Tinkering with a saison recipe...

I have a recipe for a saison that I am about to brew for the 6th time. I put the recipe together when I first started brewing before I had a real grasp on what all my ingredients were doing. Long story short, I've always used 8 oz. of crystal 20 (out of an 11.25 lb grist). I was considering changing that to 8 oz. of Munich 20L to get the color but lose the crystal.

Any thoughts. I know crystal is generally considered a no-no in saisons.

Saisons are a pretty loose style, but crystal malts are not normally used. Munich in a saison works great. You can even add more and it will work great.

I sometimes even add a some wheat to my saisons. I often add a lb of Munich and 2 lbs of wheat for a basic saison recipe.

Cool. I think I will give it a shot. I use wheat in mine as well. And rye. Rye and saisons are like peanut butter and jelly IMHO...

Krid said:

Cool. I think I will give it a shot. I use wheat in mine as well. And rye. Rye and saisons are like peanut butter and jelly IMHO...

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Rye is also very good. That reminds me that I think I do have a rye saison in the fridge. MMMM Might have to open it up soon.

rye, oats, wheat, all kinds of things, if it grows in a field in the countryside it belongs in saison. As far as the crystal goes if you mash low and long enough you probably won't be able to tell the difference. I just made a hefeweizen with 8 oz crystal 10 in the mash and it still finished at 1.003, purely from mashing for 90 mins at about 146F-148F Good luck (thinking I should bottle my rye saison pretty soon too)

RachmaelBenApplebaum said:

rye, oats, wheat, all kinds of things, if it grows in a field in the countryside it belongs in saison.

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That was kind of my thinking. The "kitchen sink" approach to a saison recipe...

Krid said:

That was kind of my thinking. The "kitchen sink" approach to a saison recipe...

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It's kind of unfortunate, but one of my best saisons was a product of me wanting to use up a bunch of odd malts I had sitting around. You know, a pound of this, two pounds of that, kind of thing. I think I must have used 6-7 types of malt in that recipe. It's bad, because I don't want to have to go through all the trouble of sourcing those different malts again. But, it does support the whole "(almost) anything goes" approach to saison brewing.

... I think it's got-a have some oats and wheat in it... never Crystal because as it ages it can take on a raisen flavor.... Unless that is what you want...

Then like everyone says... it is a "pretty loose style"...

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dropping the crystal in favor of the munich is an excellent move, IMO. once it's ready to drink do let us know your thoughts on the substitution.

Really turning out to be one of my favorites to brew because of the certain lack of guidelines. Seeing as it was brewed in farmhouses to quench the thirst of tired workers it definitely has an improvisational "whatever works" kind of feel to it. I do have to say that simplicity is always a virtue, however, and getting really complex with your grist can make things get lost in the mix. Munich sounds like a fantastic addition btw, give it a nice orange-gold hue. Report back when it's ready! Pictures too I'm a sucker for beer porn.

Jolly Pumpkin Bam Biere has 3% C80 in it, so maybe it is ok to use crystal malt in a saison after all. Never get any raison flavor in that one as it ages. I've been using 4.5% CaraMunich I in my low grav summer saison.

I made a saison with a box of shredded wheat cereal and brewed it in my garage when it was 100 degrees every day, another with Thyme as my late hop, and have one bottle-carbing now that was made with buckwheat and aged on Spanish Cedar. Ryane made one with 2lbs biscuit malt. Oldsock (themadfermentationist.com) made one with rosemary, orange peel, blackened raisins and Special B. So yeah, it's a pretty loose style (Unless the BJCP gets involved). To me, if it's made with a saison yeast, then it's a saison. It just needs the proper set of adjectives as part of the title.

TNGabe said:

Jolly Pumpkin Bam Biere has 3% C80 in it, so maybe it is ok to use crystal malt in a saison after all. Never get any raison flavor in that one as it ages.

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that's because bam biere has bugs in it - brett B, brett L and lacto. you're not tasting the crystal because the bugs have eaten most of what is typically left behind in non-wild beers (long-chain dextrines) and is replaced with funk and sourness. so, in my books, BB's use of crystal is a non-use since practically none of it is left behind. in fact, i wouldn't be surprised if Ron Jeffries used the C80 specifically to make sure the bugs had something left to eat after the sacc.

so, for me, this maintains my "no crystal in saison" worldview

I brewed it last Friday, swapping the crystal 20 for munich. The original is one of my favorite beers, but I'll post in a couple weeks when its all bottle conditioned and ready to go.

Thanks for all the advise.