Scottish Wee Heavy Recipe, what do you think?

Hello everyone,

This is my first thread on Homebrewtalk so I hope I do this correctly.

I wanted to brew a Scottish Wee Heavy for the Winter time and started putting a recipe together and was wondering what the community thought or if you had any pointers. I'd love it if it came out like Old Chub or something similar. Here is what I have so far...

5.5 Gallon All Grain batch / 90 min boil

13.5 lbs of 2-Row Brewers Malt
1 lbs of Caramel Malt 120L
1 lbs of Carapils Malt
12 oz of Munich Malt 10L
8 oz of Caramel Malt 40L
8 oz of Special B
4 oz of Black Malt
3.5 oz of Smoked Malt
2 oz of Peated Malt

1 oz of Nugget @ 60 min 14% AA

Scottish Ale 1728 Wyeast

Thats a lot of carapils. You also have two types of smoked malt, peated and smoked... so be sure that you want 5.5oz of the smoky stuff. A little goes a long way with smoked malts. I'm not sure Special B belongs in a wee heavy, but I don't think its too out of character.

If you want the smoke flavor, 5.5 oz won't be too much. I did a Ten Penny Ale clone, the first batch with 3 oz of German Smoked Malt. It didn't have enough smoke flavor. I upped the second batch to 6 oz, and the smokiness was spot on and incredibly drinkable.

I would drop the special B and add a few oz of roasted barley

There is zero chance I wouldnt drink this beer
unless you suck at brewing but thats a different thread.

seriously why so much carapils?

Too many malts imo, you won't taste them. If you're going to add peated, then don't bother with smoked. That much peated will completely drown out that much smoked. I would just take that cara and add a pound or two to your base malt. You won't need any cara at that point

Thanks everyone! This is exactly the input I am looking for.

In my research I have read that carapils will help with head retention on a beer and that typically about 5% is a good ratio to use. That's the reason I have 1 lbs of carapils, its 5% of my recipe.

As for the smoke flavor, I'm not looking for a "overpowering" amount of smokiness, like a smoked porter, just a hint. I have never used peated malt, but I have heard of the controversy of whether or not the belong in a scottish ale. Would yall recommend dropping the smoked malt and maybe using 3 oz of peated malt? Should I add roasted barley as well?

The Special B I had seen in a few other recipes, but I agree with yall and will drop that from the recipe.

Keep the comments coming! I also wanted to ask about doing a party gile with this brew. Would this be a good recipe to do it with? And for the second batch can I do it as say a extract and add dme to make a full beer?

Thanks everyone! Cheers!

Also agree to go either peated or smoked. I would not do both. Consider using Golden Promise as your base malt. Might as well use the real deal.

Also, consider keeping half the batch for next winter. The Wee Heavy I brewed around this time last year has really turned the corner in the last month or two. Really good brew now, whereas I thought it was okay before.

solbes said:

Also agree to go either peated or smoked. I would not do both. Consider using Golden Promise as your base malt. Might as well use the real deal.

Also, consider keeping half the batch for next winter. The Wee Heavy I brewed around this time last year has really turned the corner in the last month or two. Really good brew now, whereas I thought it was okay before.

Click to expand...

I bottled my first two brews before jumping right into kegging lol. But since I have started doing all grain I have really been more impressed by my beer so I wanted to start cellaring some beer. I now have a little setup to bottle from the keg so I can keep a six pack to try the next year. So Ill definatly do that! Was your recipe similar to this one?

You should also put your patience hat on because i think it will take a minute before this brew really hits a stride.
Make sure you update the thread after you brew.

tahmores said:

... I now have a little setup to bottle from the keg so I can keep a six pack to try the next year. So Ill definatly do that! Was your recipe similar to this one?

Click to expand...

Mine did not use peated or smoked. It has taken on a smoky flavor b/c of the kettle carmelizing process (boiled 1.25 gallons of first wort on stovetop down to around a ~ 1 quart and then added back to main boil). 12 lbs Golden Promise, 1 lb of DME (BIAB kettle was full), 6 oz C120, 3 oz Roasted Barley, hopped to 22 IBU with 60 minute addition only. 90 minute boil. 1.073 OG, 1.017 FG

I'm sure it would be good but looks a little complicated. Have a look at the traquair house ale recipes floating around. Just base malt, a touch of roasted barley and caramelisation of the first runnings. Makes a great beer.

http://www.traquair.co.uk/content/traquair-house-brewery

http://www.skotrat.com/skotrat/recipes/ale/scottish/recipes/10.html

tahmores said:

Thanks everyone! This is exactly the input I am looking for.

In my research I have read that carapils will help with head retention on a beer and that typically about 5% is a good ratio to use. That's the reason I have 1 lbs of carapils, its 5% of my recipe.

As for the smoke flavor, I'm not looking for a "overpowering" amount of smokiness, like a smoked porter, just a hint. I have never used peated malt, but I have heard of the controversy of whether or not the belong in a scottish ale. Would yall recommend dropping the smoked malt and maybe using 3 oz of peated malt? Should I add roasted barley as well?

The Special B I had seen in a few other recipes, but I agree with yall and will drop that from the recipe.

Keep the comments coming! I also wanted to ask about doing a party gile with this brew. Would this be a good recipe to do it with? And for the second batch can I do it as say a extract and add dme to make a full beer?

Thanks everyone! Cheers!

Click to expand...

I would keep the special b but drop the 40 crystal, but that's just me. If you just want a hint of smoke, add smoked malt. 5 oz might give you what you're looking for. It's a surprisingly mellow malt. Between black and 120 crystal, I wouldn't bother adding roasted barley. Again, just my 2 cents

PastorofMuppets said:

You should also put your patience hat on because i think it will take a minute before this brew really hits a stride.
Make sure you update the thread after you brew.

Click to expand...

I agree. Good beer takes time. What would you recommend as a fermentation time? For most of my ales I do 3 weeks primary, 10 days secondary, and cold crash for two days.

THe smoked flavor is supposed to come from the yeast so I wouldn't really include any malt that does that. Personally I like the flavor of carapils but in a beer like this I dunno if it's really appropriate. I would add in maybe a half pound of Honey malt and Aroma malt to help this beer out. You should look up Jamil's recipe for some ideas.

DavidJP said:

...I'm sure it would be good but looks a little complicated. Have a look at the traquair house ale recipes floating around.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the recipe. I was thinking of doing a Scottish Heavy 70/-like this. Seems to be the popular way to do it.

TheHairyHop said:

...If you just want a hint of smoke, add smoked malt. 5 oz might give you what you're looking for. It's a surprisingly mellow malt. Between black and 120 crystal, I wouldn't bother adding roasted barley. Again, just my 2 cents

Click to expand...

I think your right. Think i'll drop the pleated grain and bump the smoked up to 5 oz.

Hopper5000 said:

...I would add in maybe a half pound of Honey malt and Aroma malt to help this beer out. You should look up Jamil's recipe for some ideas.

Click to expand...

Wow! Thanks for the recipe's, that's a great resource. Is there much of a difference in Munich malt and Aromatic (munich) malt really?

Here is my updated recipe...

5.5 Gallon All Grain batch / 90 min boil / Caramelize first running

13.5 lbs of Golden Promise
1 lbs of Caramel Malt 120L
12 oz of Carapils Malt
12 oz of Aromatic (Munich) Malt
8 oz of Caramel Malt 40L
5 oz of Smoked Malt
4 oz of Black Malt

1 oz of Nugget @ 60 min 13% AA

Scottish Ale 1728 Wyeast

OG=1.085
IBU=34
Color=24L

DavidJP said:

I'm sure it would be good but looks a little complicated. Have a look at the traquair house ale recipes floating around. Just base malt, a touch of roasted barley and caramelisation of the first runnings. Makes a great beer.

http://www.traquair.co.uk/content/traquair-house-brewery

http://www.skotrat.com/skotrat/recipes/ale/scottish/recipes/10.html

Click to expand...

I hope you're right. I brewed a 3G batch about 10 days ago..will bottle in another 10 days. How long do you think I will have to wait ,after bottling, before it is drinkable?

For what it's worth: traditionally, the dextrins in a wee heavy would come from high mash temps rather than carapils malt. An example of Scottish frugality. So, if I where planning on mashing high anyway, I would save the money on the carapils.

Gold_Robber said:

I hope you're right. I brewed a 3G batch about 10 days ago..will bottle in another 10 days. How long do you think I will have to wait ,after bottling, before it is drinkable?

Click to expand...

My 9% Wee Heavy is good now, 8 months after brewing. It was still kind of hot until my most recent tasting. I plan on giving it out to friends and family for Christmas.

http://www.brewtoad.com/recipes/wee-heavy-53/brew-logs

I only added crystal malts because I didn't feel like doing the extra kettle carmelization step

Gold_Robber said:

I hope you're right. I brewed a 3G batch about 10 days ago..will bottle in another 10 days. How long do you think I will have to wait ,after bottling, before it is drinkable?

Click to expand...

Benefits from a bit of aging. I have 5 gallons from that recipe thats been 3 weeks in primary and a week in a keg at room temp conditioning, hoping to sample toward the end of Nov.
Last time i brewed this it took a while to get to best condition, if bottling I'd wait at least a month, preferably 2.

roastquake said:

For what it's worth: traditionally, the dextrins in a wee heavy would come from high mash temps rather than carapils malt. An example of Scottish frugality. So, if I where planning on mashing high anyway, I would save the money on the carapils.

Click to expand...

This is a great point. I think you have convinced me, I'm going to drop the carapils from the grain bill.

I say skip the carapils and just mash high. I would mash in at about 156. Plenty of unfermentables.

I agree that you have the kitchen sink in there right now. I'm sure you believe each malt serves a purpose, but what would end up shining through in spades is the smoke. You could have lots of great flavors in your BBQ sauce, but if you dump in a lot of liquid smoke then that's all you'll taste.

Here may be a big hint for you! If you have a copy of Jamil's Brewing Classic Styles, look on page 124. He has a few hints on making Scottish brews and one of the biggest is not using peat smoked malts to get the smoked flavor one looks for.

Peat is for whisky.

Okay so after I have done some more research I am also cutting out the smoked malt. I'd like to stay close to the traditional recipe but still be a wee bit different lol. I've read that Wyeast 1728 is know for giving a "smokey" flavor to the beer, so I'll see if that brings it thorough. Just three more questions and I might actually be able to be happy with this recipe.

1. Is roasted barley a traditional grain for this brew? Also if so how much?

2. I see many people using Golden Promise and Marris Otter. Should I just stick with Golden Promise or do a combination of both?

3. And lastly, I'd like to do a party gile with this brew, or a second beer from the grain. What are your recommendations, techniques or experiences, to doing a party gile?

I cant thank you all enough. I think I'll be doing this much more often. Probably would have saved my Belgian Pale Ale a couple months ago.

Just realized I was spelling it wrong...Parti Gyle.

1. I've read that small amounts of roasted barley and/or black patent are traditional ingredients, however they are used in such small amounts (1-2 oz per 5 gallons) I would conclude they are strictly used for color adjustment.

2. Golden Promise is the usual malt used for scotch whisky making, therefore a very modern-day Scottish ingredient. Maris Otter is more of an English grain but perfectly suitable for a wee heavy. All in all, both will yield great results and you're unlikely to notice a difference between the two. Interesting fact: Golden Promise is a more recently (60s or 70s) developed varietal of barley that was created through the process of gamma ray mutation, but I cannot recall the "parent" variety at the moment. Regardless, it's not genetically modified, simply rushed through adaptation

3. This WOULD be a good parti gyle brew, but that's a potentially big undertaking. Regardless, Scottish ales have frequently been brewed parti gyle where the first runnings were 80/-, second runnings were 70/-, and third runnings were 60/-. I would personally add a pound or two of grain after you collect your runnings for your wee heavy, do another saccharification rest, and drain your runnings. After collecting your 2nd beer's runnings you can decide if it should be 80, 70, or 60/- scottish ale. Calculate your one and only hop bittering addition based on the estimated OG of the brew and away you go.

I've used 1728 many times, and while there might be something produced that could be construed as smoke, to me it's not what I'd ever call a "smoky" beer. HOWEVER, that's a good thing in my opinion. You don't want a big sipper beer to be overly smoky.

High mash temperatures, kettle carmelization, moderate attenuating and highly flocculant yeast, small percentage of not-too-dark crystal.... these are the variables I would play with to get the sweet maltiness from a wee heavy.

HTH!

1. Is roasted barley a traditional grain for this brew? Also if so how much?

-Yes. just a few ounces to get to the color you want.

2. I see many people using Golden Promise and Marris Otter. Should I just stick with Golden Promise or do a combination of both?

-Given the choice, I would go with Golden Promise because it's Scottish (I used American pale malt in mine, but that's because I buy in bulk) Someone else may comment on the different flavors you'll get from each, but I understand they are similar.

3. And lastly, I'd like to do a party gile with this brew, or a second beer from the grain. What are your recommendations, techniques or experiences, to doing a party gile?

This is exactly what I did, and wouldn't do it again. the small beer wasn't great. If I do it again, it will be after I work out my efficiency issues, both mine had to have the gravities corrected with sugar and DME. My whole process is documented here:http://www.brewtoad.com/recipes/140-wee-heavy-double-mash

stpug said:

...Interesting fact: Golden Promise is a more recently (60s or 70s) developed varietal of barley that was created through the process of gamma ray mutation, but I cannot recall the "parent" variety at the moment. Regardless, it's not genetically modified, simply rushed through adaptation

...I would personally add a pound or two of grain after you collect your runnings for your wee heavy, do another saccharification rest, and drain your runnings. ...

....High mash temperatures, kettle carmelization, moderate attenuating and highly flocculant yeast, small percentage of not-too-dark crystal.... these are the variables I would play with to get the sweet maltiness from a wee heavy.

HTH!

Click to expand...

Interesting stuff about Golden Promise. Learn something new about beer everyday! If I was to do a parti gyle, how would I be able to get roughly 5 gallons of wort through my first running. I traditionally batch sparge, so would I have to mash with more water for a longer time?

roastquake said:

...This is exactly what I did, and wouldn't do it again. the small beer wasn't great. If I do it again, it will be after I work out my efficiency issues, both mine had to have the gravities corrected with sugar and DME. My whole process is documented here:http://www.brewtoad.com/recipes/140-wee-heavy-double-mash

Click to expand...

Im glad you posted this! I actually had a look at your recipe yesterday and your comments made me laugh.
"Next time I brew a wee heavy I'll just use extract, not a long goddamn double mash, this is supposed to be fun, but today was kind of annoying. "
How were you able to get 4 gallons off your first runnings? Here's my "current" recipe. http://www.brewtoad.com/recipes/scottish-wee-heavy-10

tahmores said:

2. I see many people using Golden Promise and Marris Otter. Should I just stick with Golden Promise or do a combination of both?

Click to expand...

I already stated that I used GP in my Wee Heavy, but thought I would throw out a little more insight. I've used GP twice, the other brew being a clone attempt of Surly Furious IPA. Great results both times. I think it has a cleaner and sweeter taste than Marris Otter. It is more malty versus your standard 2 row pale. You want your Wee Heavy/Scotch ale to be a malt bomb IMO.

I have a little more experience with Marris Otter. Brewed an English Bitter, an Irish Red, and a RIS with it. It is very malty like GP, but gives more of a bread or biscuit flavor. For my 50th brew, I have a massive Barley wine planned with Marris Otter grain and Marris Otter LME (filled to the kettle brim). Can't wait to find out how that one turns out a year from now when I start popping bottles.

Best advice is to try both. You are brewing a Scottish beer here, so I say go with Scottish GP malt. Then try some english brews with Marris Otter and you can formulate your own opinions.

tahmores said:

Interesting stuff about Golden Promise. Learn something new about beer everyday! If I was to do a parti gyle, how would I be able to get roughly 5 gallons of wort through my first running. I traditionally batch sparge, so would I have to mash with more water for a longer time?

Click to expand...

Either the no sparge method of using a thinner mash; or the hybrid method of after your standard ratio mash rest you would sparge up to approx 5 gallon runnings; or 1st plus 2nd runnings to get 5 gallons. Parti gyle is not a perfect science and you WILL need to be flexible on brewday. You might be shy some volumes on one or both of your beers (maybe you'll only get 4 gallons of each). You'll want to do some recalculation during your process to adjust for bitterness based on new volume, or boil time to hit a specific gravity.

You can even collect your runnings in separate pots and blend them together in your final brew pots so that you can more accurately hit the gravities you're trying to achieve. This is something they do at Fullers for their ESB and London Pride (also parti gyle).

I would calculate your brewday and then give yourself an additional 3 hour buffer. As long as you're prepared for it and have fun with it, it'll work out fine in the end.

The four gallons was my first runnings and some of the second runnings from the batch sparge. Then I used a portion of that as the mash water in the second mash.

tahmores said:

Okay so after I have done some more research I am also cutting out the smoked malt. I'd like to stay close to the traditional recipe but still be a wee bit different lol. I've read that Wyeast 1728 is know for giving a "smokey" flavor to the beer, so I'll see if that brings it thorough. Just three more questions and I might actually be able to be happy with this recipe.

1. Is roasted barley a traditional grain for this brew? Also if so how much?

2. I see many people using Golden Promise and Marris Otter. Should I just stick with Golden Promise or do a combination of both?

3. And lastly, I'd like to do a party gile with this brew, or a second beer from the grain. What are your recommendations, techniques or experiences, to doing a party gile?

I cant thank you all enough. I think I'll be doing this much more often. Probably would have saved my Belgian Pale Ale a couple months ago.

Click to expand...

IMO "traditional" is a bit of garbage because brewing, malting, and fermenting techniques have changed leaps and bounds in just a short 100 years, let alone longer. Traditional Wee Heavies would have had a smoke flavor because malting techniques weren't nearly as clean and precise as they are now a days and smoke would have definitely drifted into the malting room. A lot of very traditional recipes take this into account by adding smoked malts or smoking things such as peat or juniper under store bought malt. This is also why we don't need to do all of the "rests" that were very common. Our malts are simply better.

Sorry to play devil's advocate, but I felt inclined. Whatever you end up doing, I'm sure you'll be satisfied as long as you don't go overboard or get an infection. I've never gotten "smokey" flavors from Scottish yeast. Maybe you could infer it that way, but I get way more raisin, currant, warm alcohol and yeast funk than anything else.

When you read the term "wee heavy" somewhere, does the voice in your head say it in a heavy Scottish "fat bastard" accent?

Lol maybe

haha you almost have to!

Hey everyone. I'm brewing this weekend. Thought I'd give an update on the recipe I'm going to use and my plan for brew day.
Here is my updated recipe...

5.5 Gallon All Grain batch / 90 min boil / Caramelize first running

8 lbs of Golden Promise
8 lbs of Marris Otter
1 lbs of Caramel Malt 120L
12 oz of Aromatic (Munich) Malt
8 oz of Caramel Malt 40L
4 oz of Roasted Barley

1 oz of Nugget @ 60 min 13% AA

Scottish Ale 1728 Wyeast

OG=1.090
IBU=34
Color=22L

Brew day:
On brew day I plan to brew with a few other. One which will be assisting me. I plan to caramelize the first runnings by boiling them separately for 60 mins. I will still do a batch sparge and try to come up to 6~6.5 gallons (praying for great efficiency). I'll boil for 90 mins, adding the hops at 60, and the separate caramelized wort when it is done with its 60 min boil. Chill. Transfer. Aerate. And pitch a 2000 ml starter.

Fermentation:
My normal is 3 weeks primary, 2 weeks secondary, cold crash 2 days, and keg. I will try and follow this schedule according to my gravity readings.

Final notes:
EXCITED TO BREW!

So what do you guys think?

http://www.brewtoad.com/recipes/scottish-wee-heavy-10

Looks pretty good. Like that you are kettle carmelizing the first runnings. My only comment is that this will come out pretty dark with the kettle carmelizing, 90 minute boil (both of which are traditional), plus the 16 oz of C120, 4 oz of RB, and 8 oz of C40. If you want it dark, then keep it as is. Should taste really great!

I'd caramelize a gallon of your first runnings, not all. I did a wee heavy last weekend that has fermented in about 5 days from 1.090 to 1.018 with wyeast 1728 at 61F carboy temperature (ale pitch per Mr Malty), 99% Golden Promise, 1% English Roasted Barley. The caramelization probably affected the fermentability and I'd be concerned that caramelizing all the first runnings and having specialty malts in the grain bill would end up with a high final gravity.

After you take off your 1 gallon, still sparge to your normal pre-boil volume for a 90 minute boil beacuse the caramelized wort won't be a significant volume anymore. Plan for the caramelization to take 90 minutes.