Will Sour Mashing Ruin Your Mash Tun For Future Beers?

The infamous question that has people on both sides. I have read comments in other threads both ways but have not found a thread that discusses this with reasons and furthermore real life experience. So here is the ultimate question


When doing a sour mash, can you use your every batch Mash Tun? Or should you have a special mash tun for your Sour Mash beers?


and go....

Well, it depends: If bacteria are magical, then yes. If no, you can use boiling water and a sanitizer of your choice.

What could be in there that bleach won't kill? Don't just spray some Star San on it and call it a day, be reasonably thorough and you'll be fine.

There's no point in sanitizing or bleaching anything. Just give it a good rinse and rub down, and you'll be fine. Mashing for an hour won't give lacto or anything else enough time to affect your beer. Time is the key in sour mashes.

That's a good point, though I'd rather not have it sitting around covered in lacto for cross-contamination purposes.

My mash tun is my kettle, so I don't think about tun sanitation. If I were to sour mash I'd do it in buckets.

It's always covered in lacto? Grain is covered in bacteria.

I swear sometimes people take sanitation way to far...

Your house is covered in wild yeast and bacteria you will never get rid of. This stuff isn't magic. One spore of wild yeast won't crawl into your beer and ruin the whole batch. I knew a guy that sanitized his mash tun after every use. He also sprayed Star San on his hands before opening his brewing bucket. You need to properly sanitize your equipment to keep beer contamination free. You have to take the proper steps. Like buying a car with air bags and buckling up in case you get in a car crash. Using sanitizer in your mash tun is like not driving a car because you could crash it.

Anyways sorry for the rant. Lacto won't last at mashing temps ~150. That's why sour mashes are done at 100-120.

fearwig said:

That's a good point, though I'd rather not have it sitting around covered in lacto for cross-contamination purposes.

My mash tun is my kettle, so I don't think about tun sanitation. If I were to sour mash I'd do it in buckets.

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Well then that makes absolutely no sense. Boiling will kill everything in there.

thisisbeer said:

It's always covered in lacto? Grain is covered in bacteria.

I swear sometimes people take sanitation way to far...

Your house is covered in wild yeast and bacteria you will never get rid of. This stuff isn't magic. I knew a guy that sanitized his mash tun after every use. He also sprayed Star San on his hands before opening his brewing bucket.

Anyways sorry for the rant. Lacto won't last at mashing temps ~150. That's why sour mashes are done at 100-120.

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Sounds like the Youtube guy Take Some Advice.

YouTube guy? I don't follow.

https://www.youtube.com/user/TakeSomeAdvice/videos

This guy's nuts. Some of the worst advice out there.

I can see what you mean by just looking at one video. But I'm curious as to why my advice is bad. Do you know of any reason to sanitize your mash tun that I dont? I rinse it after each use but I have never once sanitized. I'm not saying using good sanitization practices is a bad thing at all, but some people take it really overboard when it comes to brett and bacteria. Like not fermenting a beer with brett in the same room as a regular beer. It's a waste of effort.

I'm not an infection nut at all, but I would avoid growing conspicuously huge colonies of beer-loving bacteria on my equipment in between brews.

Infection risk often comes down to how big the exposure is in terms of cell count, which is the same reason people who worry about airborne infection are off their rocker.

That's the the thing. A rinsed out mash tun isn't exactly the best condition to grow beer loving bacteria colonies. Every mash anybody has ever done has lacto bacteria in it. But most people don't sanitize there mash tun. I understand the larger colony in a sour mash but all the bacteria isn't just clinging to the side of the mash tun. I have just rinsed after my sour mashes and have never had a problem. Am I playing with fire here?

Everything before the boil is uneccessary to sanitize. The boil is doing just that, sanitizing. No lacto or any other bacteria living in your mash tun will survive that process, so why bother sanitizing your mash tun, even after sour mashing?

Also, thisisbeer is right. All grain is already covered in lacto, the only reason your beer soured in the sour mash is because you left it at ideal conditions for that lacto to grow for a long time (relative to a regular mash). Even if you don't do a sour mash, you're still introducing lacto to your tun.

If you're worried about off flavors from some bacteria being in your mash tun, I have no idea if that is something to worry about, but I would imagine you would have to actually be able to see the culture in your tun for that to matter.

thisisbeer said:

I can see what you mean by just looking at one video. But I'm curious as to why my advice is bad. Do you know of any reason to sanitize your mash tun that I dont? I rinse it after each use but I have never once sanitized. I'm not saying using good sanitization practices is a bad thing at all, but some people take it really overboard when it comes to brett and bacteria. Like not fermenting a beer with brett in the same room as a regular beer. It's a waste of effort.

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I don't think he was taking issue with your advice. Rather, he was equating the dude you said you once knew who made it a practice to sanitize his mash tun with the OCD/misguided Youtube guy.

And to add to the convo... I would never, ever, be compelled to sanitize my mash tun. I'd prolly give it a good wash with soap and water if the dog p*ssed in it or something like that, but sanitize it between uses? No, the boil will take care of that.

Somehow I was imagining a mash tun covered in sour grains plopped next to your fermenter. Myeah, I guess, rinsed would be fine, don't mind me. When I used a cooler tun I would always keep equipment in it, so I guess I was thinking from a more paranoid perspective.

thisisbeer said:

I can see what you mean by just looking at one video. But I'm curious as to why my advice is bad. Do you know of any reason to sanitize your mash tun that I dont? I rinse it after each use but I have never once sanitized. I'm not saying using good sanitization practices is a bad thing at all, but some people take it really overboard when it comes to brett and bacteria. Like not fermenting a beer with brett in the same room as a regular beer. It's a waste of effort.

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Sorry, not you. I was referring to the guy you mentioned that sanitized his hands before he opened his fermenter.

I understand now lol

No reason to apologize as that was my fault. It's like texting, there is never enough emotion to understand what people mean.

I would say that the regular cleaning you do (or should do) for your mash tun should be sufficient. Even if you had lacto in there (or anything else), you are mashing for 60-90 minutes, not nearly enough time for a sour flavor to develop. The only places I think are worth making sure are clean (since you can't see them) are the bulkheads/drawtubes/etc. They can harbor some foul looking stuff if you don't keep up with your maintenance. I've seen some interesting things come out first vorlauf.

I would keep bleach out entirely, and starsan is probably overkill - but if it makes you feel better, go for it.

Awesome! sounds like the general consensus is you do NOT need a different Mash tun to sour beers.

What about the rumor that if you sour mash for a couple days that bugs can seep into the plastic cooler mash walls. What are your opinions on that?

First they would be killed in the boil afterwards even if they did. Second the bugs won't work well at mash temps of 150 degrees and can't work fast enough to sour wort in a 60 minute mash. These bugs are always in your mash tun even if you don't sour mash. Because dried grain from your LHBS is covered in them. You can start a sour mash by throwing in fresh grains after your mash when you get the temp under 120 degrees. That will put the bugs you need in there. So even if you don't do a sour mash the bugs are already there. Also they are not magic and they do not "seep" anywhere. In plastic they can get in scratches and make it hard to be reached with sanitizer. So that makes them harder to get rid of. But that goes for regular yeast to. I have heard of start up breweries using large plastic fermenters choose to use only one strain of yeast for all there production beer. But that's all post Boil. Don't worry about your mash tun.

Joe_CraftBeerTraders said:

Awesome! sounds like the general consensus is you do NOT need a different Mash tun to sour beers.

What about the rumor that if you sour mash for a couple days that bugs can seep into the plastic cooler mash walls. What are your opinions on that?

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It still goes back to the fact that when you go back to use it for a normal mash (60-90 min) the contact time is so minimal that it won't have time to sour.

Higher-end mash temps are even enough to pasteurize, and mash out temp (170) pasteurizes within seconds. So even if sanitation were a concern here (as we've agreed, it's not), bacteria can seep into pores all they want, they can't get away from heat.

Realistically they can't get away from sanitizers that way, either, plastic is not significantly more difficult to sanitize than any other surface, it's just harder to clean.

I love this! You guys covered every aspect as to why you do not need to use a different Mash Tun for sour beers.

1: Souring of mash due to bugs occur at temperatures 100-120F and for long duration's. Standard Mash occur 148-165F and for short duration's. Therefore it is not the right temps nor the right duration for souring to occur.

2: All grains already are covered with bug, whether a sour mash or not. Your mash is already filled with them so what is the difference.

3: Any bug introduced pre boil will be killed off in the boil and will not affect the beer while fermenting (given proper post boil sanitation)

4: Properly clean the Mash Tun as if it was any other. There is no need to bleach or sanitize the mash.

5: Don't waste your money on getting a separate Mash Tun!!!


Thanks guys!

Joe

Just another data point... St. Arnold in Houston recently added a Berliner Weisse to their year round selection. They sour mash in their brewhouse for 48 hours. Granted they are not using plastic coolers for their tuns, but it shuts their brewing down for 48 hours while the mash sours. Then they clean and brew the regular beers without incident.

The beer, Boiler Room is not bad. Very sessionable at 3.5 ABV and while I would like more tartness, I can see enjoying several when it gets hotter here...

Chef Jay

I'm looking forward to a few Boiler Rooms when the temps get up in the high 90's here.

Another Pearland Brewer. I'm finding more and more of us! I have met 6 on here and started a thread to find more Pearland Brewers. It got 130+ views but not very many comments. Maybe we just aren't very vocal in this town?

chefjaypeek said:

Just another data point... St. Arnold in Houston recently added a Berliner Weisse to their year round selection. They sour mash in their brewhouse for 48 hours. Granted they are not using plastic coolers for their tuns, but it shuts their brewing down for 48 hours while the mash sours. Then they clean and brew the regular beers without incident.

The beer, Boiler Room is not bad. Very sessionable at 3.5 ABV and while I would like more tartness, I can see enjoying several when it gets hotter here...

Chef Jay

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Ooh, my brother's in Pearland and we'll probably be going to one of St. Arnold's Thursday afternoon open houses while I'm visiting him this summer. Good to know!

Okay, Pearland brewers PM me or something, don't want to jack this thread any more than already done. Point me to the Pearland brewers thread, and I'll look there, I've just missed it.

Chef Jay

Check out the thread here

Like I said over a hundred views but not many comments. Comment on the thread. It would be awesome for a view of us to get together. I have wanted to meet some local homebrewers.

I have a seperate 5 gal not for the fact of contamination. But to limit the exposure to oxygen in the head space.