX tablespoons of oil went into the mash.

This was before the OO experiment so I didn't pay attention to how the fermentation proceeded
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Old 02-13-2013, 06:04 PM   #29
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In the thesis, they used between 1 mg olive oil/67 million cells and 1 mg olive oil/25 billion cells.

Is 1 or 2 drops in a 5 gallon batch comparable to these numbers?

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Old 02-13-2013, 10:29 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by ajdelange View Post
Adding olive oil does have flavor effects - the MBAA paper indicate that the beer becomes more estery - and it would be interesting to check on that. One of the nice features of a triangle test is that you can have panelists, after they have picked the odd beer, answer a series of other questions such as
Is the odd beer more or less sweet than the others?
Does the odd beer taste more like olive oil than the others?
Is the odd beer more bitter than the others?
Does the odd beer taste fruitier than the others?
Does the odd beer have more diacetyl than the others?
etc.

By doing this you can determine whether the OO beers are statistically significantly different tasting and if so along which flavor axis (including an olive oil taste axis).
Yes, there are flavors that can be generated by the addition of OO. However, these flavors are not Olive Oil flavors. As you said, there are esters produced from adding OO. However, these esters are created by the yeast from the difference in environment/nutrients (vs. aeration), not from direct OO flavors.
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